the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[joneysd]

Good questions.
We cannot keep the commandments perfectly without His Son. We will stumble, fall, and fail miserably. We will never be sinless. Even in our efforts to follow Him, we falter. We can overcome sin with Jesus' help, but overcoming sin does not make us sinless, because we have sinned. We cannot come unto the Father stained. Our stains must be cleansed. Only the blood of the Lamb can cleanse us. But what use is it to cleanse us from the stains if we still hold fast to the source of the stains? We first must let go of sin to be cleansed.

God prepared a way for us to escape temptation, so that we can bear it. (1 Corinthians 10:13) Jesus showed us that prepared way in His examples, and taught us how in word. Jesus had to come so we could take His yoke upon us. A yoke is a harness that couples two beasts of burden, plowing fields for example. The burdens of keeping the commandments is more than we can do alone.

Matthew 11: 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

It is learning to love, as Jesus loves, that empowers us to overcome evil. We are selfish and full of pride in our carnal state. When we love Jesus more than the things of the world, the burden becomes light. When we have something greater to love, then we loose interest in the world. By that standard, we are no longer carnal. Why do we love God? Because He first loved us. That is why God sent His Son, because He loves us! How do we know that we love God? "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

so who is over coming the sin??? we cannot do it ourselves as you said...

so it is not our works is it, it is Jesus?? by Grace...

if Jesus is so perfect as to perfect our love and making us sinless before God, why isn't he in the celestial kingdom with God...?

 

[MormonFriend]

so who is over coming the sin??? we cannot do it ourselves as you said...

so it is not our works is it, it is Jesus?? by Grace...

I have stated oh so many times that our works do not save us. Yes, absolutely it is His Grace that saves us! And it is He who requires the works of us. Obedience is required for salvation. (Heb. 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him ) Can you imagine being in that harness (yoke) with Jesus, dragging your feet and letting Him do all the work? We must give our insufficient all, and He makes up the major difference. If we hold back, it is our pride and rebellion that keeps us from giving our all. That is the key! The pride is the dross that must be refined from the gold, if we are to ever be one with Jesus and His Father.
John 17: 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


This concept of taking upon ourselves the yoke of Christ is most significant! I learned to ride a tricycle when I was little. A little bigger, I learned to ride a bicycle, a few falls were in the learning. Then I decided to conquer the unicycle. I fell so many times in learning I can't count them. I had to replace the seat twice because it was dropped as I fell. It was frustrating, but I knew it could be done. I endured until I mastered it.

There is a fine art in taking upon ourselves, and balancing with the yoke of Christ, and many have accused Him of abandonment due to the many falls we take. Why does he let us fall? It gets to the point where we begin to suffer spiritually, even to a broken heart and an contrite spirit.

Psalms 34:18
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Only at that point can the dross be removed from the gold that is in us.

Those who quit trying to keep the commandments, because they think Jesus has abandoned us and is not helping us to succeed, will never experience that refinement of purity and sanctification. They search for an alternative way to God, and there are many available that teach works are not necessary, but there is none other that will truly sanctify us.. That is the very means by which the wheat is separated from the tares. Namely, those who endure to the end and suffer the trials and tribulations necessary to remove our pride, with faith that Jesus is always there (and He is always there.) A broken heart and a contrite spirit is the narrow path, and few there be that find it.

 

[joneysd]

I have stated oh so many times that our works do not save us. Yes, absolutely it is His Grace that saves us! And it is He who requires the works of us. Obedience is required for salvation. (Heb. 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him ) Can you imagine being in that harness (yoke) with Jesus, dragging your feet and letting Him do all the work? We must give our insufficient all, and He makes up the major difference. If we hold back, it is our pride and rebellion that keeps us from giving our all. That is the key! The pride is the dross that must be refined from the gold, if we are to ever be one with Jesus and His Father.
John 17: 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


This concept of taking upon ourselves the yoke of Christ is most significant! I learned to ride a tricycle when I was little. A little bigger, I learned to ride a bicycle, a few falls were in the learning. Then I decided to conquer the unicycle. I fell so many times in learning I can't count them. I had to replace the seat twice because it was dropped as I fell. It was frustrating, but I knew it could be done. I endured until I mastered it.

There is a fine art in taking upon ourselves, and balancing with the yoke of Christ, and many have accused Him of abandonment due to the many falls we take. Why does he let us fall? It gets to the point where we begin to suffer spiritually, even to a broken heart and an contrite spirit.

Psalms 34:18
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Only at that point can the dross be removed from the gold that is in us.

Those who quit trying to keep the commandments, because they think Jesus has abandoned us and is not helping us to succeed, will never experience that refinement of purity and sanctification. They search for an alternative way to God, and there are many available that teach works are not necessary, but there is none other that will truly sanctify us.. That is the very means by which the wheat is separated from the tares. Namely, those who endure to the end and suffer the trials and tribulations necessary to remove our pride, with faith that Jesus is always there (and He is always there.) A broken heart and a contrite spirit is the narrow path, and few there be that find it.

you see this is where the problem is, yes you do state that it s about Grace but then you go on to say plus other things, the lds seem to do that, so in reality you agree with what an earlier apostle said that the idea of being saved by Grace alone is from the devil, Grace to the lds only gets you so far it atones for the sins of adam but your works atone for the sins of the individual..

so as you say your terminology say one thing while in reality there is always a but such as temple marriage, plural marriage, follow all the church rules and regs, wear the temple garments and many more so saved by Grace seems a little lost amongst all the things you yourself must do...

 

[olderguy]

Will this controversy never end, it needs to and soon. Yes, God saves us out of His love for us, not anything we do. But once He does, we all, each and every one of us, has to prove to God we are worthy of being trusted with eternal life. That's where behavior comes into it.
There is confusion because James and Paul used the same word, works, but they meant different things by works. James meant good deeds, such as being kind, generous, helpful to others, etc. Paul meant works as in the old Jewish laws, especially food restrictions and circumcision. Paul was saying none of this was necessary because salvation is a gift of God. James was saying that if you really received this gift, and you're not pretending you did, then it will show by what you do.

 

[joneysd]

Will this controversy never end, it needs to and soon. Yes, God saves us out of His love for us, not anything we do. But once He does, we all, each and every one of us, has to prove to God we are worthy of being trusted with eternal life. That's where behavior comes into it.
There is confusion because James and Paul used the same word, works, but they meant different things by works. James meant good deeds, such as being kind, generous, helpful to others, etc. Paul meant works as in the old Jewish laws, especially food restrictions and circumcision. Paul was saying none of this was necessary because salvation is a gift of God. James was saying that if you really received this gift, and you're not pretending you did, then it will show by what you do.

no james says if you have faith use that faith, what is the point of having the faith to raise the dead if you never use it...

if all our sins are forgiven when we accept jesus what sins are left to account for...

if Grace has saved us by god's free will and love, what do we have to prove to God, it makes no sense...

it is merely self righteousness if we think we have anything to prove...

 

[bbbbbbb]

People know smoking cigarettes harms their health, yet they smoke anyway.

Is there a particular reason you are evading my question?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Will this controversy never end, it needs to and soon. Yes, God saves us out of His love for us, not anything we do. But once He does, we all, each and every one of us, has to prove to God we are worthy of being trusted with eternal life. That's where behavior comes into it.
There is confusion because James and Paul used the same word, works, but they meant different things by works. James meant good deeds, such as being kind, generous, helpful to others, etc. Paul meant works as in the old Jewish laws, especially food restrictions and circumcision. Paul was saying none of this was necessary because salvation is a gift of God. James was saying that if you really received this gift, and you're not pretending you did, then it will show by what you do.

You seem to have a very limited God who does not or cannot know whether He has given salvation to anyone unless that individual proves it to him.

The God who is revealed through His Word knows all things and does not require anything from us in order to prove anything to Him. Psalm 139.

 

[Moodshadow]

You seem to have a very limited God who does not or cannot know whether He has given salvation to anyone unless that individual proves it to him.

The God who is revealed through His Word knows all things and does not require anything from us in order to prove anything to Him. Psalm 139.

It is very true that we are saved by grace, not works, and that we are saved UNTO good works. However, the Book of Revelation does state that we will be judged from the Book of Life according to our good deeds. See Revelation 20. Am I misunderstanding it, and if so, how?

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is very true that we are saved by grace, not works, and that we are saved UNTO good works. However, the Book of Revelation does state that we will be judged from the Book of Life according to our good deeds. See Revelation 20. Am I misunderstanding it, and if so, how?

No, I do not think you are misunderstanding it. Christians will receive rewards for their good works. These are works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10). Christians do not need to do good works to prove their spirituality to God. God already knows whether a person is really a Christian or not.

 

[MormonFriend]

No, I do not think you are misunderstanding it. Christians will receive rewards for their good works. These are works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10). Christians do not need to do good works to prove their spirituality to God. God already knows whether a person is really a Christian or not.

So then, how do these scriptural pieces of the puzzle fit into the big picture that you see?

Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Can we be saved if we are not forgiven? Is forgiving others a necessary effort (work) on our part?

Hebrews 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Who authors our salvation if we do not obey Him? Is not obedience an effort (work)?

Psalms 34:18
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

We cannot be saved unless our hearts become contrite. How does that happen?

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Peter was not yet converted. (Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.) What did Peter have to do to become converted so he may enter the kingdom? What do we have to do to become as little children, so we can enter the kingdom?

I could make a list a mile long.

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
What in the world does my obedience have to do with whether or not the principle I illustrated is true or not?

Originally Posted by bbbbbbb
If you believe the principle is true then you would follow it. ...

People know smoking cigarettes harms their health, yet they smoke anyway.

Is there a particular reason you are evading my question?

I am not evading your question. I am trying to show you that your question, respectfully, is irrelevant. You asked: "How is your obedience coming along? Have you fully obeyed God yet?" This question takes the focus completely off of the issue and truth I was illustrating, as you highlighted a specific sentence in red and applied it, out of context, to me. (This is post #113, linear mode) If you want to apply it to me personally in context, then I would fit in as one who is utilizing the space and time to repent and change, by which I explained in the entire thought. The principles I illustrated are true, but your question evades those principles that we must all be aware of.
If you want a direct answer, it is off topic to my full paragraph, but I gladly answer it. My obedience is improving gradually. I have not fully obeyed God yet. Nor do I claim to have had a full witness by the Spirit of Jesus Christ (yet), because, if you read and focused on the point I made, every disobedience we apply to the commandments is the same as denying the truth contained in that commandment. Jesus is the fullness of all Truth. If we deny one truth within a commandment, we are in effect denying Jesus Christ. If the Spirit gave us the full witness of the divinity of Christ when we are still struggling with commandments (and denying the truths contained) then we would become perdition because to deny truth is to deny Jesus. And that is the unpardonable sin.

The Spirit's influence leads us to believe and follow Jesus, but that must not be confused with the sure knowledge of His Divinity, which can only come by the Spirit's full witness. That sure knowledge is the result of growing faith. Faith grows as we learn to keep the commandments. I am learning.

 

[joneysd]

So then, how do these scriptural pieces of the puzzle fit into the big picture that you see?

Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Can we be saved if we are not forgiven? Is forgiving others a necessary effort (work) on our part?

Hebrews 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Who authors our salvation if we do not obey Him? Is not obedience an effort (work)?

Psalms 34:18
The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

We cannot be saved unless our hearts become contrite. How does that happen?

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Peter was not yet converted. (Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.) What did Peter have to do to become converted so he may enter the kingdom? What do we have to do to become as little children, so we can enter the kingdom?

I could make a list a mile long.

none of the list makes any effect on our blood bought salvation..

remember the unpardonable sin....

 

[MormonFriend]

none of the list makes any effect on our blood bought salvation..

remember the unpardonable sin....

Well, you stated how and where (but not why) it does not fit. Where and how DO they fit in your big picture? The net effect of our purchased blood is salvation. Yet salvation does not come to those who do not obey Christ, as my "list" declares. How is that?

I remember well the unpardonable sin. I reexplained it in post # 131.

 

[joneysd]

Well, you stated how and where (but not why) it does not fit. Where and how DO they fit in your big picture? The net effect of our purchased blood is salvation. Yet salvation does not come to those who do not obey Christ, as my "list" declares. How is that?

I remember well the unpardonable sin. I reexplained it in post # 131.

no what you managed to do was add a non existent list that you felt also applied to unpardonable sin, while the unpardonable sin is what it is and if there is only one unpardonable sin then the others you wish to apply cannot be...

If Jesus pays by his blood for all our sins how can any sins be held against us??

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am not evading your question. I am trying to show you that your question, respectfully, is irrelevant. You asked: "How is your obedience coming along? Have you fully obeyed God yet?" This question takes the focus completely off of the issue and truth I was illustrating, as you highlighted a specific sentence in red and applied it, out of context, to me. (This is post #113, linear mode) If you want to apply it to me personally in context, then I would fit in as one who is utilizing the space and time to repent and change, by which I explained in the entire thought. The principles I illustrated are true, but your question evades those principles that we must all be aware of.
If you want a direct answer, it is off topic to my full paragraph, but I gladly answer it. My obedience is improving gradually. I have not fully obeyed God yet. Nor do I claim to have had a full witness by the Spirit of Jesus Christ (yet), because, if you read and focused on the point I made, every disobedience we apply to the commandments is the same as denying the truth contained in that commandment. Jesus is the fullness of all Truth. If we deny one truth within a commandment, we are in effect denying Jesus Christ. If the Spirit gave us the full witness of the divinity of Christ when we are still struggling with commandments (and denying the truths contained) then we would become perdition because to deny truth is to deny Jesus. And that is the unpardonable sin.

The Spirit's influence leads us to believe and follow Jesus, but that must not be confused with the sure knowledge of His Divinity, which can only come by the Spirit's full witness. That sure knowledge is the result of growing faith. Faith grows as we learn to keep the commandments. I am learning.

Thank you for your answer. From it I understand that you have not yet reached a point where you have fully obeyed Christ. How does this imperfect obedience fit with your statement in a following post - "Yet salvation does not come to those who do not obey Christ, as my "list" declares." ? Are you saved or lost?

 

[olderguy]

no james says if you have faith use that faith, what is the point of having the faith to raise the dead if you never use it...

if all our sins are forgiven when we accept jesus what sins are left to account for...

if Grace has saved us by god's free will and love, what do we have to prove to God, it makes no sense...

it is merely self righteousness if we think we have anything to prove...

So you think that accepting Jesus will automatically forgive you of every sin you're going to commit for the rest of your life? That's the lie which is destroying our world.
Accepting Jesus cleared the slate for you. You now have a deposit in you for maybe getting eternal life. But can you be trusted with eternal life? Suppose upon getting it you decide you still want what you want and you will fight God to get your way? That's the reason you have be shown as trustworthy. Based on how you're fighting me about this...well.

 

[joneysd]

So you think that accepting Jesus will automatically forgive you of every sin you're going to commit for the rest of your life? That's the lie which is destroying our world.
Accepting Jesus cleared the slate for you. You now have a deposit in you for maybe getting eternal life. But can you be trusted with eternal life? Suppose upon getting it you decide you still want what you want and you will fight God to get your way? That's the reason you have be shown as trustworthy. Based on how you're fighting me about this...well.

so what sins did Jesus die for, is the blood of Jesus so weak as to not cleanse us fully, how are we any better off than the Jews were, how is this yoke any more easy or light the burden, how is the new covenant even more glorious, why did Jesus come at all??

 

[MormonFriend]

Thank you for your answer. From it I understand that you have not yet reached a point where you have fully obeyed Christ. How does this imperfect obedience fit with your statement in a following post - "Yet salvation does not come to those who do not obey Christ, as my "list" declares." ? Are you saved or lost?

May we first get a clear and common agreement on my statement? Then my response will make more sense!

In light of Hebrews 5:9, does salvation come to those who do not obey Christ?
" 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

 

[joneysd]

May we first get a clear and common agreement on my statement? Then my response will make more sense!

In light of Hebrews 5:9, does salvation come to those who do not obey Christ?
" 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

and how do we obey Christ, by realising who he is and only he can bring salvation, we declare him to be our saviour not our works ...

 

[MormonFriend]

and how do we obey Christ, by realising who he is and only he can bring salvation, we declare him to be our saviour not our works ...

Is this a question or a statement?