What scriptures show there would be an apostasy?

[RevelationTestament]

Matt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

This is echoed by Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution[restoration] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Christ said it and The Acts said it. There would be an apostasy after which all things would be restored before He could come again.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is one to chew on - II Thessalonians 2:1-6

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

We can say with certainty that the apostasy has not yet occured because the man of lawlessness has not been revealed.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings bbbbbbb,

Here is one to chew on - II Thessalonians 2:1-6

We can say with certainty that the apostasy has not yet occured because the man of lawlessness has not been revealed.

I believe that the Apostasy has occurred and is continuing. It is a religious system centred in the Papacy, and the development of this was hindered while the Pagan Romans had supremacy. Once these were removed the Apostasy developed.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[RevelationTestament]

Here is one to chew on - II Thessalonians 2:1-6

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

We can say with certainty that the apostasy has not yet occured because the man of lawlessness has not been revealed.

That is a logical fallacy. For the man of sin to be revealed who causes the apostasy, the apostasy must have already occurred. Who exalts himself?
The bishop of Rome is called "Holy Father."
who else is called that besides Heavenly Father in John 17:11?
Jesus says to call no man "Father."

Perhaps you have forgotten your Protestant roots?
Every major branch of Protestantism started with men who declared the bishop of Rome is the antichrist or is the man of sin.
For an apostasy to occur the tenets of Christianity must be replaced.
1. Baptism - from immersion to sprinkling with "holy [salted] water."
2. persecution and execution of Christians as heretics
3. adoption of pagan names and holiday dates
4. preventing priests and bishops from marrying in contravention of 1 Timothy and in fulfillment of prophecy.
5. sale of indulgences for forgiveness of sins
6. etc

 

[RevelationTestament]

By definition apostasy must occur within the church. Those outside the church cannot apostatize.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all...
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Who is the great city? She goes apostate, and the light that once shone there will not shine there anymore. So she once had and practiced truths of the gospel, but lost so much that the bridegroom departs from her as all nations are deceived by her.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Greetings bbbbbbb,
I believe that the Apostasy has occurred and is continuing. It is a religious system centred in the Papacy, and the development of this was hindered while the Pagan Romans had supremacy. Once these were removed the Apostasy developed.

Kind regards
Trevor

Dear Trevor,

Do you believe that Paul stated clearly in II Thessalonians 2 that the apostasy will not take place until the "Man of sin" is revealed? If you do, precisely who was that Man of sin?

All the best,

bbbbbbb

 

[bbbbbbb]

That is a logical fallacy. For the man of sin to be revealed who causes the apostasy, the apostasy must have already occurred. Who exalts himself?
The bishop of Rome is called "Holy Father."
who else is called that besides Heavenly Father in John 17:11?
Jesus says to call no man "Father."

Perhaps you have forgotten your Protestant roots?
Every major branch of Protestantism started with men who declared the bishop of Rome is the antichrist or is the man of sin.
For an apostasy to occur the tenets of Christianity must be replaced.
1. Baptism - from immersion to sprinkling with "holy [salted] water."
2. persecution and execution of Christians as heretics
3. adoption of pagan names and holiday dates
4. preventing priests and bishops from marrying in contravention of 1 Timothy and in fulfillment of prophecy.
5. sale of indulgences for forgiveness of sins
6. etc

What you seem to think is that the Man of sin is plural - men of sin - and that it is an office, not a person. If that were the case then Paul would have stated as such. However, he does not.

Thus, you have not defined who the Man of sin was. If you think he was a Pope in Rome, please provide the evidence showing how he met the conditions set forth by Paul.

BTW, although I am not a fan of the papacy or of the Catholic church, this thread is not about them, but about the apostasy, so I will not derail it for you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

By definition apostasy must occur within the church. Those outside the church cannot apostatize.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all...
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Who is the great city? She goes apostate, and the light that once shone there will not shine there anymore. So she once had and practiced truths of the gospel, but lost so much that the bridegroom departs from her as all nations are deceived by her.

All well and good. So who was the Man of sin who was revealed before the apostasy? Note, I do not ask about evil men who otherwise do not conform to the biblical conditions of the Man of sin. Indeed, I John states clearly that there have been, and are, many anti-Christs, but there will be only one Anti-Christ.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Here is one to chew on - II Thessalonians 2:1-6

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

We can say with certainty that the apostasy has not yet occured because the man of lawlessness has not been revealed.

On the contrary, the man of sin (Satan) was revealed (exposed) by the Restoration of the Gospel. From the LDS perspective, of course.

 

[joneysd]

the lds have to invent an apostasy to fit their agenda... it is not supported by the bible...

 

[joneysd]

On the contrary, the man of sin (Satan) was revealed (exposed) by the Restoration of the Gospel. From the LDS perspective, of course.

do you mean the satan brother of Jesus or was that lucifer i forget...

 

[TasteForTruth]

the lds have to invent an apostasy to fit their agenda... it is not supported by the bible...

The post-NT apostasy is the proverbial 10,000 lb. elephant in Christianity's living room, but that doesn't stop Christians from dismissing it. Just sayin'.

 

[TasteForTruth]

do you mean the satan brother of Jesus or was that lucifer i forget...

 

[TasteForTruth]

do you mean the satan brother of Jesus or was that lucifer i forget...

ooops... duplicate post. Blame that CF lag.

 

[joneysd]

The post-NT apostasy is the proverbial 10,000 lb. elephant in Christianity's living room, but that doesn't stop Christians from dismissing it. Just sayin'.

i think its a ten billion pound white elephant in the mormon s living room personally....

as without it the bom and its doctrines have no grounds and we all no when the bom stands alone it sinks like a brick in the pool...

 

[TasteForTruth]

i think its a ten billion pound white elephant in the mormon s living room personally....

as without it the bom and its doctrines have no grounds and we all no when the bom stands alone it sinks like a brick in the pool...

Thanks for sharing.

 

[joneysd]

Thanks for sharing.

no problem, any time...

 

[BigDaddy4]

On the contrary, the man of sin (Satan) was revealed (exposed) by the Restoration of the Gospel. From the LDS perspective, of course.

Say what? Satan was not known (or exposed) until your alleged restoration in 1830?

No one from the time that Scripture was written until 1830 knew who/what Satan was? Is that what you are suggesting here?

 

[joneysd]

Say what? Satan was not known (or exposed) until your alleged restoration in 1830?

No one from the time that Scripture was written until 1830 knew who/what Satan was? Is that what you are suggesting here?

perhaps they mean the time rather than the date...

 

[TasteForTruth]

Say what? Satan was not known (or exposed) until your alleged restoration in 1830?

No one from the time that Scripture was written until 1830 knew who/what Satan was? Is that what you are suggesting here?

No, I'm not suggesting that. Prior to the Restoration (which is an ongoing thing, not an event in 1830), the Christian world was mostly unaware that the Gospel of Christ had been effectively supplanted by something that was, in part, only a semblance of the Gospel. In other words, the spiritual wool had been largely pulled over the eyes of Christianity, relative to the true Gospel.

Of course, many Christians inwardly began to be aware that something was amiss, but were not able to restore the truth, in spite of great efforts to do so. Restoring the truth was only possible through the same means by which the Gospel had first been given to man—by revelation. Study and analysis of the scriptures...debate and discussion...these things were ineffective to do what could only be done through God's power.

When God restored the Gospel and Priesthood to the earth, Satan's machinations against the Gospel—which had been perpetuated by Christians for centuries, who understood that that which they believed was the "whole truth"—were exposed. The man of sin, who had usurped among men that authority which belongs to God alone and who had thereby placed himself in the place of God, was revealed.

That is the significance of what I wrote.