Is the Bible reliable?

[MoreCoffee]

Just read what Genesis chapter one says. It is no history. It isn't even vaguely like history.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
And God said,

"Let there be light"​

; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."​

And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

And God said,

"Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear."​

And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. And God said,

"Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth."​

And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

And God said,

"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth."​

And it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens."​

So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying,

"Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."​

And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds."​

And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."​

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them, and God said to them,

"Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."​

And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."​

And it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.​

(Genesis 1:1-31 RSV)

No history looks even vaguely like the litany of creation recorded above. It's clearly poetic and clearly aimed at the pagan gods of the cultures surrounding the Israelites. Even in early Christianity the way Christians read Genesis one was not as a history and not as an account of God's method of forming material creation.

Until you notice that it has all the features of historical narrative. A historic account with a timeline, units of time fully defined, events, sequence, start, middle, end a complete contiguous storyline.

And the audience - of freed slaves from Egypt would have had no prior-bias to argue against the 7 day timeline given in the historic account.
...
Pure history in every respect - an accurate historic account with days and events laid out in sequence.

Placing "not" in the text to argue against it being a historic account is not something Moses' readers were inclined to do.

in Christ,

Bob

Genesis chapter one is included in my post, it is self evident that it is poetry; specifically, a litany of creation arranged to denigrate the pagan deities worshipped by the pagan nations known to ancient Israelites, deities such as the sun and the moon and "the hosts of heaven" who are relegated to the fourth day in Genesis chapter one and the animals who are relegated to fifth and sixth days.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Why are you so worried about "Darwinism"? I don't give two hoots about it when it comes to the Bible. I don't read Genesis one way or another on the basis of some kind of Darwinism.



You are so scared of "Darwinism" you want to bring it into discussions where it has no business.

The OP seems to be talking about Darwinism, im not sure why you say it has no business in this discussion. I join Bob's disapproval of Darwinism. Darwinism seems to steal Gods Glory, it doesn't give God glory because it denies creationism, and it denies Gods holy scriptures which say that God created all things.



Darwin quotes-


“I had gradually come by this time, [i.e. 1836 to 1839] to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos or the beliefs of any barbarian.”

Charles Darwin


“I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.”

Charles Darwin

 

[Restoresmysoul]

“I had gradually come by this time, [i.e. 1836 to 1839] to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos or the beliefs of any barbarian.”
Charles Darwin


“I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.”
Charles Darwin

As far as Darwin goes-


2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[c]
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”[d]

7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

I had gradually come by this time, [i.e. 1836 to 1839] to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos or the beliefs of any barbarian.”
Charles Darwin


“I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.”
Charles Darwin

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The OP seems to be talking about Darwinism, im not sure why you say it has no business in this discussion. I join Bob's disapproval of Darwinism. Darwinism seems to steal Gods Glory, it doesn't give God glory because it denies creationism, and it denies Gods holy scriptures which say that God created all things.



Darwin quotes-


“I had gradually come by this time, [i.e. 1836 to 1839] to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos or the beliefs of any barbarian.”

Charles Darwin


“I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.”

Charles Darwin

Those are Darwin's private opinions. They do no represent conclusions of the modern evolutionary synthesis.

And in any case, just because something had a natural cause does not mean it is not God's doing. God upholds the universe at all times. All events in time and space are God's creation. Right now my dog and cat are chasing each other around my apartment. God gets the glory for that even though they're doing it quite on their own.

Your God is too small.

 

[listed]

I think that a pope was dragged into this thread as some kind of warning against the Catholic faith based on the theory that if a pope does not agree with the doctrine of "reliability" expressed in the original post then the Catholic faith is all wrong and definitely misleading.

I think it was an attack to demean, tear down, destroy another while trying to build themselves up. It only proves them to be jerks (being polite here).

 

[MoreCoffee]

The OP seems to be talking about Darwinism, im not sure why you say it has no business in this discussion. I join Bob's disapproval of Darwinism. Darwinism seems to steal Gods Glory, it doesn't give God glory because it denies creationism, and it denies Gods holy scriptures which say that God created all things.

Darwin quotes-

“I had gradually come by this time, [i.e. 1836 to 1839] to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos or the beliefs of any barbarian.”

Charles Darwin​

“I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.”

Charles Darwin​

Do you trust the old testament as a reliable source of accurate scientific information when it comes to passages like Genesis chapter one?

What do you think of passages such as this?

If a man is discovered having relations with a woman who is married to another, both the man and the woman with whom he has had relations shall die. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out to the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbour's wife. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. If, however, it is in the open fields that a man comes upon such a betrothed maiden, seizes her and has relations with her, the man alone shall die. You shall do nothing to the maiden, since she is not guilty of a capital offence. This case is like that of a man who rises up against his neighbour and murders him: it was in the open fields that he came upon her, and though the betrothed maiden may have cried out for help, there was no one to come to her aid. If a man comes upon a maiden that is not betrothed, takes her and has relations with her, and their deed is discovered, the man who had relations with her shall pay the girl's father fifty silver shekels and take her as his wife, because he has deflowered her. Moreover, he may not divorce her as long as he lives. ​

(Deuteronomy 22:22-29 NAB)​

Would you want a law like that to apply to your society, your family, your daughter? Is the above passage a "reliable" depiction of God's justice and goodness?

 

[listed]

Talking about the poster instead of the topic is against rules too

I responded to a post of another whom I did not address in my post and thus did not talk about the poster.

OTH I see you are back as another new poster again. Want to talk about the rules? I would kindly appreciate it if you did not respond to any of my post either by quote or through a 3rd party.

 

[Tzaousios]

Mr. Ryan, why did you edit out from the quotes what I said about interpretation?

Bumped for Bob Ryan.

 

[Gunny]

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Amen and amen.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who being saved it is the power of God".

I Corinthians 1:18
NIV


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".

John 1:1-3
KJV

 

[Restoresmysoul]

I think it was an attack to demean, tear down, destroy another while trying to build themselves up. It only proves them to be jerks (being polite here).

You sure seem to forget those rules pretty fast.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

I responded to a post of another whom I did not address in my post and thus did not talk about the poster.

OTH I see you are back as another new poster again. Want to talk about the rules? I would kindly appreciate it if you did not respond to any of my post either by quote or through a 3rd party.

Ok, but i just wanted you to know that i have permission from the forum staff to have this account. Im legal.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Amen and amen.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who being saved it is the power of God".

I Corinthians 1:18
NIV


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".

John 1:1-3
KJV

Amen.

 

[BobRyan]

Such statements made by them are indirect ways to avoid the rules and flame saying you are not a Christian. Such is against the rules. Over time I am sure this has come to the attention of decision makers regulating the forum. Why it continues to happen is no mystery to me.

j

details of the topic ignored...

false accusations about motives to "avoid rules" and "flame" and accusing so-and-so of not being Christian ... is the focus of that post.

Talking about the poster instead of the topic is against rules too

A key point to remember.

I responded to a post of another whom I did not address in my post and thus did not talk about the poster.

OTH I see you are back as another new poster again. Want to talk about the rules? I would kindly appreciate it if you did not respond to any of my post either by quote or through a 3rd party.

Another "not on the subject at all" post ignoring the details of the discussion?

Really? again??

 

[SAAN]

What people need to realize is the bible is a SUM of history, not the complete history of those times. People will say well I didnt see Jesus eat meat except lamb, so I guess he didnt eat red meat, just based off of a few verses.

Most atheists are former Christians since they can quote scriptures so well, so many are just in denial.

 

[BobRyan]

Genesis chapter one is included in my post, it is self evident that it is poetry; specifically, a litany of creation arranged to denigrate the pagan deities worshipped by the pagan nations known to ancient Israelites, deities such as the sun and the moon and "the hosts of heaven" who are relegated to the fourth day in Genesis chapter one and the animals who are relegated to fifth and sixth days.

No doubt Genesis 1-2:3 destroys paganism. But it is not a poem.

I could easily construct a poem to accurately describe how to change the wiper blades on my car... it does turn the car or my wiper blades into myth, fiction, symbols.

I have nothing against poems. Genesis 1 is historic narrative.

It is just a fact of literature.

As for the "historic account" -- you left part of this out...

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.



Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His workwhich He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens




Pure history --

Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His workwhich He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens

 

[BobRyan]

Mr. Ryan, why did you edit out from the quotes what I said about interpretation?

Quote something if you think anything is changed. If you can show that in my response something was left out that changes the response to your post or that explains something -- show it.

I don't mind talking about actual details.

Can't edit that post - since the CF bugs don't allow it on that post - but I can add your post here...

I do not see what purpose these kinds of statements serve. If they are aimed at other Christians, that does not make sense since the Christians in this discussion accept the Bible as an inspired text. Thus, it becomes a matter of interpretation, not merely accepting or rejecting what the Bible plainly says.

Looking at the statement from the standpoint of logic, it is rather circular in nature because it re-states the premise as true based upon evidence found in the same source.

it does not change the response to your post - the details in my response remain accurate.

=============recall --

And Moses further reminds us of the accuracy of the historic account in Gen 1:2--2:3 by this statement found in legal code - summarizing that historic account.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

So then the timeline - the "unit of time" as they would have understood and accepted it is obvious to the reader

"six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made"

Originally Posted by Tzaousios

I do not see what purpose these kinds of statements serve. If they are aimed at other Christians, that does not make sense since the Christians in this discussion accept the Bible as an inspired text.​

​

The purpose is to show what details the text itself present to the reader.

Looking at the statement from the standpoint of logic, it is rather circular in nature because it re-states the premise as true based upon evidence found in the same source.​

​

It is not true that it is circular logic to argue the the text has a 7 day timeline because the text itself uses that term and that unit of time as in "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made".

Rather the claim is proven -- because the claim is about the details IN the text - so that showing those details to be IN the text just as claimed - proves the assertion.

Just stating the obvious in this case.
===================================== the point remains

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Until you read Genesis 1:2-2:3 where you find a true historic narrative written to the newly freed slaved from Egypt.

Moses was not a Darwinist, not an evolutionist and neither where the freed slaves from Egypt.

His 7 day timeline was not to be doubted by them due to some supposed pre-bias-for-evolutionism.

Exegesis dictates that the meaning conveyed by Moses to his readers is what the text stated - nothing less.

The text itself does not argue against the 7 day timeline in the text.

The only arguments against it that have become popular within Christianity today - only arise after the publication of the 1844 manuscript by Darwin. Thus it is only an agenda external to the text itself that tries to bend/edit/wrench it away from its own stated timeline.

That timeline is etched into legal code in Ex 20:8-11 "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made".

There are many "your posts are evil" posts provide in response to the OP - and those sorts of posts are simply avoiding the details of the discussion in most cases.

Why are you so worried about "Darwinism"? I don't give two hoots about it when it comes to the Bible. I don't read Genesis one way or another on the basis of some kind of Darwinism.

Are we to believe it is "just coincidence" that after Darwins 1844 manuscript it started to become popular to butcher the Genesis 1 text to try and get 7 days to morph into "undefined periods of ages of time" in service to Darwinian evolutionism? And all that no matter that God said the opposite in the form of "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made" Ex 20:11 in legal code pointed at those same 7 days?

(A point in legal code that totally destroys the efforts to darwinize Gen 1:2-2:3)

The text doesn't support the way you want to read it,

Ambigous.

Did you mean to say "the text does not support 7 days as the creation week and God does not summarize it in 7 days of our own work week as in -- six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made"???

You are so scared of "Darwinism"

Really?? - that is the excuse for avoiding the details of the discussion???

TRy and have some faith. God isn't out to trick you, or anybody else.

Here we can agree "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord Made" is not some sort of smoke-and-mirrors for "in a vast undefined period of time God made-- so you should work for vast undefined periods of time - then rest".

I think we all see that point.

His revelation in Scripture and nature are a unity. If we are wrong about nature, it will become clear. If we are wrong about Christianity, that will become clear too. Either way, we seek truth as best we can.

In the days of Christ - Jewish leaders assumed "nothing can go wrong -- even if we are wrong about something". and Mark 7:6-13 Christ totally debunked that entire line of argument.

It should not be surprising that at times we cannot see clearly how precisly the metaphysical is related to the physical or natural world.

How nice then - that there is nothing metaphorical in Genesis 1 and nothing metaphysical about "evening and morning" and counting off days.

But a just God will fault us for dishonest judgements and projects in order to justify our own ideas about Him, or in service of our own fears.

Now we have another point of complete agreement.



And he will judge us if our efforts at this kind of self-will turn others away from Him, as we know this kind of darwinization of the text can do (proof is the testimony of Darwin himself).

So again - stating the glaringly obvious. So obvious even Darwin noticed it.

Your fear that accepting the Bible as it reads leads to atheism is not as solid a basis for fear as you may have at first imagined.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The OP seems to be talking about Darwinism, im not sure why you say it has no business in this discussion. I join Bob's disapproval of Darwinism. Darwinism seems to steal Gods Glory, it doesn't give God glory because it denies creationism, and it denies Gods holy scriptures which say that God created all things.



Darwin quotes-


“I had gradually come by this time, [i.e. 1836 to 1839] to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos or the beliefs of any barbarian.”

Charles Darwin


“I am sorry to have to inform you that I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.”

Charles Darwin

Indeed - Darwin noticed the problem ... in more recent times Dawkins, Provine, Meyers all are on record as noticing that same problem.

And it is not "coincidence" that it is only AFTER the 1844 manuscript by Darwin is complete that you find popular attempts inside Christianity to darwinize Genesis 1 - specifically attacking the 7 day timeline given in that historic narrative - and summarize in the form "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made.." Ex 20:11

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Indeed - Darwin noticed the problem ... in more recent times Dawkins, Provine, Meyers all are on record as noticing that same problem.

And it is not "coincidence" that it is only AFTER the 1844 manuscript by Darwin is complete that you find popular attempts inside Christianity to darwinize Genesis 1 - specifically attacking the 7 day timeline given in that historic narrative - and summarize in the form "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made.." Ex 20:11

in Christ,

Bob

I dont follow the words of most theologians so i sure wont follow darwin. I just follow the scriptures and that seems good enough, more than enough in fact, the scriptures are a lifetime study. I do listen to others opinions and a commentary once in awhile, but for the most part the scriptures seem more than sufficient to teach me about history of creation, and other things God has done. And its sufficient to teach me about all things which pertain to life and godliness that are worth knowing. The bible cant teach me how to be a carpenter, gardener or to play the guitar, and those are other things i enjoy, but the scriptures are first place in all my thinking and doing.

Amen, praise the Lord for His Word.