What man? This one (2 Thes. 2:3-4)?
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
Who in history fits this complete description? And where is your evidence? It has been asked before in this thread and only the crickets answered...
Ha Ha. Thanks for proving my point. The Protestant church founders all said the Bishop of Rome was the man of sin or the antichrist. Therefore, the apostasy did come first. Yet now they want to say it didn't happen.
"dr"stevej keeps alleging that I am a complete idiot and know nothing because I don't call it a "reformation" when he is the one ignoring the scripture which says the apostasy would come before this man or is flat denying the history he allegedly holds a degree in.
Your knowledge of Protestant history is abysmal. Thanks for additional documentation. Oh, there was no documentation of these claims.
Explain how these things transpired in Wittenburg? In Geneva? In Basel? In England? In Holland?
Wanna start a formal debate thread on the Reformation? Or do you prefer to splash your revisionistic comments here hoping readers will buy it.
And as for your allegation, I have answered the charge to provide evidence and posted the quotes of the Protestant founders who said this, so I don't know how you can say with a straight face that only "crickets" answered, but here they are again.
Lutheran -
Martin Luther (1483-1546) [founder of the Lutheran Church]
“nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist….For who is the
man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.” Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197
There sits the man, of whom the apostle wrote [2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4], that will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God. That
man of sin to be revealed, the son of perdition . . . He suppresses the law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God. (LeRoy Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 2, p. 281)
We here are of the conviction that the Papacy is the seat of the true and real antichrist. (Ibid., p. 256)
Philipp Melanchthon(1497-1560) [Associate of Martin Luther]
“Since it is certain that the pontiffs and the monks have forbidden marriage, it is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very Antichrist. Likewise in 2 Thess. II, Paul clearly says that the
man of sin will rule in the church exalting himself above the worship of God, etc." Translated from Melanchthon, Disputationes, No. 56, "De Matrimonio", in Opera (Corpus Reformatorum), vol. 12 col. 535:
It is most manifest, and true without any doubt, that the Roman pontiff, with his whole order and kingdom, is very antichrist. . . . Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul clearly says the man of sin will rule in the church by exalting himself above the worship of God. (LeRoy Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 2, pp. 296–9)
Methodist -
John Wesley(1703-1791) [founder of the Methodist Church]
“He is in an emphatical sense, the
Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers… He it is…that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped… claiming the highest power, and highest honor… claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Albert Close, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, London: Thynne and Co., 1917, p. 110.
Presbyterian -
Westminster Confession, 25:6 - "vi. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that
man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."
John Calvin(1509-1564) [founder of the Presbyterian Church]: I deny him to be the vicar of Christ. . . .
He is antichrist—I deny him to be head of the church. (John Calvin Tracts, vol. 1, pp. 219, 220)
"Institutes by John Calvin" - "We call the Roman Pontiff antichrist."
Reformed Church
John Knox (1505-1572) [Scottish Reformer] declared .. "As for your
Roman Church, as it is now corrupted… I no more doubt but that it
is the synagogue of Satan, and the head therof, called the Pope, to be the
man of sin of whom the apostle speaketh.". "That tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, the very antichrist and son of perdition of whom Paul speaks." (The Zurich Letter, p.199)
Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531) [great Swiss reformer quoted on Dec. 28, 1524]
“I know that in it works the might and power of the Devil, that is, of the Antichrist… the Papacy has to be abolished… But by no other means can it be more thoroughly routed than by the word of God (2 Thessalonians 2), because as soon as the world receives this in the right way, it will turn away from the Pope without compulsion.” Principle Works of Zwingli, Vol. 7, p. 135.
Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.)
Taken from Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7
John Wycliffe (1324-1384) [Completed the 1st English translation of the Bible]
“Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist? Hence in the seventh chapter of Daniel Antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the 4th kingdom. For it grew from [among] our powerful ones, more horrible, more cruel, and more greedy, because by reckoning the pagans and our Christians by name, a lesser [greater?] struggle for the temporals is not recorded in any preceding time. Therefore the ten horns are the whole of our temporal rulers, and the horn has arisen from the ten horns, having eyes and a mouth speaking great things against the Lofty One, and wearing out the saints of the Most High, and thinking that he is able to change times and laws.” (Daniel 7:8, 25 quoted) …"For so our clergy foresee the lord pope, as it is said of the eighth blaspheming little head." Translated from Wyclif's, De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, vol. 3 pp. 262, 263 Learn more about John Wyclif
William Tyndale (1484-1536) [1st translator of the Bible from the Greek]
“The pope's forbidding matrimony, and to eat of meats created of God for man's use, which is devilish doctrine by Paul's prophecy,… are tokens good enough that he is the right antichrist, and his doctrine sprung of the devil.” 1 Timothy 4:1-3 Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue, in Works, vol. 3, p. 171 Visit
http://www.williamtyndale.com for more information on William Tyndale.
Thanks for giving me the chance to show that I'm the one who actually knows what he is talking about.
Cheers