Discussion of Submission- Trial Thread

[LinkH]

He leaves us to be open to his transformation….iow, he loves us and trusts us enough to figure it out for ourselves, and to then yield to the Spirit.

Sometimes, and sometimes He leads people like the horse and mule. Sometimes he sends someone with a gentle word of correction. Sometimes, someone will correct quite strongly.

I've experienced people rebuking or correcting my thoughts in church, something others could not naturally know about. One was a prophecy or interpretation of tongue, right in church that told me what I'd just thought and offered a rather gentle correction. Once, when I was young, I entertained an unbelieving thought while in church, listening to a sermon. The preacher called me name and told me not to doubt the word of God. I talked to him about it afterward and didn't respond well, but later realized what I'd just been thinking and humbled myself and told him to share what the Lord moved him to say.

But a lot of times, there will be issues we have for years and years before suddenly we realize we need to change our thinking or our path or repent.

But I believe God can also rebuke or gently correct through leaders or even through the least of the saints who is not a trained theologian.

The older women should be teaching the younger women. And rebuke coming from a husband to a wife will likely be taken as nothing more than picking a fight for one’s own sake rather than for the benefit of the one you are “rebuking.”

That totally depends on the dynamic of the marriage. Several years back, if I brought up submission (which I rarely did) my wife would react in such a way that would shut that conversation down, especially since I'd go the nice guy route on it and would end up placating her. But after the Lord did that work on her heart, she repented. For a few weeks, from time to time, she'd stand around crying remembering something she'd done wrong in the marriage. And she was so sweet to me. In that case, that didn't come through some rebuke from me. That was after the Lord spoke to her those things I'd asked Him to in prayer.

After that, I could talk about submission with her. Unless she stressed out, I can just discuss it as a topic. I could talk about it at the dinner table. When she had a problem with submission, we couldn't talk about it.

I am not going to continue discussing this with you because it is an area of sensitivity and passion for me, and sure enough, I will break the RoC if I allow myself to be continually triggered by what I perceive as disrespectful discussion.

I didn't catch this paragraph at the end there before I responded for some reason. It's up to you. Feel no obligation to respond.

 

[LinkH]

sdmsanjose,

A while ago, I was looking up some examples of 'rebuke' in verses on BibleGateway. It's late. I'm not going to go back and find them and quote them again. Some rebukes were just questions that aren't that harsh. The donkey rebuked Balaam, but what he said wasn't all that harsh, was it?

Maybe the harsh tone for the word 'rebuke' is more of an English thing than what the word means in the Bible, which was written in Greek and Hebrew. I haven't done a word study. I probably should some day. It's interesting.

But I do see that the Old Testament says to rebuke love your neighbor, don't despise your neighbor in your heart, and to rebuke your neighbor frankly so that you don't share in his sin. It doesn't say the sin has to be against you. There are a lot of sins against others that could tempt us to despise our neighbors.

Also, Timothy was told to instruct and rebuke. Admonish is a softer sounding word, but Paul tells the Romans they are 'able also to admonish one another.'

If Jesus said to rebuke if the sin is against you, that doesn't mean its necessarily wrong to rebuke in other contexts.

Eli gave his sons what we might consider a kind of soft rebuke after they forced people to give them meat contrary to temple practices, those young men who fornicated with women at the temple. But God found fault with Eli. He hadn't been firm enough with those under his care. Paul rebuked churches that had sin in their midst. It would seem the place of a leader (including a 'head') to have to rebuke those under his care who sin in a way that effects the stewardship he's been entrusted with. But I don't believe it is limited to those who are in charge, either. Jacob once rebuked his father-in-law, asking him why he pursued him all night.

 

[mkgal1]

I just came across this article that I'd saved from a long time ago, and I thought it would maybe add something (hopefully positive) here.

Often it's easier to define something better based on what it's *not* (or clarifying false misconceptions)

4 Common Misconceptions About Egalitarianism

 

[mkgal1]

...and this one, here: Submission vs Equality in a Marriage

"... mutual submission -- not dominance by either partner -- is the key to genuine joy."
"True equality, understood as mutuality, is not measuring out tasks (who prepares the meals, who supervises homework, and so forth) or maintaining an orderly schedule."

"Mutuality is really about sharing power and exercising responsibility for a purpose larger than ourselves. How household duties are distributed should follow from understanding what it takes to build a life together, as well as the individual skills and interests you bring to your common life."

"Our experience as pastors shows us that genuine marital intimacy and true friendship are unlikely without mutuality. One spouse alone is not the keeper of love's flame. Both of you are co-creators of your relationship."

"Agreeing that you are equal might be easier than changing your behavior or accepting joint responsibility for your relationship. It takes hard work to really understand another's feelings or to practice shared decision making on important matters."

Archbishop Charles Chaput of Archdiocese of Denver wrote, "Ironically, this Scripture is sometimes misrepresented as encouraging a type of 'serfdom,' particularly for the wife. But this is clearly not Paul's message. He is calling husbands and wives to the true freedom of serving one another in imitation of Christ."

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to treat others as we wish to be treated. This is the minimum standard of behavior for all relationships. If we follow and promote this, there won't be much to fuss over. I know, it's too simple.

 

[mkgal1]

We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to treat others as we wish to be treated. This is the minimum standard of behavior for all relationships. If we follow and promote this, there won't be much to fuss over. I know, it's too simple.

I don't think that's too simple......I agree completely. If beliefs/behavior don't line up with those two concepts (loving our neighbor as ourselves and the "golden rule") then something is amiss. It was good enough for Christ to make it that simple (Mark 12:30-31; Matthew 22:36-40; Luke 10:27).

 

[Autumnleaf]

I met a plain looking demure woman the other day. Its an attractive quality. More attractive than the stunning looking loud woman I met at the same time.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I met a plain looking demure woman the other day. Its an attractive quality. More attractive than the stunning looking loud woman I met at the same time.

So... You think women should be submissive so you'll be attracted to them?

Interesting.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

While I don’t necessarily believe in “submission”, I do believe that a marriage should be complementary…according to the dictionary definition: “combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize the qualities of each other or another”.

In other words…what he’s good at doing, I’m not and what I’m good at doing, he’s not. This can look very different in different marriages. In my (now falling apart) marriage, I was the one who was good with mechanical things, budgeting, cooking and car repairs. He was good at the more “domestic” things. It worked. He did what I didn’t want/like to do, and I did what he didn’t want/like to do. I don’t believe in hard and fast gender roles…each person has a wealth of talents and should be able to use them to their fullest in their marriages, career choices, and life.
Also, the stereotype of the woman being the emotional one, the one less able to cope with stress is something that drives me batty. I’m the cold, logical one who rarely (if ever) gets stressed out. I can come up with plan A, plan B and plan C for any situation. Where other folks are freaking out, I’m the one pulling the lists out of my head and directing people to execute the plan. My (soon to be X) husband was the one who would freak out and fall apart.
So…be careful with painting people with a broad brush. I know there are those who would look at me and say that I must not be “feminine” since I have more “masculine” personality traits, and therefore am less of a Christian woman, BUT…that’s not for anyone to judge. Remember who gives the talents and abilities and take care not to squander those things.

 

[Hetta]

RPD, just fyi that what you give above as "complementary" is not what is meant by a complementarian marriage. What you show above is fairly typical of an egalitarian marriage, where people do what they're good at, regardless of gender. In an complementarian marriage, spouses carry out their "complementary" roles. Women were made to cook and clean by God. It says it right there in the Bible dontcha know. Nobody can find that scripture, but anyway ... and men were made strictly for manly tasks. So men can't help with babies, because they don't have boobs and ovaries, and women can't do mechanical work because they don't have penises (well, most of them.)

Of course, in reality, God made men and women with a huge variety of gifts. He didn't make all men mechanically inclined, nor all women domestically inclined.

I look at my kids sometimes and I wonder. Two of my boys who are dating couldn't be any more different nor their SO's be any more different. My boy who will marry next year (not actually a boy, he's 22) is irritatingly traditional and said last week that his fiancée was "raised right" because "she knows how to look after a man." I wanted to vomit. I can't even imagine where he got that from, because that is nothing he has been taught in our home. His fiancée didn't say anything, but I was wondering if she was seeing into the future where she will graduate college and begin her professional career (she is majoring in accounting) and whether he will still expect her to "look after" him then, when they are both working full time. And why does a grown man even want someone to look after him?

OTOH, my other boy who is in a serious dating relationship expects absolute equality with his SO. They both have a long period of schooling ahead and are majoring in the same subject. They bake and cook together in our home, and take great delight in whipping up concoctions for us all to try out. He would be insulted if his GF offered to "look after him."

Different strokes and all that.

I've never wanted to look after or be looked after by an adult as an adult myself.

 

[Hetta]

And yet, in this traditional, complementarian relationship, the fiancée is so not submissive, lol. She may be "brought up right to look after a man" or whatever, but she tells him where to go and what to do and how to do it and when. And that's apparently what he wants. They have been together for over four years and her controlling behavior has been pointed out to him, and he has admitted that she is controlling, but he prefers to stay in that relationship.

My other dating child in an egalitarian relationship absolutely hates to see his brother's relationship and how controlling the fiancée is, and deliberately chose a non-controlling girl after seeing how it worked out for his brother. I would say that, on average, his GF is probably verging on submissive behavior to him far more often than the fiancée in the traditional relationship.

It's interesting to see how these two relationships manifest. I cannot imagine how these marriages will work out!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

In an egalitarian relationship, when you cannot agree, what happens? And I mean after all the blustering about compromise is done. What if you want A and you won't budge, and he wants B, and he won't budge?

That is why I don't believe relationships can ever truly be egalitarian.

My husband has reminded me only once in our ten years together about submission, and it was warranted. I fully admit I was being selfish and petulant about something. I did not feel berated, or humiliated. I felt embarrassed because I was not doing what God had told me to do. The rebuke caused me to get back to my bible studies.

I agree that wifely submission doesn't give the guy license to be a dictator. A husband who acts like that is not fulfilling his Godly role as a husband. But I do believe that a wife who is not submitting is also not fulfilling her Godly role.

 

[ValleyGal]

For me, if there is something that I want that I won't budge on, I have to recognize my own motivation for wanting it so much that I won't budge. Rather than be motivated by what I want for my own selfish gain, I must rather consider what is in my husband's best interest, and stand solid on that rather than on what I want. That is where true submission comes from - from putting yourself and your own wants aside for what is best for your spouse...and this comes from that humble place inside of us that "places others above yourself" (Philippians 2:3). Imo, when both husband and wife obey this command, there is a guarantee that conflict management takes on a whole new meaning, and the idea of "compromise" loses its power. After all, there is no compromise when it comes to my husband's best interest, and he believes the same as me... therefore, we take up each other's cause rather than not budge on our own cause.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

For me, if there is something that I want that I won't budge on, I have to recognize my own motivation for wanting it so much that I won't budge. Rather than be motivated by what I want for my own selfish gain, I must rather consider what is in my husband's best interest, and stand solid on that rather than on what I want. That is where true submission comes from - from putting yourself and your own wants aside for what is best for your spouse...and this comes from that humble place inside of us that "places others above yourself" (Philippians 2:3). Imo, when both husband and wife obey this command, there is a guarantee that conflict management takes on a whole new meaning, and the idea of "compromise" loses its power. After all, there is no compromise when it comes to my husband's best interest, and he believes the same as me... therefore, we take up each other's cause rather than not budge on our own cause.

I forget, ValleyGirl, do you describe your relationship as egalitarian? And since intent can't be read on the internet, this isn't a snarky question! I promise!

 

[RedPonyDriver]

In an egalitarian relationship, when you cannot agree, what happens? And I mean after all the blustering about compromise is done. What if you want A and you won't budge, and he wants B, and he won't budge?

That is why I don't believe relationships can ever truly be egalitarian.

My husband has reminded me only once in our ten years together about submission, and it was warranted. I fully admit I was being selfish and petulant about something. I did not feel berated, or humiliated. I felt embarrassed because I was not doing what God had told me to do. The rebuke caused me to get back to my bible studies.

I agree that wifely submission doesn't give the guy license to be a dictator. A husband who acts like that is not fulfilling his Godly role as a husband. But I do believe that a wife who is not submitting is also not fulfilling her Godly role.

There are times when you agree to disagree. He has his POV and she has hers. There are things I won't back down on and that's that. Considering I was the breadwinner in my marriage...it was pretty much what I said goes. He chose to "hoard" his disability checks and leave me strapped. I took care of that one...I stopped paying for things that were important to him. You want cable TV, pay the bill. I was perfectly happy with Netflix and DVDs. You want gas in your truck...pay for it. You want your medications refilled...guess who's paying for it? You want your cell phone? Well...cough up the payment. Now, I have my budget, I can comfortably live within my means, and I don't have to worry about anything.

I don't see me ever being a "submissive" wife. Nope...not happening. I am far too independent to ever THINK about relying on anyone for anything. If I don't have the $, I don't buy it. I have no debt, no credit cards and I rather like it that way. I have finally managed to build up my savings again (although that's going to get blown through when I get my car out of the shop), and I don't need anyone to pay my bills, make decisions for me, or anything else. I'm good with that.

He chose to do certain things that have currently caused this separation. Its not my problem...it's HIS. He's 300+ miles away and because of his arrogance, rudeness and disrespect, he's not living with me. If he wants to come back, and I think he's changed enough for me to want to give it another try, it will probably end up being on my terms because I will not allow myself to be browbeaten or manipulated into anything anymore.

 

[ValleyGal]

PW, yes, I do think of us as egalitarian. We do not have one spouse whose decision is the "final" one, and we submit to each other. Whichever one of us has a "final say" in a given situation, is only because it is bestowed by the other's submission.

 

[Hetta]

In an egalitarian relationship, when you cannot agree, what happens? And I mean after all the blustering about compromise is done. What if you want A and you won't budge, and he wants B, and he won't budge?

Why use the word "blustering" here as a negative impression of how egalitarian marriages work? We quietly compromise - no blustering required.

My husband has reminded me only once in our ten years together about submission, and it was warranted. I fully admit I was being selfish and petulant about something. I did not feel berated, or humiliated. I felt embarrassed because I was not doing what God had told me to do. The rebuke caused me to get back to my bible studies.

Why not just tell you that you're being selfish rather than 'unsubmissive'. Everyone gets selfish. My husband also gets selfish. We both give each other reminders because, hey, we're both human and faulty. He has no god-like perfection.

I agree that wifely submission doesn't give the guy license to be a dictator. A husband who acts like that is not fulfilling his Godly role as a husband. But I do believe that a wife who is not submitting is also not fulfilling her Godly role.

So you speak for God, eh. Interesting. I've fulfilled a Godly role for a long time now, and you don't get to say otherwise.

 

[mkgal1]

Love Busters: Protecting Your Marriage from Habits That Destroy Romantic Love - Willard F. Jr. Harley - Google Books


I'm on my phone at the moment so I can't quote, but this book describes the concept (and process) of enthusiastic mutual agreement (win/win solutions). The link above is directly to that description in the book. It's possible. ...its rewarding....and it takes understanding each other's perspectives. Isn't that a huge part of an intimate relationship--knowing one another?

 

[HannahT]

In an egalitarian relationship, when you cannot agree, what happens? And I mean after all the blustering about compromise is done. What if you want A and you won't budge, and he wants B, and he won't budge?

That is why I don't believe relationships can ever truly be egalitarian.

That type of thing can happen in any type of relationship.

Most preachers I know would ask the couple to go, and pray about the circumstance. Allow the Holy Spirit to move you. That type of thing would be common in an egalitarian marriage - just as a comp marriage that didn't have the dictator factor.

We normally put things off, until we can come to an agreement. I'm speaking from a 'big things' prospective. It's respectful to both parties that way. Majority of the time - being that we are humans first and foremost - making decisions from a blustering moment isn't wise. It wouldn't matter - or change the unwise factor - in the true sense whom had the last biblical word either.

Most mature couples can come together later in a more calm fashion, and come to a decision. Immaturity for the most part is the only reason they can't. lol doubt that is a egal factor, but more of a human one.

I have been married for a long time, and the 'last word' issue has never been needed the entire time. Out of respect for me he would never pull it either, because he knows I would find it disrespectful. There are other ways to go about that type of thing, and they work too.

I think the problem is the way people view or define submission. Both parties know its in the bible, and realize it is good. Problem I see is when anyone decides they have the right way of doing marriage, and feel the need to tell others they aren't doing right if they aren't doing it like they are. Both sides of this debate do that, and what boggles my mind is they can take a perfectly good and blessed relationship - and poo poo it all due to their views.

I have never defined myself as a feminist, and yet some circles would flame me as one (the more radical the better) to make their point that our marriage isn't a good one. They don't move me that way, and I generally blow them off as kooks. lol and they act surprised! Talk about a disconnect!

My husband has never needed to feel his headship - nor my full submission - to feel his maleness. There have been times in which he has called me on acting ugly - just as I have called him out on that. It happens to the best of us.

Personally, if the relationship is working for the parties involved in the marriage? I say KUDO'S for them, and I pray it stays that way. I personally don't care if they label themselves egal or comp if the relationship is flourishing.

The big thing to me is that he knows I love and respect him. If he feels that? The rest is just gravy.

 

[Hetta]

That type of thing can happen in any type of relationship.

Most preachers I know would ask the couple to go, and pray about the circumstance. Allow the Holy Spirit to move you. That type of thing would be common in an egalitarian marriage - just as a comp marriage that didn't have the dictator factor.

We normally put things off, until we can come to an agreement. I'm speaking from a 'big things' prospective. It's respectful to both parties that way. Majority of the time - being that we are humans first and foremost - making decisions from a blustering moment isn't wise. It wouldn't matter - or change the unwise factor - in the true sense whom had the last biblical word either.

Most mature couples can come together later in a more calm fashion, and come to a decision. Immaturity for the most part is the only reason they can't. lol doubt that is a egal factor, but more of a human one.

I have been married for a long time, and the 'last word' issue has never been needed the entire time. Out of respect for me he would never pull it either, because he knows I would find it disrespectful. There are other ways to go about that type of thing, and they work too.

I think the problem is the way people view or define submission. Both parties know its in the bible, and realize it is good. Problem I see is when anyone decides they have the right way of doing marriage, and feel the need to tell others they aren't doing right if they aren't doing it like they are. Both sides of this debate do that, and what boggles my mind is they can take a perfectly good and blessed relationship - and poo poo it all due to their views.

I have never defined myself as a feminist, and yet some circles would flame me as one (the more radical the better) to make their point that our marriage isn't a good one. They don't move me that way, and I generally blow them off as kooks. lol and they act surprised! Talk about a disconnect!

My husband has never needed to feel his headship - nor my full submission - to feel his maleness. There have been times in which he has called me on acting ugly - just as I have called him out on that. It happens to the best of us.

Personally, if the relationship is working for the parties involved in the marriage? I say KUDO'S for them, and I pray it stays that way. I personally don't care if they label themselves egal or comp if the relationship is flourishing.

The big thing to me is that he knows I love and respect him. If he feels that? The rest is just gravy.

Great post Hannah.