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Proof of Creation?

JacksBratt

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If they are from biologists, I would be happy to see them. If they are from scientists whose studies do not depend on a knowledge of biology, then I'm not interested.

So, Kylie, why do you get to choose which discipline of the sciences you regard as the only one acceptable. Do you hold your discipline as the golden discipline?

There are many factions of science. All are credible. You cannot cherry pick the information you allow to be relevant.


If evolution contradicts the views of a physicist, chemist, astronomer, nuclear science, botanist, geneticist, and paleontology, in your view is fine. If the scientist is not a biologist you won't listen?

This is kind of a limited point of view.

Remember, some scientists would rather not have their name made public due to justified fear of job discrimination and persecution in today's atmosphere of limited academic freedom in Evolutionist-controlled institutions.
 
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bhsmte

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So, Kylie, why do you get to choose which discipline of the sciences you regard as the only one acceptable. Do you hold your discipline as the golden discipline?

There are many factions of science. All are credible. You cannot cherry pick the information you allow to be relevant.


If evolution contradicts the views of a physicist, chemist, astronomer, nuclear science, botanist, geneticist, and paleontology, in your view is fine. If the scientist is not a biologist you won't listen?

This is kind of a limited point of view.

Remember, some scientists would rather not have their name made public due to justified fear of job discrimination and persecution in today's atmosphere of limited academic freedom in Evolutionist-controlled institutions.

If you had a serious heart ailment, would you seek and listen to the advice of a cardiologist, or a podiatrist?
 
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lasthero

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Remember, some scientists would rather not have their name made public due to justified fear of job discrimination and persecution in today's atmosphere of limited academic freedom in Evolutionist-controlled institutions.

I know I sound like a broken record with this, but do you have any evidence for that claim? If they haven't made their names public, how do you know about them, exactly?
 
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lasthero

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Split Rock

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So, Kylie, why do you get to choose which discipline of the sciences you regard as the only one acceptable. Do you hold your discipline as the golden discipline?
I think she is saying if biology is not their field, then she doesn't consider them capable of discussing biological evolution.

There are many factions of science. All are credible. You cannot cherry pick the information you allow to be relevant.
That's funny... its creationist here that I see cherry-picking from science. My favorite example is claiming an ice age following Noah's flood. Where does that come from? The bible never mentions any ice age or glaciers or sheets of ice after the flood. They get the idea from science and then twist it and shove it into the scriptural account. Never mind the fact that scientists did not conclude there was a single short ice age following a global flood a few thousand years ago.

If evolution contradicts the views of a physicist, chemist, astronomer, nuclear science, botanist, geneticist, and paleontology, in your view is fine. If the scientist is not a biologist you won't listen?

This is kind of a limited point of view.
1. A botanist would be considered a biologist.
2. If evolution contradicted any of these other disciplines, then yes, that would be important. It doesn't and that wasn't what Kylie was addressing anyway. She was addressing non-biologist commenting on biology, not their own fields of expertise.

Remember, some scientists would rather not have their name made public due to justified fear of job discrimination and persecution in today's atmosphere of limited academic freedom in Evolutionist-controlled institutions.
Funny, I have been a biologist since before 1990 and I have never encountered any scientist who feared for their career if they didn't keep quiet about evolution doubts.
 
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JacksBratt

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If you had a serious heart ailment, would you seek and listen to the advice of a cardiologist, or a podiatrist?

This response would be valid, only, if evolution was just a heart problem..

In my opinion, this is a whole body problem and needs all the disciplines.

Nice try however.
 
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Split Rock

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This response would be valid, only, if evolution was just a heart problem..

In my opinion, this is a whole body problem and needs all the disciplines.

Nice try however.

Funny then how biological evolution fits in with what anthropologists, paleontologists and geologists have concluded.
 
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JacksBratt

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I know I sound like a broken record with this, but do you have any evidence for that claim? If they haven't made their names public, how do you know about them, exactly?


Yes, I have a list of scientists who don't want to go public.....:doh:
 
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JacksBratt

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Does this mean you can't answer my question?

Your question is rhetorical and your point is mute.

A better question would be if you had a problem with your physical health, would you go to an accountant, lawyer, crane operator, pro football player....

Or a doctor.
 
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bhsmte

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Your question is rhetorical and your point is mute.

A better question would be if you had a problem with your physical health, would you go to an accountant, lawyer, crane operator, pro football player....

Or a doctor.

I guess this means, if you had a serious heart ailment and your health was in serious peril, you can't tell me you would seek the advice and care from a cardiologist?
 
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JacksBratt

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Funny then how biological evolution fits in with what anthropologists, paleontologists and geologists have concluded.

No surprise:

how biological evolution fits in with what evolution believing and supporting, anthropologists, paleontologists and geologists have concluded.
 
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JacksBratt

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I know I sound like a broken record with this, but do you have any evidence for that claim? If they haven't made their names public, how do you know about them, exactly?


In March of 1983, Dr. Patterson authored an article for (appropriately enough) the American Atheist, in which he excoriated all of his fellow engineers who dared to be politically incorrect and believe in the concept of “design in nature resulting from an intelligent Creator.” Dr. Patterson labeled any engineer who believed in creation as “incompetent,” and charged the professional societies who accepted their credentials as being “irresponsible.”
But, as brutal as that blistering bluster was, it represented little more than Patterson’s “warning shot across the bow.” Just a few months later, in the fall of 1983, Dr. Patterson went farther—much, much farther—in his personal vendetta against creationists. At the time, he was serving as one of the members of the [SIZE=-1]ISU[/SIZE] committee on instruction in the sciences and humanities. He presented a proposal to the committee that stunned not only the committee members, but also the university’s administration, faculty, and student body as well.
Dr. Patterson suggested—in all seriousness!—that any student who was enrolled in a science-related course, and who, at the conclusion of the course, continued to maintain a personal belief in creation, should receive a failing grade. He also suggested that a professor—upon learning that a student had successfully completed his or her course, yet still retained a belief in creation—should be allowed to retroactively change the grade from a passing mark to a failing one. And, said Patterson, if the university discovered that it inadvertently had conferred a degree upon a student who, upon having graduated, nevertheless believed in creation, the degree should be rescinded!
Patterson’s proposal was reprinted in its entirety in the November/December 1984 issue of Liberty magazine (see Zuidema, 1984, pp. 16-18), and elsewhere. Here, in Patterson’s own words, is a portion of that proposal.
I suggest that every professor should reserve the right to fail any student in his class no matter what the grade record indicates, whenever basic misunderstandings of a certain magnitude are discovered. Moreover, I would propose retracting grades and possibly even degrees if such gross misunderstandings are publicly espoused after passing the course, or after being graduated.... In geology and biology, denying the facts of evolution or an earth age in the order of billions of years, would, in my view, be grounds for drastic action. ...Resorting to arguments based on religious commitments, personal inspirations, revelations, and such would not be acceptable defenses; however, logically coherent arguments based on valid evidence could be. Decisions as to what is logically coherent or what is valid evidence would have to be made by appropriate faculty experts or panels who might also be called to task if their rationale(s) reflect academic irresponsibility or scholarly incompetence (Zuidema, p. 18, emp. added).​
 
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Split Rock

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No surprise:

how biological evolution fits in with what evolution believing and supporting, anthropologists, paleontologists and geologists have concluded.

Actually, the basics of geology (in particular stratigraphy) and the concept of a very old earth were developed prior to the acceptance of biological evolution. So was the rejection of flood geology. These conclusions had nothing to do with biological evolution. See: History of the Collapse of Flood Geology and a Young Earth
 
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Split Rock

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In March of 1983, Dr. Patterson authored an article for (appropriately enough) the American Atheist, in which he excoriated all of his fellow engineers who dared to be politically incorrect and believe in the concept of “design in nature resulting from an intelligent Creator.” Dr. Patterson labeled any engineer who believed in creation as “incompetent,” and charged the professional societies who accepted their credentials as being “irresponsible.”
But, as brutal as that blistering bluster was, it represented little more than Patterson’s “warning shot across the bow.” Just a few months later, in the fall of 1983, Dr. Patterson went farther—much, much farther—in his personal vendetta against creationists. At the time, he was serving as one of the members of the [SIZE=-1]ISU[/SIZE] committee on instruction in the sciences and humanities. He presented a proposal to the committee that stunned not only the committee members, but also the university’s administration, faculty, and student body as well.
Dr. Patterson suggested—in all seriousness!—that any student who was enrolled in a science-related course, and who, at the conclusion of the course, continued to maintain a personal belief in creation, should receive a failing grade. He also suggested that a professor—upon learning that a student had successfully completed his or her course, yet still retained a belief in creation—should be allowed to retroactively change the grade from a passing mark to a failing one. And, said Patterson, if the university discovered that it inadvertently had conferred a degree upon a student who, upon having graduated, nevertheless believed in creation, the degree should be rescinded!
Patterson’s proposal was reprinted in its entirety in the November/December 1984 issue of Liberty magazine (see Zuidema, 1984, pp. 16-18), and elsewhere. Here, in Patterson’s own words, is a portion of that proposal.
I suggest that every professor should reserve the right to fail any student in his class no matter what the grade record indicates, whenever basic misunderstandings of a certain magnitude are discovered. Moreover, I would propose retracting grades and possibly even degrees if such gross misunderstandings are publicly espoused after passing the course, or after being graduated.... In geology and biology, denying the facts of evolution or an earth age in the order of billions of years, would, in my view, be grounds for drastic action. ...Resorting to arguments based on religious commitments, personal inspirations, revelations, and such would not be acceptable defenses; however, logically coherent arguments based on valid evidence could be. Decisions as to what is logically coherent or what is valid evidence would have to be made by appropriate faculty experts or panels who might also be called to task if their rationale(s) reflect academic irresponsibility or scholarly incompetence (Zuidema, p. 18, emp. added).​

And were these suggestions by a single person implemented?
 
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lasthero

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In March of 1983, Dr. Patterson authored an article for (appropriately enough) the American Atheist, in which he excoriated all of his fellow engineers who dared to be politically incorrect and believe in the concept of “design in nature resulting from an intelligent Creator.” Dr. Patterson labeled any engineer who believed in creation as “incompetent,” and charged the professional societies who accepted their credentials as being “irresponsible.”
But, as brutal as that blistering bluster was, it represented little more than Patterson’s “warning shot across the bow.” Just a few months later, in the fall of 1983, Dr. Patterson went farther—much, much farther—in his personal vendetta against creationists. At the time, he was serving as one of the members of the [SIZE=-1]ISU[/SIZE] committee on instruction in the sciences and humanities. He presented a proposal to the committee that stunned not only the committee members, but also the university’s administration, faculty, and student body as well.
Dr. Patterson suggested—in all seriousness!—that any student who was enrolled in a science-related course, and who, at the conclusion of the course, continued to maintain a personal belief in creation, should receive a failing grade. He also suggested that a professor—upon learning that a student had successfully completed his or her course, yet still retained a belief in creation—should be allowed to retroactively change the grade from a passing mark to a failing one. And, said Patterson, if the university discovered that it inadvertently had conferred a degree upon a student who, upon having graduated, nevertheless believed in creation, the degree should be rescinded!
Patterson’s proposal was reprinted in its entirety in the November/December 1984 issue of Liberty magazine (see Zuidema, 1984, pp. 16-18), and elsewhere. Here, in Patterson’s own words, is a portion of that proposal.
I suggest that every professor should reserve the right to fail any student in his class no matter what the grade record indicates, whenever basic misunderstandings of a certain magnitude are discovered. Moreover, I would propose retracting grades and possibly even degrees if such gross misunderstandings are publicly espoused after passing the course, or after being graduated.... In geology and biology, denying the facts of evolution or an earth age in the order of billions of years, would, in my view, be grounds for drastic action. ...Resorting to arguments based on religious commitments, personal inspirations, revelations, and such would not be acceptable defenses; however, logically coherent arguments based on valid evidence could be. Decisions as to what is logically coherent or what is valid evidence would have to be made by appropriate faculty experts or panels who might also be called to task if their rationale(s) reflect academic irresponsibility or scholarly incompetence (Zuidema, p. 18, emp. added).​

Your claim was that there are some scientists who would speak out about evolution, but don't because fear of their jobs. How does one incident with one man over twenty years ago (with suggestions that didn't even pass) remotely come close to supporting that statement?
 
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JacksBratt

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I know I sound like a broken record with this, but do you have any evidence for that claim? If they haven't made their names public, how do you know about them, exactly?


The writer interviewed over 100 persons who were active in what is known as the creation-intelligent design movement. Most felt that the standard evolutionary paradigm of origins was inadequate and should be ‘balanced’ with alternative positions. The creationists interviewed differed considerably relative to their views of origins, and about half would be identified with the seven day literal 24-hour day non-gap universal Noachian deluge creationist position. Almost all felt that they had faced serious religious discrimination in their academic careers at least once or more often. The discrimination ranged from derogatory comments to denial of tenure or an earned degree. The writer also reviewed the literature and interviewed about a dozen academic deans and department chairs in the field of science. All, without exception, felt that openly holding a ‘scientific creation’ worldview would seriously impede or terminate an academic career. Many openly stated that they would not hire or support the candidacy of an out-of-the-closet scientific creationist for a tenured position in academia.

‘Most scientists are only dimly aware of the various “anti-science” systems of belief now widespread [including] … politically dangerous movements such as creationism … . We protect ourselves by never letting these mutually exclusive beliefs surface at the same time. For example, the constellation of religious fundamentalism and creationism is often combined with a high regard for high tech. Many creationists’ tracts are tapped out on extremely expensive personal computers. Creationists are able to accept and reject the physics that makes these machines possible as the occasion demands. There is no God, and Mary is His mother.’21

‘… hardy believers in creation … have been heaped with scorn and ridicule. Evolutionists dominated the field so securely that creationists were fired, denied tenure and denied advanced degrees with impunity in public schools and universities.’22

‘America has a new bigotry. Traces of it have been around for a long time, glimpsed only fleetingly and in widely-scattered places. But in 1983, it assumed nationwide proportions. This is bigotry against evangelicals. Two things are particularly frightening about this bigotry. Few recognized it, and nobody … [has so far done] anything about it. It is difficult to say which is more disturbing. Any religious group that defies public opinion and practices nonconformity runs the risk of ridicule and rejection. This can quickly turn to persecution in time of crisis, particularly if such persecution is advantageous of those in power.’26



‘It appears from various reports reaching this office, that a trend is developing in the halls of Academe … that Liberalism’s great contribution to American education, namely “Academic Freedom” has become a victim of incest, having been raped by its own sires … . [A] former Louisiana State Senator … said instances [of] … pro-creationism professors and teachers … being dismissed have begun to proliferate in the past ten years … highly-qualified educators denied tenure or otherwise discriminated against simply because they hold views or engage in activities which oppose the tenets of … [evolutionism].’28




The writer, as part of an ongoing research project, has interviewed over 100 active self-labelled creationists who are, or were, employed in academia. He specifically asked if they had faced religious discrimination and, if so, to delineate their experience. Almost all believed that their creationist beliefs caused at least some career problems. These ranged from open derision to outright firings, and even attempts to rescind earned degrees. Some cases were tragic in their extent, blatancy and consequences.31
 
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