the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[Der Alte]

I didn't say that. Is repenting earning salvation? Is having a humble heart earning salvation? Is forgiving others earning salvation? Is getting baptized earning salvation? None of these things "earn salvation" which cannot be earned. That does not mean that it does not have some prerequisites like being truly humble and repentant. For you to discount that means you believe in the phariseeism of the magic words which Jesus Himself showed was the wrong attitude when He said "21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

The accusation of Phariseeism is insulting! I posted my scripture please post yours? Please show me where Paul did any of this before his Damascus road experience or the Philippian jailor? "repenting, having a humble heart, forgiving others, getting baptized, being truly humble and repentant"?

 

[RevelationTestament]

The accusation of Phariseeism is insulting!

The point is der Alter, there are no magic words which will save anyone. The literal position of faith and salvation as a gift is misleading. I believe it is phariseeism. I don't believe we will be offered that gift unless we repent. I don't believe we will be offered that gift unless we truly believe and are willing to commit to Him and make Him our master. To have a master implies following commands. Anything else renders the rest of the word meaningless in my view. It is a whole - not I follow this part to the exclusion of everything else.

I posted my scripture please post yours?

I already did in that passage. There are multiple others.

• Hebrews 5:9
  
  9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Please show me where Paul did any of this before his Damascus road experience or the Philippian jailor? "repenting, having a humble heart, forgiving others, getting baptized, being truly humble and repentant"?

Paul is quite the anomaly isn't he? So how come the Lord doesn't appear to His other persecutors? Do you believe He was foreordained to be an apostle? "15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Are you saying he was saved at that point? I don't recall Jesus saying He was forgiven. What did Paul do?
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
It is quite clear that Jesus appeared to Paul because he was chosen of the Father. Why? for his righteousness before Jesus? certainly not - Paul hadn't even expressed any faith in Christ. You are inferring everyone receives this grace as a gift with nothing on their part, so yippee!! everyone is saved and can go home and not worry about it.

 

[joneysd]

The point is der Alter, there are no magic words which will save anyone. The literal position of faith and salvation as a gift is misleading. I believe it is phariseeism. I don't believe we will be offered that gift unless we repent. I don't believe we will be offered that gift unless we truly believe and are willing to commit to Him and make Him our master. To have a master implies following commands. Anything else renders the rest of the word meaningless in my view. It is a whole - not I follow this part to the exclusion of everything else.

I already did in that passage. There are multiple others.

• Hebrews 5:9
  
  9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Paul is quite the anomaly isn't he? So how come the Lord doesn't appear to His other persecutors? Do you believe He was foreordained to be an apostle? "15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Are you saying he was saved at that point? I don't recall Jesus saying He was forgiven. What did Paul do?
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
It is quite clear that Jesus appeared to Paul because he was chosen of the Father. Why? for his righteousness before Jesus? certainly not - Paul hadn't even expressed any faith in Christ. You are inferring everyone receives this grace as a gift with nothing on their part, so yippee!! everyone is saved and can go home and not worry about it.

no there are no magic words, garments or ordinances that will save anyone but according to john 3 16 that whom so ever shall believe on Jesus will be saved...

 

[Der Alte]

The point is der Alter, there are no magic words which will save anyone.

I agree. What about Paul and the Philippian jailor?

The literal position of faith and salvation as a gift is misleading.

So for you Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient we have to add all kinds of works to earn our salvation.

I believe it is phariseeism.

Salvation by works is Phartiseeism. They are the ones that demanded that everyone strictly follow the letter of the law.

I don't believe we will be offered that gift unless we repent.

I agree that is the only thing we have to do.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. [Joe 2:32]

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [Joel 2:32]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

I don't believe we will be offered that gift unless we truly believe and are willing to commit to Him and make Him our master.

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not enough? There are works we must do to earn our salvation?

To have a master implies following commands. Anything else renders the rest of the word meaningless in my view. It is a whole - not I follow this part to the exclusion of everything else.

Where is it written we must have a master to receive the free gift of salvation?

I already did in that passage. There are multiple others.
Hebrews 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We must work to earn the salvation that Jesus died for. His sacrifice was not enough?

Paul is quite the anomaly isn't he? So how come the Lord doesn't appear to His other persecutors? Do you believe He was foreordained to be an apostle? "15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Are you saying he was saved at that point? I don't recall Jesus saying He was forgiven. What did Paul do?
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

What did Paul do to deserve instant healing? When did he "repenti[], having a humble heart, forgiving others, getting baptized, being truly humble and repentant"?

It is quite clear that Jesus appeared to Paul because he was chosen of the Father. Why? for his righteousness before Jesus? certainly not - Paul hadn't even expressed any faith in Christ. You are inferring everyone receives this grace as a gift with nothing on their part, so yippee!! everyone is saved and can go home and not worry about it.

Eph 2:8 does not say "by grace Paul is saved through faith; and that not of himself: it is the gift of God:"

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

 

[Moodshadow]

I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit. As it was in ancient days, so it is in our day; and though the principles are taught publicly from this stand, still the people do not understand them; yet the law is precisely the same. There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or of turtle doves, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, p. 51

 

[RevelationTestament]

I agree.

That's good. It is hard to know from one poster to the next. Some call repentance a work.

So for you Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient we have to add all kinds of works to earn our salvation.

No, but there are certain prerequisites and postrequisites I believe. Repentance before but also continual repentance afterwards. I believe baptism is a necessary ordinance. We must be born again of the water and the spirit to enter the kingdom.

Salvation by works is Phartiseeism. They are the ones that demanded that everyone strictly follow the letter of the law.

Yes, but that was not salvation by doing works, but salvation by following a strict practice of sacrifices and feasts. They did not understand the true import of the law to treat everyone as they would treat themselves and to give the best of themselves. My point is that salvation by faith alone takes the letter of the law in one place against all the other law, so it is just a new type of phariseeism which says all I have to do is this and then I am saved - and that is to utter the "magic words:" "I believe in Jesus Christ." To believe in Jesus Christ in actuality means to follow Him and do His works. He asks merely of a pure intent to do His will - to repent, be baptized and come unto Him.

I agree that is the only thing we have to do.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. [Joe 2:32]

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [Joel 2:32]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not enough? There are works we must do to earn our salvation?

It is not a matter of earning our salvation, but one of being repentant and clean before Him - be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

What did Paul do to deserve instant healing? When did he "repenti[], having a humble heart, forgiving others, getting baptized, being truly humble and repentant"?

You are avoiding the question of what faith in Jesus he had for Jesus to appear to him in the first place which is none - he was antichrist and denied the Son. Do you believe he was saved at that point? Obviously not because he was smitten blind. But he did then follow instructions so demonstrated sufficient faith at that point to be healed.
You also completely ignored that he then immediately got baptized. Your other points have no merit as the scriptures do not say he repented either which you agree is a requirement.
But the experience did show him that he showed faith by following instructions and then received grace and the Holy Ghost, so I believe is foundational in his epistles that we are saved by grace. If he had not followed the instructions would he have been healed? If you answer no which I believe all must, then the literalist interpretation fails. But Paul certainly recognized that he was not performing any "work" by which he earned his salvation. He was following commandments which demonstrated faith. These are not good works of the individual but certain things the Lord asks all to do such as be baptized; therefore they cannot boast because all must repent and be baptized.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Once again...
I stated and explained at length that I agreed with the concept that Grace Alone was from the Devil, and I also responded to your question that I saw little difference between Grace Alone and Faith Alone as it was described in Kimball's book.

It was only after you stated that the OP said nothing about Faith Alone did I point out that the statement in the OP did not come from Kimball's book, but was a Critic's twisting of his words from his book to make it into into something it was not. The real quote specifically stated that he was talking about "Faith Alone"
Having been at this for over ten years I recognize the real source of every argument you guys copy off of AntiMormon sites better than you do.... I even listed the AntiMormon site that the OP originated from.
I am always three steps ahead of any argument you cut and paste here; just like I was able to know that you were trying to set up a BY quote in another thread, so I was able to steal your thunder.
I also recognize the different tactics of the Critics of our Church, and I know the best way to deal with each one. With some, it is best to let them keep posting their faulty, childish, and logically flawed arguments, as they do nothing to hurt the LDS and are loads of entertainment for all. With posters like you, it is best to just jump off you merry-go-round ride of never ending questions, otherwise you will find that you have wasted days of your life just to end up back where you started... And bored....

Please show me where I have posted anything from an AntiMormon site.

Thank you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

do you now see what I mean....
I already posted how you can know, but you couldn't help yourself from turning it into yet another question.
I even posted the real quote... Look how futile that was also. Two days from now we will still be right here... At the beginning, just as I predicted.

I apologize for missing the real quote. Would you kindly direct me to the post?

 

[Saul Hudson]

Well, since salvation by grace alone is a false doctrine, it did not come from God. So where else would a lie originate from?

 

[MormonFriend]

Grace is undeserved favour, that's the whole idea...

i missed your example, please list all the thing we need to do to accept the Grace of God..

It is not to accept, anyone can and would accept. It is a qualification to receive. And a list is not necessary, if even one requirement is made, the idea of Grace alone is moot because Christ declared that requirement.

I could offer you a free gift in the form of a Leer Jet, but I would require you to get a perfect score in flying lessons which I pay for. And you may repeat the course when you fail. Surely you can understand why I would make the requirements. You must be fully prepared to receive this gift, else you destroy the gift, yourself, and innocent bystanders if you take to the skies without understanding how to fly.

Eternal life in a glorified eternal body has the same principle of the need to control its powers. The gift is paid for, and ready for delivery, but we must be ready to receive it.


.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, since salvation by grace alone is a false doctrine, it did not come from God. So where else would a lie originate from?

And you determined it was a false doctrine how? Did God Himself speak to you and tell you?

 

[joneysd]

It is not to accept, anyone can and would accept. It is a qualification to receive. And a list is not necessary, if even one requirement is made, the idea of Grace alone is moot because Christ declared that requirement.

I could offer you a free gift in the form of a Leer Jet, but I would require you to get a perfect score in flying lessons which I pay for. And you may repeat the course when you fail. Surely you can understand why I would make the requirements. You must be fully prepared to receive this gift, else you destroy the gift, yourself, and innocent bystanders if you take to the skies without understanding how to fly.

Eternal life in a glorified eternal body has the same principle of the need to control its powers. The gift is paid for, and ready for delivery, but we must be ready to receive it.


.

so there is a list of qualifications for the free gift of Grace....

could you supply the list please...

 

[Theway]

so there is a list of qualifications for the free gift of Grace....

Nope...

could you supply the list please...

LOL...Critics are always so legalistic.

Do you want the one word list... The two commandment list... The medium expanded list.... Or the long seemingly endless list?

 

[joneysd]

Nope...

LOL...Critics are always so legalistic.

Do you want the one word list... The two commandment list... The medium expanded list.... Or the long seemingly endless list?

you guys need to get your heads together, one lds says their are requirements for God's Grace then some say there isn't.

not legalistic at all just want to know what you have to do to receive the free gift of Grace according to the lds.

 

[Der Alte]

It is not to accept, anyone can and would accept. It is a qualification to receive. And a list is not necessary, if even one requirement is made, the idea of Grace alone is moot because Christ declared that requirement.

I could offer you a free gift in the form of a Leer Jet, but I would require you to get a perfect score in flying lessons which I pay for. And you may repeat the course when you fail. Surely you can understand why I would make the requirements. You must be fully prepared to receive this gift, else you destroy the gift, yourself, and innocent bystanders if you take to the skies without understanding how to fly.

Eternal life in a glorified eternal body has the same principle of the need to control its powers. The gift is paid for, and ready for delivery, but we must be ready to receive it..

The fallacy with this analogy is you ain't God. God did not state that we had to get a perfect score in flying lessons or any other "requirement." Despite your analogy we cannot make ourselves ready to receive the gift God offers us. When we receive salvation we are not going to crash and burn injuring innocent people because nothing is dependent on us.

 

[Theway]

you guys need to get your heads together, one lds says their are requirements for God's Grace then some say there isn't.

No, I think the LDS are clear on this, you do not understand because it is Modern Christianity which is not on the same page. Your problem is that you do not try to judge us based on what most Christians believe about Grace, but only your minority heretical viewpoint of Faith Alone/Grace Alone.

not legalistic at all just want to know what you have to do to receive the free gift of Grace according to the lds.

Nothing... Grace has already been "given" to everyone in terms of physical death; and Grace to overcome spiritual death, has already been "extended" to everyone. Whether or not you take advantage of that Grace is up to you.

 

[joneysd]

No, I think the LDS are clear on this, you do not understand because it is Modern Christianity which is not on the same page. Your problem is that you do not try to judge us based on what most Christians believe about Grace, but only your minority heretical viewpoint of Faith Alone/Grace Alone.

Nothing... Grace has already been "given" to everyone in terms of physical death; and Grace to overcome spiritual death, has already been "extended" to everyone. Whether or not you take advantage of that Grace is up to you.

so you are saying you agree entirely with Grace alone for salvation and you disagree with the apostle in the op that says grace alone is from satan...

 

[Theway]

so you are saying you agree entirely with Grace alone for salvation and you disagree with the apostle in the op that says grace alone is from satan...

No... You keep equating "Grace" with the false doctrine of "Grace Alone" or "Faith Alone".
Like I said... You are defining Grace by your minority heretical viewpoint... I don't know why it's so hard for you to see that?

 

[joneysd]

No... You keep equating "Grace" with the false doctrine of "Grace Alone" or "Faith Alone".
Like I said... You are defining Grace by your minority heretical viewpoint... I don't know why it's so hard for you to see that?

heretical view point, saved by Grace so none shall boast, grace the free gift of God... i think that is biblical...

now Grace after everything you can do by yourself....

Grace after keeping all the commandments...

Grace after the temple marriage...

Grace after being given the holy spirit by the priesthood holder...

Grace after wearing your temple garments...

now that sounds heretical....

and that Grace alone is from satan....that sounds heretical...

 

[Theway]

heretical view point, saved by Grace so none shall boast, grace the free gift of God... i think that is biblical....

It is Biblical... Just as long as you aren't perverting it into meaning "Faith Alone"

now Grace after everything you can do by yourself....

Grace after keeping all the commandments...

Grace after the temple marriage...

Grace after being given the holy spirit by the priesthood holder...

Grace after wearing your temple garments...

now that sounds heretical....

I would agree... Luckily the LDS don't believe any of these things then.

and that Grace alone is from satan....that sounds heretical...

It is heretical if you try to redefine it to a modern unbiblical understanding of Faith Alone or Grace Alone which is what Kimball was saying if you had bothered to actually read the quote you thought you were referencing.