the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[MormonFriend]

The fallacy with this analogy is you ain't God. God did not state that we had to get a perfect score in flying lessons or any other "requirement." Despite your analogy we cannot make ourselves ready to receive the gift God offers us. When we receive salvation we are not going to crash and burn injuring innocent people because nothing is dependent on us.

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Heb 5: 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I do not believe we must attain perfection in this life, but never giving up in the pursuit of perfection is enduring to the end. And that enduring is a requirement!
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I do believe we can always do better today, than we did yesterday. That requires faith, focus, and effort (works). "Enduring" denotes effort! When a person proves that nothing is more important than doing God's will, and surrendering his own will, that is an ingredient to being converted (a requirement of salvation). Once that character or trait is established, eternity is plenty of time to achieve the goal.

 

[MormonFriend]

so there is a list of qualifications for the free gift of Grace....

could you supply the list please...

You keep bringing up the word "list"! If one looks at it as a "list", he may take it and keep every item on that list, and still not be converted. He would do the list because he knows he has to, not because he wants to. The young rich man kept all that Jesus required when Jesus gave him a small list. And then he asked what more does he lack. Jesus' answer exposed the fact that he was not converted.

Being converted means, among other things, doing God's will because you love Him, and pleasing Him brings the greatest joy. When love is the motive, one will never falter. When compulsion and duty are the motives, faltering is certain. Heaven would not be heaven with faltering. The wheat learns to love by keeping the commandments, and will harmonize with the surroundings in heaven. The tares must be compelled in things, and will clash with the surroundings in heaven. They will be separated. Mortality has a unique way of exposing our true colors.

 

[Theway]

You keep bringing up the word "list"! If one looks at it as a "list", he may take it and keep every item on that list, and still not be converted. He would do the list because he knows he has to, not because he wants to. The young rich man kept all that Jesus required when Jesus gave him a small list. And then he asked what more does he lack. Jesus' answer exposed the fact that he was not converted.

Being converted means, among other things, doing God's will because you love Him, and pleasing Him brings the greatest joy. When love is the motive, one will never falter. When compulsion and duty are the motives, faltering is certain. Heaven would not be heaven with faltering. The wheat learns to love by keeping the commandments, and will harmonize with the surroundings in heaven. The tares must be compelled in things, and will clash with the surroundings in heaven. They will be separated. Mortality has a unique way of exposing our true colors.

I have gone over this many times with them, but they keep bringing up the same question or demand ignoring the answer.

It is not a number or a list... It's a percentage; one must obey 100% of the commandments given to you. And not only must you obey 100%, but it must be done with the proper attitude, and at the proper time.

 

[joneysd]

You keep bringing up the word "list"! If one looks at it as a "list", he may take it and keep every item on that list, and still not be converted. He would do the list because he knows he has to, not because he wants to. The young rich man kept all that Jesus required when Jesus gave him a small list. And then he asked what more does he lack. Jesus' answer exposed the fact that he was not converted.

Being converted means, among other things, doing God's will because you love Him, and pleasing Him brings the greatest joy. When love is the motive, one will never falter. When compulsion and duty are the motives, faltering is certain. Heaven would not be heaven with faltering. The wheat learns to love by keeping the commandments, and will harmonize with the surroundings in heaven. The tares must be compelled in things, and will clash with the surroundings in heaven. They will be separated. Mortality has a unique way of exposing our true colors.

you clearly don't understand what Jesus was saying to the rich young man, which is a pity as it would help the lds predicament...

when the rich young man was asked if he had kept all the commandments by Jesus he said yes all his life, Jesus knew by that answer that the man was delusional, Jesus knew he was full of self righteousness and part of his self righteousness was clinging to his wealth. the wealth he had established for himself, When Jesus said give a way all you have , he was actually saying stop relying on yourself for your fortune and your salvation, what you need is Jesus but like many others the rich man would rather rely on his own ability to keep the commandments and keep himself rich by his own ability...

now where is this list of things we must do before we can have the free gift of salvation...

 

[Ironhold]

No such list exists.

 

[MormonFriend]

I have gone over this many times with them, but they keep bringing up the same question or demand ignoring the answer.

It is not a number or a list... It's a percentage; one must obey 100% of the commandments given to you. And not only must you obey 100%, but it must be done with the proper attitude, and at the proper time.

Or, in other words, we must be converted. When converted, we don't "have" to obey, we "get" to obey. Which is the "proper attitude" you mentioned.

 

[MormonFriend]

you clearly don't understand what Jesus was saying to the rich young man, ...

I think you might need a calibration of your "clearly" conception.

.... when the rich young man was asked if he had kept all the commandments by Jesus he said yes all his life, Jesus knew by that answer that the man was delusional, Jesus knew he was full of self righteousness and part of his self righteousness was clinging to his wealth. the wealth he had established for himself, When Jesus said give a way all you have , he was actually saying stop relying on yourself for your fortune and your salvation, what you need is Jesus but like many others the rich man would rather rely on his own ability to keep the commandments and keep himself rich by his own ability...

You are bringing out obvious issues of evidences that a person is not "converted". And that is what I said about the rich young man, he was looking for a list of things he must do. A person can "do" the list he looks for. But if he does them with the wrong idea of purpose, it will avail him nothing. Jesus knew this kid was not converted, and hit the nail on the head that exposed the needed change of heart, so he could be converted. Even Peter lacked conversion. It is a lesson for us all, to find the things we will not let go of, things that prevent us from true spiritual understandings and experiences.

...now where is this list of things we must do before we can have the free gift of salvation...

You tell me! You introduced the idea that there must be a list.

If a person, who claims to be saved because of his/her belief in Jesus, does not forgive another person for their trespasses against him/her, will he/she be saved?

On another perspective, what if true and genuine belief in Jesus means that you do everything taught? On that concept, the idea of "grace alone" has merit. Yet it would take lots of faith and works to believe on that level. "All things are possible to them that believe."

 

[joneysd]

it wasn't me who said I needed a list, I believe the Grace of God is sufficient and can be accepted by anyone, it's the lds who think you have to do everything else yourself first...

the usual stuff, get married several times, temple ordinances, missionary work, the priesthood, being a good mormon... see it's your list not mine..

 

[joneysd]

You keep bringing up the word "list"! If one looks at it as a "list", he may take it and keep every item on that list, and still not be converted. He would do the list because he knows he has to, not because he wants to. The young rich man kept all that Jesus required when Jesus gave him a small list. And then he asked what more does he lack. Jesus' answer exposed the fact that he was not converted.

Being converted means, among other things, doing God's will because you love Him, and pleasing Him brings the greatest joy. When love is the motive, one will never falter. When compulsion and duty are the motives, faltering is certain. Heaven would not be heaven with faltering. The wheat learns to love by keeping the commandments, and will harmonize with the surroundings in heaven. The tares must be compelled in things, and will clash with the surroundings in heaven. They will be separated. Mortality has a unique way of exposing our true colors.

converted, what does God's grace have to do with being converted...

 

[Theway]

converted, what does God's grace have to do with being converted...

It has everything to do with Grace.... Unless you are one of those that believe we are forced unto salvation against our will???

 

[MormonFriend]

converted, what does God's grace have to do with being converted...

Everything! Because we couldn't love Him (and others) if He didn't love us first! And His Son showed how to serve, suffer, and sacrifice for God and fellow man. Without His Grace, we would not be able, on our own, to do this!

 

[skylark1]

converted, what does God's grace have to do with being converted...

Matthew 18

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[joneysd]

Everything! Because we couldn't love Him (and others) if He didn't love us first! And His Son showed how to serve, suffer, and sacrifice for God and fellow man. Without His Grace, we would not be able, on our own, to do this!

so if we can only love others because he loved us first, why is his grace only good enough after everything we do....

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend

It is not to accept, anyone can and would accept. It is a qualification to receive. And a list is not necessary, if even one requirement is made, the idea of Grace alone is moot because Christ declared that requirement.

I could offer you a free gift in the form of a Leer Jet, but I would require you to get a perfect score in flying lessons which I pay for. And you may repeat the course when you fail. Surely you can understand why I would make the requirements. You must be fully prepared to receive this gift, else you destroy the gift, yourself, and innocent bystanders if you take to the skies without understanding how to fly.

Eternal life in a glorified eternal body has the same principle of the need to control its powers. The gift is paid for, and ready for delivery, but we must be ready to receive it..

The fallacy with this analogy is you ain't God. God did not state that we had to get a perfect score in flying lessons or any other "requirement." Despite your analogy we cannot make ourselves ready to receive the gift God offers us. When we receive salvation we are not going to crash and burn injuring innocent people because nothing is dependent on us.

Our concept of "salvation" is different, so it is difficult to speak in common terms when explaining it. You put the pieces of the puzzle together one way and it makes a much different big picture than what I have. The caution is to not take one piece of our puzzle and try to compare it to where it does not fit in your puzzle.

When I say "crash and burn", one simply needs to look at how mankind applies their passions and desires with their bodies. We see so many episodes of crashing and burning that affects everyone, because this society does not adequately govern personal appetites. Wars, mass shootings at schools and public places, child molestation, .... the list is endless!

If we were to be introduced into God's social structure in heaven, without having learned to bridle all passions and demonstrating that we will do so at all costs, heaven would end up like it is hear on earth. Hence, the wheat shall be separated from the tares. Or those that took the figurative "flying lessons" serious will be separated from those who would not learn to control the powers given them.

Do you believe that if we do not learn, by faith, to control our temporary physical bodies here in mortality, that we will miraculously do so with the glorified bodies in the resurrection?

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend

Everything! Because we couldn't love Him (and others) if He didn't love us first! And His Son showed how to serve, suffer, and sacrifice for God and fellow man. Without His Grace, we would not be able, on our own, to do this!

so if we can only love others because he loved us first, why is his grace only good enough after everything we do....

It is not a question of if His Grace is "good enough"! The fact is that we cannot do the things He commands us to do without His Grace. We learn what His Grace truly is as we discover how we can do His will.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

When we find the way that God made to escape, we discover His Grace.

 

[joneysd]

It is not a question of if His Grace is "good enough"! The fact is that we cannot do the things He commands us to do without His Grace. We learn what His Grace truly is as we discover how we can do His will.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

When we find the way that God made to escape, we discover His Grace.

lol we have his Grace so when we cannot help but sin as we are sinful by nature, he does not hold our sin against us...

we do not discover his Grace as we stop sinning as we cannot, we discover his Grace through knowing he loves us and accept us despite our sin..

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend

It is not a question of if His Grace is "good enough"! The fact is that we cannot do the things He commands us to do without His Grace. We learn what His Grace truly is as we discover how we can do His will.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

When we find the way that God made to escape, we discover His Grace.

lol we have his Grace so when we cannot help but sin as we are sinful by nature, ...

How can you say this in light of the scripture you just read, posted above?
What is 1 Cor. 10:13 mean to you?

...he does not hold our sin against us...

That is not always the case.
Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

...we do not discover his Grace as we stop sinning ...

I did not say we discover His Grace "as we stop sinning". I said we discover His Grace as we find the way He prepared for us to escape temptation.

... as we stop sinning as we cannot, ...

Where do you get the idea that we cannot?
Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Did Mark give us any exclusions as you are doing?

Jesus forgave the woman taken in sin, and told her to "sin no more"! Is Jesus going to tell her to do something that cannot be done?

we discover his Grace through knowing he loves us and accept us despite our sin..

Then why is He the Author of salvation only to those who obey Him, as it is declared in Hebrews 5?

You say we cannot stop sinning, I'll give you an example of one way it is possible. Imagine a couple who are married, but not to each other, and have been attracted to each other, find themselves alone in a compromising situation where temptation is overcoming them. As they begin passionate activity, all of a sudden the smoke alarm goes off. Sure enough, there is flickering light and smoke outside the bedroom. All of a sudden, they find means to quench temptation, because a higher motivation was brought to their attention. We just proved that they can stop sinning.

But that was a temporary means and motivation. Other opportunities will arise where a fire will not be available to stop them. But what if the motivation was a sure knowledge and love for Jesus Christ? He said:

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Genuine Love, and genuine faith in Jesus are not temporary, they are eternal. If we possess them, we will not need a smoke detector, we would be in possession of permanent power to overcome all things, the ultimate motivator.

This level of love and faith does not happen overnight. It takes a lifetime, ... maybe more. We will make mistakes as we pursue this love and faith. His Grace is sufficient to forgive us of our sins as we make mistakes along the way, if we truly repent of them. The genuineness of repentance is measured by a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And that path will lead us to the way that God provided for us to escape, as described in 1 Cor. 10:13.

Salvation does not depend on perfecting ourselves in this life, but salvation depends on enduring to the end in pursuit of that perfection.
Matthew 24: 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[joneysd]

How can you say this in light of the scripture you just read, posted above?
What is 1 Cor. 10:13 mean to you?




That is not always the case.
Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
I did not say we discover His Grace "as we stop sinning". I said we discover His Grace as we find the way He prepared for us to escape temptation.



Where do you get the idea that we cannot?
Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Did Mark give us any exclusions as you are doing?

Jesus forgave the woman taken in sin, and told her to "sin no more"! Is Jesus going to tell her to do something that cannot be done?

Then why is He the Author of salvation only to those who obey Him, as it is declared in Hebrews 5?

You say we cannot stop sinning, I'll give you an example of one way it is possible. Imagine a couple who are married, but not to each other, and have been attracted to each other, find themselves alone in a compromising situation where temptation is overcoming them. As they begin passionate activity, all of a sudden the smoke alarm goes off. Sure enough, there is flickering light and smoke outside the bedroom. All of a sudden, they find means to quench temptation, because a higher motivation was brought to their attention. We just proved that they can stop sinning.

But that was a temporary means and motivation. Other opportunities will arise where a fire will not be available to stop them. But what if the motivation was a sure knowledge and love for Jesus Christ? He said:

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Genuine Love, and genuine faith in Jesus are not temporary, they are eternal. If we possess them, we will not need a smoke detector, we would be in possession of permanent power to overcome all things, the ultimate motivator.

This level of love and faith does not happen overnight. It takes a lifetime, ... maybe more. We will make mistakes as we pursue this love and faith. His Grace is sufficient to forgive us of our sins as we make mistakes along the way, if we truly repent of them. The genuineness of repentance is measured by a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And that path will lead us to the way that God provided for us to escape, as described in 1 Cor. 10:13.

Salvation does not depend on perfecting ourselves in this life, but salvation depends on enduring to the end in pursuit of that perfection.
Matthew 24: 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

for there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, it does not mean we won't sin anymore, it means our sins will not be held against us...

what sins did Jesus die for , if not all our sins then he died for none of our sins...

and what were Jesus's commandments. love one another and love God...

we all try to do our best but it is all as filthy rags before God , our righteousness or self righteousness would be a better description s filth before God.

Only the free gift of righteousness through Jesus is good enough...

 

[MormonFriend]

for there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, it does not mean we won't sin anymore, it means our sins will not be held against us...

...

If you do not forgive others who have trespassed against you, will you be forgiven?

 

[MormonFriend]

Repeat post deleted.