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What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

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Deidre32

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I'm no longer an atheist...I'd classify myself as an agnostic theist at this point, but there are no choices for that 'status' on here. lol Having said that, to me...God cannot be proven. At best, we can adhere to certain religions of a set of faith beliefs as concepts of God that resonate with us, but no one can 'prove' a deity's existence. I feel that my gravitation back to faith came largely because I wasn't happy as an atheist...there was an explainable void that no matter what I did, seemed to speak to the fact that I missed that connection with something Unknown. I don't like putting God into a book or a set of rules and doctrine, as religion can often do. But, for me, there is a sense of peace that I receive through prayer that tells me ...the Divine does exist. It is a personal experience, I think for each and every one of us.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm no longer an atheist...I'd classify myself as an agnostic theist at this point, but there are no choices for that 'status' on here. lol Having said that, to me...God cannot be proven. At best, we can adhere to certain religions of a set of faith beliefs as concepts of God that resonate with us, but no one can 'prove' a deity's existence. I feel that my gravitation back to faith came largely because I wasn't happy as an atheist...there was an explainable void that no matter what I did, seemed to speak to the fact that I missed that connection with something Unknown. I don't like putting God into a book or a set of rules and doctrine, as religion can often do. But, for me, there is a sense of peace that I receive through prayer that tells me ...the Divine does exist. It is a personal experience, I think for each and every one of us.

Welcome back to Theism/Deism, Deidre! Glad to have you aboard again, even if you feel you've settled into an epistemological position similar to that of the late Antony Flew, at least for the time being.

Best Wishes to You!
Peace
 
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Ken-1122

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I dont know enough about the religion and Qu'ran to be able to say either way. But just because another religion makes claims doesn't discount the bibles claims.
that works both ways ya know

Islam was formed 600 years after Jesus and seems to adopt a lot of the Jewish beliefs. People say that it is basically the same original religion but was changed later by Mohammad who was a man.
People also say Christianity adopted a lot of jewish beliefs till it was changed later by Jesus who was a man.

They were making these claims which were well known. The Romans or the Jewish high priests who all had high status in society never denied this or even challenged that the tomb was not empty.
It was never challenged because it was such a non-issue they didn’t feel it worthy of addressing. Do you have evidence outside Christianity or sources associated with Christianity that confirms the Jews or the Romans confirmed Jesus rose from the grave? If the Jewish leaders confirmed this they wouldn’t continue to deny Jesus even to this day.

They just made an excuse for why it was empty.
Didn’t you provide evidence showing they said it was stolen?

Well like I said the Romans put guards on the Tomb and ensured no one tampered with it.

Do you have any sources outside your religion that confirms this?

There is no evidence, not even a possible alternative sight or a story about the theft of a body at that time.
There is no evidence outside your religion that Jesus rose from the dead either.

No thats the point there are many records from that time missing. There are no records of many crucifixtions. .

There were no records of this crucifixion either If the bible claims were true, you would suspect such an event would have been recorded
You gotta understand; what was then Rome is currently the heart of Christianity. If such evidence existed the Catholics would have dug it up and published it for all to see. I understand the possibility of some events getting lost over a few thousand years; but that possibility doesn’t mean it happened. The fact remains; outside religion, there is no record any of this stuff actually happened.

K
 
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madaz

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Yes thats right. As I said when the question was asked there is not any evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. We have to then look to the circumstantial and indirect evidence to see if there is any truth to the claims. So first we can establish an empty Tomb. Then we have to decide what happened to the body. It isn't just a case of a stolen body. There were guards on the tomb. The high priests had already notified Pilot of the claims that Jesus would rise from the dead. So a seal was placed on the Tomb door stating no one could attempt to interfere with the body or go near the tomb. Two guards were placed at the tomb door. But still the body was gone and the tomb was empty.

Other indirect evidence is how the disciples began to preach about the empty tomb and the resurrection of Jesus after they had seen Him. No one disputed this but rather made up the story that someone had stolen Christs body as a way to account for the empty tomb. The disciples also became bold and courageous from their quite and unsure selves. They stood up and proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus and were willing to die for this. This happen soon after the claims of His resurrection. So either they worked themselves up into a delusion which caused them to be irrational or they truly believed that Jesus had resurrected after seeing Him. But somehow if they knew it was all false someone in their right mind couldn't go to their death based on a lie.

So why was it necessary for Jesus' physical flesh/blood body to leave the tomb?
 
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madaz

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Yes thats right.

Ok, I'm just not accustomed to Christians providing evidence that refutes their own religion.

As I said when the question was asked there is not any evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. We have to then look to the circumstantial and indirect evidence to see if there is any truth to the claims.

What circumstantial and indirect evidence for these claims can be found outside of your religion?


So first we can establish an empty Tomb. Then we have to decide what happened to the body.

It isn't just a case of a stolen body.

I think you just dont want it to be a case of a stolen body. That would obviously render your whole religion false.

There were guards on the tomb.

That fact could have been easily added later steve.

The high priests had already notified Pilot of the claims that Jesus would rise from the dead. So a seal was placed on the Tomb door stating no one could attempt to interfere with the body or go near the tomb. Two guards were placed at the tomb door. But still the body was gone and the tomb was empty.
Other indirect evidence is how the disciples began to preach about the empty tomb and the resurrection of Jesus after they had seen Him..

Which particular Gospel do you accept regarding the resurrection?

And how is this indirect evidence? This is direct "evidence" from believers, found no where else except from within your own religion.

No one disputed this but rather made up the story that someone had stolen Christs body as a way to account for the empty tomb.

What if I claimed that my car shot vertical into the sky like a rocket and dissapeared, the evidence is my car is missing and there is an empty car park. There was a guard at the gate. None of my friends disputed my story but rather made up the story that someone had stolen my car as a way to account for the empty carpark.

Would you accept my bizarre story and dismiss that the possibility of my car simply being stolen as a made up story?


The disciples also became bold and courageous from their quite and unsure selves. They stood up and proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus and were willing to die for this. This happen soon after the claims of His resurrection. So either they worked themselves up into a delusion which caused them to be irrational or they truly believed that Jesus had resurrected after seeing Him. But somehow if they knew it was all false someone in their right mind couldn't go to their death based on a lie.

All the evidence you have provided thus far has come from within your own religion, from believers who have a great desire to believe in these things, despite the lack of evidence or contradictory evidence. They have a worldview which depends on these things being true.
People can write stories about people which can become legendary over time, especially when it involves someone who was considered a great person.

We humans have a tendency to do that.
 
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agua

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So when someone tells you that they have honestly searched for God and have reached theological commitments that differ to your own, you will call them a liar and insist that they haven't honestly searched because, if they had, they would agree with you?

And you see nothing wrong with that?

You're misunderstanding the claim. Yahweh promises that anyone who truly searches for Him will find Him, not me. I see nothing wrtong with this and it's a reasonable burden. Have you ever truly searched for Yahweh ?

We aren't talking about what God promises, since what "God promises" varies between religions. We are talking about what religious believers say will happen when an individual honestly searches for God. Apparently the definition of "honestly searching" is equivalent to "agrees with me on theological matters."
There is only God Who has made this promise and therefore you can't use it as a general invitation from any god. This is why you must seek Yahweh, the One True God, and not a god of your choosing. This promise has nothing to do with your preferences.
 
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agua

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Truly seeks = strong enough psychological need.

If one has a strong enough psychological need to believe in something, the mind will work overtime to convince that person, what they believe is true.

Incorrect. Truly seeks = seach with all of your heart, soul, and mind, according to Yahweh.

A person must lack investigative/interrogation ability if they can believe in something simply because they need it. This condition also applies to the person who has a strong enough phsychological need to reject something. ( usually because of personal preference, or fear ). Both instances show lack of a sound mind.
 
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agua

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I'm always surprised when believers lead with "facts" from their religion which are obviously wrong. Weird they wouldn't focus on the stuff that's correct.

Can you show me how the claim that Yahweh promised that anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him, is wrong ?
 
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Freodin

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Incorrect. Truly seeks = seach with all of your heart, soul, and mind, according to Yahweh.

A person must lack investigative/interrogation ability if they can believe in something simply because they need it. This condition also applies to the person who has a strong enough phsychological need to reject something. ( usually because of personal preference, or fear ). Both instances show lack of a sound mind.

If you "seek" with all of your heart, soul and mind for "something"... you think you have already found it.

You can only truly seek when you don't have already settled on a specific answer.
 
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agua

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Why do you ask for "physical" evidence? Why the qualifier? What other kinds might you ask for?

I'm wondering why you're avoiding answering my question, considering the problem of the Dragon in your garage is meant to show how Christians ( or theists ) are devious in addressing the existance of God.

As a skeptic, I'm only interested in physical evidence. Has your Dragon left any physical evidence of his presence ? ( he asks for the third time :D )
 
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agua

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If you "seek" with all of your heart, soul and mind for "something"... you think you have already found it.

You can only truly seek when you don't have already settled on a specific answer.

You've formed the wrong conclusion. To truly seek something you must believe it exists. There's no point in seaching for your car keys, if you don't own a car.

Seeking Yahweh is the search for the One True God; and to conduct this search you must accept/believe He exists, as you hinted. ie knowing God exists, isn't finding Him.
 
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Freodin

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You're on the right track, but have formed the wrong conclusion. To truly seek something you must believe it exists. There's no point in seaching for your car keys, if you don't own a car.

Seeking Yahweh is the search for the One True God; and to conduct this search you must accept/believe He exists, as you hinted.

You may even have come to the (logically) correct conclusions... but as you started from a false premise, your conclusion isn't worth anything.

To truly seek something, you must not believe that "it exists"... you must consider that it potentially provides an answer to a question you have.

In order for that to be considered "truly seeking", you cannot limit yourself to a certain answer. You would exclude all potential answers that may fit.

And here is the problem with your limited Christian approach: you start from an unbased, untestable and (potentially) false premise: that there is "One True God". For that shaky start, you set out for a limited answer: this "One True God" is Yahweh.

So you don't even bother to seek for other answers, and you disregard anyone not following your way as "not sincerely seeking".

You are certain you have found your answer, not because it is true, but because you have discarded any other possible answer.


There's no point in seaching for your car keys, if you don't own a car.
You touched an interesting point here, very interesting indeed for the topic of this thread: do I have a car? How do I know? What would be evidence for me having a car?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I'm wondering why you're avoiding answering my question, considering the problem of the Dragon in your garage is meant to show how Christians ( or theists ) are devious in addressing the existance of God.

As a skeptic, I'm only interested in physical evidence. Has your Dragon left any physical evidence of his presence ? ( he asks for the third time :D )

No, it hasn't left any physical evidence of its presence, but it's there. If you seek him with your heart, you will find him.
 
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Freodin

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No, it hasn't left any physical evidence of its presence, but it's there. If you seek him with your heart, you will find him.
Heretic! Blasphemer!

Of course it has left tons of physical evidence! The scar on your belly! The oily smear in the corner. The heap of excrement lying on the sidewalk. And many many other things.

All this is touchable, verifiable evidence of the invisible dragon! How can you deny it?
 
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Freodin

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We can point to the individuals who have truly sought him and come away without a belief in him.
Such individuals do not exist, because failing to find him means you didn't "truly" search... and so on.

That is the problem with untestable answers: they are neither verifiable nor falsifiable.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You're misunderstanding the claim. Yahweh promises that anyone who truly searches for Him will find Him, not me. I see nothing wrtong with this and it's a reasonable burden.

You say that Yahweh promises that. I'm not convinced that you speak for Yahweh or any other deity.

Have you ever truly searched for Yahweh ?

If I say yes, you will simply conclude that I have been insincere in my search because I haven't come to the same theological commitments as you.

There is only God Who has made this promise and therefore you can't use it as a general invitation from any god. This is why you must seek Yahweh, the One True God, and not a god of your choosing. This promise has nothing to do with your preferences.

Why can't I? Why can't I claim that if you are honest in your search you will inevitably come to understand that the FSM is real? It's you who claims that Yahweh exists and makes these promises. So why can't other religious believers claim that about their gods? There's nothing special about your particular claim. It can be made by anyone for any deity, or even no deity at all.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Heretic! Blasphemer!

Of course it has left tons of physical evidence! The scar on your belly! The oily smear in the corner. The heap of excrement lying on the sidewalk. And many many other things.

All this is touchable, verifiable evidence of the invisible dragon! How can you deny it?

Alas, I am mistaken. All of creation testifies to the dragon in my garage. The fool sayeth in his heart that there is no dragon.
 
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agua

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You may even have come to the (logically) correct conclusions... but as you started from a false premise, your conclusion isn't worth anything.

To truly seek something, you must not believe that "it exists"... you must consider that it potentially provides an answer to a question you have.

In order for that to be considered "truly seeking", you cannot limit yourself to a certain answer. You would exclude all potential answers that may fit.

And here is the problem with your limited Christian approach: you start from an unbased, untestable and (potentially) false premise: that there is "One True God". For that shaky start, you set out for a limited answer: this "One True God" is Yahweh.

So you don't even bother to seek for other answers, and you disregard anyone not following your way as "not sincerely seeking".

You are certain you have found your answer, not because it is true, but because you have discarded any other possible answer.

Here lies the problem of unbelief. I don't understand how it can be suggested that to seek for something it requires you to not believe it exists. For instance a scientist forms a premise on what he expects to find, not what he doesn't.

When we consider searching for the One True God this doesn't imply finding Yahweh. For instance many people believe God exists, and many even identify Him as Yahweh, but they still haven't found Him. Finding Him imlies knowing Him, not simply acknolwedging He exists. The fisrt step, and requirement, is acknowledgment which must be followed by truly seeking. Yahweh promise if you follow this method you will find Him ie. You will come to know Him, as Yahweh, the One True God.

You touched an interesting point here, very interesting indeed for the topic of this thread: do I have a car? How do I know? What would be evidence for me having a car?
The evidence that you have a car may be that it's parked in your garage ( hopefully Davian's dragon isn't guarding it :D ) . From there you would be confident you have keys to this car, and search for them.
 
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