"No man knows" hmmmm

[Job8]

Such a false teaching is an anathema according to the apostles and the Cross work of Christ. Such a teaching is a falling away from salvation, a falling away from the grace of Christ.

Have you even studied the OT prophets from Isaiah to Malachi? Do you even know what God's plan is for a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel? Before you make such ludicrous accusations, sit down and do some serious study of Bible prophecies. No commentaries and nothing else. Just Scripture.

ANY temple built by modern day Christ REJECTORS will NOT be "Gods temple" and will NOT house the Shekinah Glory.

Where did you get the idea that the Millenial Temple will be built by Christ rejecters? Study Ezekiel before you make such irresponsible remarks. Please note (and this is just one of hundreds of Scriptures):

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and JERUSALEM, And it shall come to pass in the last days that THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD'S HOUSE shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills... for OUT OF ZION shall go forth the Law, and the Word of the LORD FROM JERUSALEM... O HOUSE OF JACOB, come ye, and let us walk in THE LIGHT OF THE LORD" (Isa 2:1-5).

The house of Jacob is redeemed and restored Israel, and the Lord's house is the Temple at Jerusalem. God's Shekinah Glory -- "the light of the LORD" -- will be over this Temple. The nation will be saved by grace through faith and after much mourning and repentance. Just like all other sinners.

The sad truth is that the majority of preachers and Christians have not sat down with the Old Testament and carefully looked at all the pronouncements God has made about Israel. They have consulted commentaries instead. God speaks of severe judgements followed by the redemption and restoration of Israel under Christ. Every Christian should believe this and thank God for His grace and mercy to all.

 

[Choose Wisely]

=PhillipLaSpino;66859347]

In Matt.24:33-34-35, Jesus said, “When ye shall see all these things (all the end time events He spoke of in Matt.24,) know that it (the time) is near, even at the door.” --- “This generation (those living at the time who witness these things, they), shall NOT pass till all these things be fulfilled.”

So there are those in this end time generation who will witness the events described in Matt.24, and some shall still be alive when they end) ---- Jesus goes on to say, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Talk about taking things out of context.

Matt 24
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled

The generation that Jesus us referring to is not the generation he is talking to... it is the generation that sees the end time events described earlier in Matt 24.

Some of you guys..........I can only shake my head and wonder..........

 

[BABerean2]

Television preachers have been telling me that we will know when Christ will return because it will be 7 years after the pretrib rapture and 3 1/2 years after the antichrist signs the treaty with Israel and then breaks it when he stands in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem claiming to be God.

The problem is that all of this false narrative is built upon the sand of twisted scripture. I now get a sick feeling when I hear this nonsense, even though many of them are very sincere in what they are saying.

Based upon the words of the angel Gabriel, the 70 weeks has already been completed. Christ confirmed the covenant with the many. There is no future 70th week for an antichrist to break a treaty during the last 3 1/2 years.
Although this understanding is foreign to many today, it is clearly written in the commentary of my 1599 Geneva Bible, which is just as, or more valid than what is written in Scofield's Reference Bible.


In Matthew chapter 24 the disciples asked Christ 2 questions.
1. When will the temple be destroyed?

He gave the signs that would proceed the destruction of the temple in the first half of Matthew chapter 24. Luke's account in 21:20 spells out the Abomination of Desolation and 21:24 details the fall of the city.
The city had already been surrounded by the Romans under Cestus Gallus in 66 AD, but for some unknown reason the Romans left and suffered heavy losses during their retreat.
The Christians left before the siege of 70 AD and fled to Pella. They did as Christ commanded in Matthew 24. They fled.



2. What will be the sign of your return and the end of the world(age).

The last half of Matthew chapter 24 speaks of the 2nd Coming. We could write volumes on which verse changes over from the first question to the second, so I will avoid that here.
Christ said that He did not even know when it would occur and he gave no specific signs that would tell us when it would occur.

However, it will occur as certain as the existence of the universe.


.

 

[Interplanner]

ChooseW:
the generation he was talking to saw the things in Mt24A. That's why it has the intro that it has. The dreamer apostles admire the buildings of the temple complex only to find out they will be ruins very soon. That is the topic of Mt24A.

 

[Job8]

Television preachers have been telling me that we will know when Christ will return because it will be 7 years after the pretrib rapture and 3 1/2 years after the antichrist signs the treaty with Israel and then breaks it when he stands in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem claiming to be God.

Date setting is always unwise. However, immediately after Daniel's 70th week, the Lord will come "with power and great glory". This is clear from both Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

Based upon the words of the angel Gabriel, the 70 weeks has already been completed. Christ confirmed the covenant with the many. There is no future 70th week for an antichrist to break a treaty during the last 3 1/2 years.

Actually only 69 of the 70 weeks have been completed. Preterists try to put and end to Bible prophecy at 70 AD, but that is completely false.

The last half of Matthew chapter 24 speaks of the 2nd Coming.

So has the world seen the following phenomena? (Mt 24:29; Rev 6:12-14)
1. The sun darkened (black)
2. The moon darkened (as blood)
3. Stars falling from heaven to earth
4. The powers of heaven shaken (heaven departed as a scroll)
5. A great earthquake
6. Every mountain and island moved out of its place

No one with an ounce of sense would say that these cataclysmic phenomena have already occurred. And they must precede the coming of Christ. However THE DAY AND THE HOUR will not be disclosed.

 

[Rev20]

Actually only 69 of the 70 weeks have been completed. Preterists try to put and end to Bible prophecy at 70 AD, but that is completely false.

Baloney. Jesus did not show up as the Messiah until the end of the 69th week, which means he began his ministry at the beginning of the 70th week. The scripture says he was killed in the middle (midst) of that week, which means he preached for approximately 3.5 years, or one-half week Daniel time. That left one-half week of covenant confirmation, which the disciples fulfilled for Christ.

Where do futurist come up with their illogical numbers? Must be that New Math.

 

[Rev20]

So has the world seen the following phenomena? (Mt 24:29; Rev 6:12-14)
1. The sun darkened (black)
2. The moon darkened (as blood)
3. Stars falling from heaven to earth
4. The powers of heaven shaken (heaven departed as a scroll)
5. A great earthquake
6. Every mountain and island moved out of its place

No one with an ounce of sense would say that these cataclysmic phenomena have already occurred. And they must precede the coming of Christ. However THE DAY AND THE HOUR will not be disclosed.

You will never understand the scripture as long as you insist on taking parabolic, allegorical, figurative, symbolic language as literal.

Have you ever stopped to think what might happen if a single star "fell" to the earth? Or, if every mountain and island moved out its place? There would be no life left on earth.

But do not fear: that was all symbolic. This happened in the judgement of Idumea a long time ago:

"Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment." -- Isa 34:3-5​

Where can we find a historical record of the heavens rolling together as a scroll, or the heaven being dissolved? You do believe that literally happened, don't you?

Antiochus IV did this in the 2nd century B.C.:

"And [Antiochus] waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and [he] cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them." -- Dan 8:10​

Antiochus would have made Superman look like a wimp, if that had been literally fulfilled. But, it was all symbolic.

You may have also noticed that in the Revelation, stars are not stars:

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." -- Rev 1:20​

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit." -- Rev 9:1​

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16​

So, what have we? Stars are not stars, heaven is not heaven, beasts are not beasts, lambs are not lambs, waters are not waters, fire is not fire, swords are not swords, and harlots are not harlots, to name a few. It is also most likely hail is not hail:

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." -- Rev 16:20​

"The [catapult] engines, that all the [Roman] legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book V.6.3, p 1424]​

 

[Interplanner]

Or, where do people come up with scientific detail in the OT? If Peter says the day of the Lord was happening, and the futurists insist on scientific specs in the OT, then Peter is wrong, they say.

 

[riverrat]

Or, where do people come up with scientific detail in the OT? If Peter says the day of the Lord was happening, and the futurists insist on scientific specs in the OT, then Peter is wrong, they say.

Name a futurist that says that Peter is wrong about anything.

 

[Job8]

You will never understand the scripture as long as you insist on taking parabolic, allegorical, figurative, symbolic language as literal.

That comment is very revealing. If your system of hermeneutics is true, then the Gospel itself can become allegorical and figurative also. Origen (a Gnostic if ever there was one) was very good at such speculation. Treat Scripture as allegorical and you can make anything mean anything else.

We can either take the words of Christ in their plain, literal, factual, historical or prophetic meaning, or we all are doomed to endless speculation as to what is literal and what is not. God is not the God of confusion and speculation.

How come you were insisting on the literal interpretation of Matthew 24 until you ran into this roadblock? Was the destruction of the Temple figurative? If that was literal, absolutely everything in the Olivet Discourse is literal. Otherwise we could have a figurative second coming of Christ (as the full Preterists have surmised to their own detriment). If Christ has already come "with power and great glory" what is Satan doing controlling the Islamists? He should be in the Lake of Fire. And how come sin and evil and apostasy are growing exponentially?

 

[Rev20]

That comment is very revealing. If your system of hermeneutics is true, then the Gospel itself can become allegorical and figurative also. Origen (a Gnostic if ever there was one) was very good at such speculation. Treat Scripture as allegorical and you can make anything mean anything else.

Is that not what you are doing by pretending everything is future? How long has this antichrist game been played? Who is the antichrist this month?
.

We can either take the words of Christ in their plain, literal, factual, historical or prophetic meaning, or we all are doomed to endless speculation as to what is literal and what is not. God is not the God of confusion and speculation.

We have been doomed to endless speculation since the early Church "fathers" endorsed (many of them) the false doctrine of chiliasm, a.k.a., the fable of the thousand-year earthly reign.

You claim to take things literally? Prove it. Show me a single verse in the New Testament that states Christ will ever step foot on the earth again. You cannot.
.

How come you were insisting on the literal interpretation of Matthew 24 until you ran into this roadblock?

I believe all of Matthew 24 is fulfilled. What roadblock are you referring to?
.

Was the destruction of the Temple figurative? If that was literal, absolutely everything in the Olivet Discourse is literal.

Not everything. Some was based on allegorical Old Testament prophetic language. For example, Christ said he was coming in clouds. That is possibly based on this language from Isaiah regarding the judgement of Egypt:

"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." -- Isa 19:1 KJV​

If anyone saw that literally happen, it was not recorded, that I am aware of. But that does not mean it was not literally fulfilled. I simply mean I was not there and I do not know what happened.

There was also this strange event that happened during the destruction of Jerusalem according to Josephus, as translated by William Whiston, 1737:

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day​

of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Book VI.5.3, p.1484]​

This is from a two volume set on Josephus by a different translator, Robert Traill, 1851:

“What I am about to relate would, I conceive, be deemed a mere fable, had it not been related by eye-witnesses, and attended by calamities commensurate with such portents. Before sunset were seen around the whole country chariots poised in the air, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and investing the cities.” [Robert Traill, "The Jewish War of Flavius Josephus Vol II." Houlston and Stoneman, 1851, Matt 24:30, p.197]​

Tacitus (a pagan Roman Historian) wrote this about the same event:

"There had happened omens and prodigies, things which that nation so addicted to superstition, but so averse to the Gods, hold it unlawful to expiate either by vows or victims. Hosts were seen to encounter in the air, refulgent arms appeared; and, by a blaze of lightning shooting suddenly from the clouds, all the Temple was illuminated. The great gates of the Temple were of themselves in an instant thrown open, and a voice more than human heard to declare, that “the Gods were going to depart.” [The Works of Tacitus, Vol 4, Book V, The Summary]"​

Was that Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory? If not, exactly how would that happen?
.

Otherwise we could have a figurative second coming of Christ (as the full Preterists have surmised to their own detriment). If Christ has already come "with power and great glory" what is Satan doing controlling the Islamists?

He came the first time in judgement over the filthy city called Jerusalem, and the exceptionally mean and vicious people who ruled it. The next time every knee shall bow to Him as we confess our sins. That is our destiny: our judgement time.

I believe where your misunderstanding with my doctrine lies, is this: I interpret prophecy exactly like you. We both take some things literal and some things figurative. Our primary difference is, I try to make the events fit into the time allotted. You take the events and try to make the time fit them. That is why a simple statement like this means something entirely different to the futurist and preterist:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matt 24:34 KJV​

I believe the proper way to interpret "this generation" is the way it is normally interpreted in every day conversation. If I wanted it to mean some other generation than the current generation, I would use the term "that generation," or variations; but never this generation. In other words, I would use language like this:

"Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways." -- Heb 3:10 KJV​

Yet, I do not claim to be a literalist (except in jest,) and you do. LOL!

The pretense of "literalist" by anyone interpreting the Bible is as much a fable as a thousand year earthly reign.

 

[KrAZeD]

Was the destruction of the Temple figurative? If that was literal, absolutely everything in the Olivet Discourse is literal.

That literally came out of my mouth in a discussion with a friend today, He couldn't discern exactly where it went from literal to symbolic nor explain why both would even G intertwined in a single narrative of actions concerning one event. You have a literal destruction of a city, a literal return of the Lord but the middle is symbolic and or allegorical.

 

[BABerean2]

Date setting is always unwise. However, immediately after Daniel's 70th week, the Lord will come "with power and great glory". This is clear from both Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.


Actually only 69 of the 70 weeks have been completed. Preterists try to put and end to Bible prophecy at 70 AD, but that is completely false.


So has the world seen the following phenomena? (Mt 24:29; Rev 6:12-14)
1. The sun darkened (black)
2. The moon darkened (as blood)
3. Stars falling from heaven to earth
4. The powers of heaven shaken (heaven departed as a scroll)
5. A great earthquake
6. Every mountain and island moved out of its place

No one with an ounce of sense would say that these cataclysmic phenomena have already occurred. And they must precede the coming of Christ. However THE DAY AND THE HOUR will not be disclosed.

We should all be in shock when anyone claims to be a literalist, and then adds a gap of almost 2,000 years not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

They also change a verse about Christ confirming a covenant with many, which He confirmed with His own words, into a treaty broken by the antichrist.


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



And then they turn around and claim others are spiritualizing the text.

Are you serious?

.

 

[Danoh]

We should all be in shock when anyone claims to be a literalist, and then adds a gap of almost 2,000 years not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

They also change a verse about Christ confirming a covenant with many, which He confirmed with His own words, into a treaty broken by the antichrist.


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



And then they turn around and claim others are spiritualizing the text.

Are you serious?

.

The Gap is literal, and was prophesied before Daniel, and did not have that Church which is His Body in mind, as that Church was "hid in God."

In this, "the many" that Jesus spoke of refers to the believing remnant of Israel, Isaiah 53:5, 11.

For "at that time" the "Gentiles were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world," Eph. 2:12.

Why do you think He related to them that this is my blood of the new covenant" as if it is not new; as if they expected this new covenant; which they did, because it was prophesied.

It is only after Israel's prophesied Gap - that nation's prophesied blinding in part - and God's temporarily turning to the Gentiles as He had secretly planned in Himself, per Paul that an equally secret aspect of what took place at the Cross was revealed through "that gospel which" declares Paul "was committed to my trust," Titus 1.

I'll leave you to sort out where Israel's prophesied gap was prophesied, as you need to study that out on your own, that you then have to gainsay the Scriptures over what you have erroneously concluded is "some modern notion of Dispensationalism..."

Of course, you can respond to this as your have with my challenge that you exegete Romans 11:25.

 

[Job8]

We should all be in shock when anyone claims to be a literalist, and then adds a gap of almost 2,000 years not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

Did you notice how you dodged the issue which was presented and moved the focus to an entirely different issue? That proves that Preterists cannot explain when and how those cataclysmic events of Matthew 24 occurred and this earth is still standing. The answer is simple -- they have not occurred as yet. They are yet future!

Literalists don't add "gaps". If they occur it is because God adds the gap. If the Lord chooses to put a gap of 2,000 or 3,000 years between His first and second coming, who are we to question that? See 2 Pet 2:1-13.

They also change a verse about Christ confirming a covenant with many, which He confirmed with His own words, into a treaty broken by the antichrist.

The Antichrist's covenant (or fake covenant) with Israel is totally unrelated to the New Covenant of Christ, and Daniel makes no reference to the New Covenant. He simply says that "[after 69 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off" (crucified)( Dan 9:26). If you would simply read Daniel 9 and connect it to Mt 24:15, you would see for yourself that this chapter is referring to the Antichrist and his Abomination of Desolation. Messiah's crucifixion is mentioned to mark the end of 69 "weeks" of years (7 + 60 + 2 = 69).

So once again, when did those cosmic and cataclysmic events of Mt 24 occur according to your hermeneutic (without allegorical explanations)? If they did not, then you must revise your entire concept of the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Rev20]

Did you notice how you dodged the issue which was presented and moved the focus to an entirely different issue? That proves that Preterists cannot explain when and how those cataclysmic events of Matthew 24 occurred and this earth is still standing. The answer is simple -- they have not occurred as yet. They are yet future!

Have you not read the Bible? This earth will be here forever.
.

Literalists don't add "gaps". If they occur it is because God adds the gap. If the Lord chooses to put a gap of 2,000 or 3,000 years between His first and second coming, who are we to question that? See 2 Pet 2:1-13.

No doubt Christianity has been plagued by false teachers and false prophets over the years (2 Peter 2:1); but all were from the futurist ranks. Some were blatant, like Lindsey, Whisnant and Camping; and others more subtle, like Grant Jeffrey and John Walvoord. But all were futurists.
.

The Antichrist's covenant (or fake covenant) with Israel is totally unrelated to the New Covenant of Christ, and Daniel makes no reference to the New Covenant. He simply says that "[after 69 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off" (crucified)( Dan 9:26).

How long after 69 weeks?
.

If you would simply read Daniel 9 and connect it to Mt 24:15, you would see for yourself that this chapter is referring to the Antichrist and his Abomination of Desolation. Messiah's crucifixion is mentioned to mark the end of 69 "weeks" of years (7 + 60 + 2 = 69).

The Abomination of Desolation occurred when Roman troops stepped onto the Holy Land (Cestius, 66AD; Luke 21:20-22.) That was when the Christians in Judaea fled to the mountains, as instructed by Christ in three of the four Gospels.
.

So once again, when did those cosmic and cataclysmic events of Mt 24 occur according to your hermeneutic (without allegorical explanations)? If they did not, then you must revise your entire concept of the Olivet Discourse.

When you explain all the cosmic and cataclysmic events of the Old Testament, for which there is no mention in history, then you will have a little more credibility.

 

[Danoh]

That literally came out of my mouth in a discussion with a friend today, He couldn't discern exactly where it went from literal to symbolic nor explain why both would even G intertwined in a single narrative of actions concerning one event. You have a literal destruction of a city, a literal return of the Lord but the middle is symbolic and or allegorical.

Reminds me of a kid's joke - Two ducks were swimming along, when one them utters, "Quack."

"Oh my gosh," the other duck exclaims, "I was just about to say the exact same thing!"

So, was the first one a Preterist, and the other a Partial-Preterist

On that note, how many Preterists does it take to change a light bulb? None... the claim is its already been done, lol

 

[BABerean2]

How many futurists does it take to change a lightbulb?


None.

They claim it has not been invented yet.





.

 

[Interplanner]

To Job8:
to answer some basic questions:
1, the 70th week is the Gospel event mentioned in the list of things accomplished through Messiah in those verses. There is no splitting it from the rest. V27b is probably meant to be understood as outside the week itself but caused by it (the evil character and the destruction of the city).

2, what Mt24A is saying is in reference to that generation of Israel, and about Judea. This use of the term 'land' 'earth' is found elsewhere in Matthew and meant Israel. At v29 of course the setting shifts to be universal. This leaves one question: why didn't the end of the world happen as immediate as expected--right after the DofJ? Likewise, why wasn't it as immediate as 2 Th 1? The only answers we have are also in Mt24, after v29: only the Father would decide. In Mk 13 there is also the parable of the attentive servants, who are told there are 4 possible times the Master might return.

3, I agree with most of Rev20's posts, but on the AofD, I don't know why actions by Roman armies would be an abomination that Israel would suffer for. My view is that the AofD is the person who lead the zealots down the wrong warpath. He is Dan 8:13's leader of the 'rebellion that desolates.' The DofJ was definitely a rebellion that desolated the country! And then the blame fall squarely on the majority of Israel, because it 'refused him who warns from heaven' in the letter to the Hebrews. That's the Hebrews!

 

[Danoh]

How many futurists does it take to change a lightbulb?


None.

They claim it has not been invented yet.





.

Actually, there's "a gap" between changings

Enjoy your Sunday, brother...