Trinity or Monotheism

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON



Thread cleaned and moved from Philosophy. Please be sure to read the Statement of Purpose for this forum before posting.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[ViaCrucis]

can somebody please explain to me how Trinity and monotheism are consistent,
is it three or one? choose because three is not one.

"Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one"
Deuteronomy 6:4

Three and One.

Monotheism, because there is only one God.

Trinity, because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God.

The Father is the one and only God. And because the Son is homoousios with the Father, the Son is likewise the one and only God. Same with the Holy Spirit.

That's Trinitarianism. And it is strict Monotheism. God is not divided into parts, nor does God have multiple facets or faces. There is only one God.

There are two principle ways Christians have spoken about the Trinity, one Western and one Eastern (the Western referring to Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, the Eastern referring to Eastern Orthodoxy).

The Western way has been to approach the subject ontologically and philosophically, to speak of the unity of the Essence--that the Divine Essence is categorically one; and this Oneness, this Essence, this Substance is shared co-equally between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And thus the Godhead of the Father is the same Godhead of the Son, and likewise of the Spirit--One God, One Divinity, One Deity.

The Eastern way has been to approach the subject by speaking of the monarchy of the Father, that the Father is the one and true God; and then to speak of the generation of the Son from the Father, and the procession of the Spirit from the Father. Because the Son is eternally generated from the Father, the Son is that which the Father is, God, the one and only God. And because the Spirit is eternally proceeding from the Father, the Spirit is that which the Father is, God, the one and only God.

These are two distinct approaches used historically by Western and Eastern theologians respectively. But both maintain the absolute unity of the Godhead, God's absolute and unequivocal Oneness. An absolute and emphatic Monotheism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Albion]

you're right I have, but I cannot imagine something like it being infinite eternal and indivisible.
Perhaps you've encountered something like that?

I haven't encountered anything that's like God, no. But for you to keep saying 'one can't be three' makes no sense to me, especially when you admit that you've encountered something like that in other aspects of life. And if you are going to fall back on God being unknowable--which is a sensible way of thinking of this subject, I agree--you surely ought to be able to appreciate the Christian concept that what we know of God is thanks to the revelation he's given us about himself (the Bible). That revelation of course describes God as One god but in three.

What do you mean? My deepest apology for any of the kind.

Thanks for saying that, but what I described does seem to have been done to us several times in this thread--paraphrasing what we've written, and paraphrasing it into something that makes what we said seem silly.

If you disagree with us, I'd much prefer that you simply ask a follow-up question saying, "that doesn't seem correct because...." without the "so you mean. ____" style that we often run into on discussion boards with people who mainly want to spar.

 

[Lukaris]

We believe God revealed Himself as a Trinity although it took us centuries to understand. As early as Genesis:

Genesis 1:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[a] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”


Genesis 3:22 New King James Version (NKJV)

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—



Other scattered passages reveal the Trinity (as we believe) such as in Isaiah:
Isaiah 48:16 New King James Version (NKJV)

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”


The "Lord God" is the Father, the "Me" is the Son of God, "His Spirit" is the Holy Spirit; all 3, one God, coexistent & coeternal. We see this summed up in the New Testament where St. Paul says,

Ephesians 2:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Again, we see the Son of God (the Lord Jesus Christ) as "Him", the "one Spirit" as the Holy Spirit & the "Father" as God the Father of course.

 

[Tree of Life]

God loves us, but He does not need love, He is not incomplete because of that and in fact He created the concept of love, so how can He be subject to a concept He Himself created?

So in eternity past, before creation, there was no love? God loved nothing and was loved by no one?

even after three pages of this thread I don't understand the words "three persons one god" without saying that they are separate beings, if there are out there three thinking minds then one must be able to think and act independent of the others? if Jesus saves, that means the others would destroy
without him saving, isn't that polytheism?

It's similar to saying that there's only one humanity, but there are many persons in the one humanity. Humanity was made in the image of God. "In his image he created them."

Because of sin humanity is full of disagreement. But the Trinity lives in perfect communion, agreement, and fellowship. Sending the Son to die for the sins of humanity was the Father's idea. The Father planned it. The Son accomplished it. Jesus himself said that he was sent by the Father. The Holy Spirit now applies the work of salvation to our lives and personal experiences.

 

[Wololo]

Oh look this is one of the few things that makes me an unorthodox Christian. I feel that "Orthodox" Christians believe in 3 Gods. I'll probably get in trouble for saying that. The 3 'persons' are in fact 3 'manifestations' of a singular God that can exist at the same time while still retaining their inherent oneness. It's essentially Modalism. If I want to discuss that I probably have to move a couple forums over.

 

[Sketcher]

even after three pages of this thread I don't understand the words "three persons one god" without saying that they are separate beings, if there are out there three thinking minds then one must be able to think and act independent of the others? if Jesus saves, that means the others would destroy
without him saving, isn't that polytheism?

Do you believe Jacob wrestled with God? Was it the Shekinah that he wrestled with?

 

[Hakan101]

God loves us, but He does not need love, He is not incomplete because of that and in fact He created the concept of love, so how can He be subject to a concept He Himself created?

even after three pages of this thread I don't understand the words "three persons one god" without saying that they are separate beings, if there are out there three thinking minds then one must be able to think and act independent of the others? if Jesus saves, that means the others would destroy
without him saving, isn't that polytheism?

I admit I don't really know how to explain this sufficiently because I don't even fully understand the concept myself. There is three aspects to God that make a holy trinity, but there is only one God. When you say "The Lord" you are referring to all three aspects, Father Son and Holy Spirit. They work in unity with each other. Jesus willingly offered his life to reconcile us to the Father. And when he resurrected, he sent us the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort us. But they are not separate Gods that you would worship separately, if that makes sense.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I try to avoid using the word "person" and "persons" because it is generally confusing to many modern hearers.

The historical reason for saying that there are "three persons" is due to the translation of the Greek word hypostasis to the Latin word persona. So the Greek theologians spoke of "three hypostases" and in turn Latin theologians spoke of "three personae". This was met with some hostility from the Greek-speaking East because the Latin "persona" was often used to render the Greek prosopon, and often referred to the masks worn by actors in Greek theater. Which seemed to suggest that the Latins were saying that God wore "three masks" or had "three faces". Which, of course, isn't what they were saying, but it required a lot of explanatory power to affirm that when the Latin West said "persona" they meant the same thing that the Greek East did when they said "hypostasis".

A perhaps more literal translation of hypostasis into Latin would have been subsistentia, which in English is subsistence. It refers to an underlying reality of a thing. And it effectively is talking about the Father's "Father-ness", the Son's "Son-ness", and the Holy Spirit's "Holy Spirit-ness".

We are not talking about "persons" as fully separate, individual beings as is typical of the word; nor are we suggesting that God wears different "masks". We are saying that there is a fundamental Three-ness that is somewhat fundamentally mysterious to us; that there really is this "Father", and there really is this "Son", and there really is this "Holy Spirit", and that "they" are fundamentally the same "what", the same Being, and yet there is an actual distinction, an actual inter-relatedness between the Three. The Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father, and this is not a selfish love, but a outwardly moving love from One to Another.

This inter-relatedness means both absolute Oneness and actual Threeness; without conflict or contradiction. God is not "three in one", instead we speak of the Three-and-One. When speaking about numerical being, we can only speak of Oneness, there is only one God. When speaking of hypostatic inter-relatedness we speak of Threeness, there is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. These are not conflicting, contradictory statements, but complimentary statements.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wololo]

I try to avoid using the word "person" and "persons" because it is generally confusing to many modern hearers.

The historical reason for saying that there are "three persons" is due to the translation of the Greek word hypostasis to the Latin word persona. So the Greek theologians spoke of "three hypostases" and in turn Latin theologians spoke of "three personae". This was met with some hostility from the Greek-speaking East because the Latin "persona" was often used to render the Greek prosopon, and often referred to the masks worn by actors in Greek theater. Which seemed to suggest that the Latins were saying that God wore "three masks" or had "three faces". Which, of course, isn't what they were saying, but it required a lot of explanatory power to affirm that when the Latin West said "persona" they meant the same thing that the Greek East did when they said "hypostasis".

A perhaps more literal translation of hypostasis into Latin would have been subsistentia, which in English is subsistence. It refers to an underlying reality of a thing. And it effectively is talking about the Father's "Father-ness", the Son's "Son-ness", and the Holy Spirit's "Holy Spirit-ness".

We are not talking about "persons" as fully separate, individual beings as is typical of the word; nor are we suggesting that God wears different "masks". We are saying that there is a fundamental Three-ness that is somewhat fundamentally mysterious to us; that there really is this "Father", and there really is this "Son", and there really is this "Holy Spirit", and that "they" are fundamentally the same "what", the same Being, and yet there is an actual distinction, an actual inter-relatedness between the Three. The Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father, and this is not a selfish love, but a outwardly moving love from One to Another.

This inter-relatedness means both absolute Oneness and actual Threeness; without conflict or contradiction. God is not "three in one", instead we speak of the Three-and-One. When speaking about numerical being, we can only speak of Oneness, there is only one God. When speaking of hypostatic inter-relatedness we speak of Threeness, there is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. These are not conflicting, contradictory statements, but complimentary statements.

-CryptoLutheran

Is that not Modalism though? I disagree with the innate threeness as in there only being three. If I want to call God "Creator" and add it to the group, I don't see the problem with that. God is known by many names and can be many things.
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 ESV)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is that not Modalism though? I disagree with the innate threeness as in there only being three. If I want to call God "Creator" and add it to the group, I don't see the problem with that. God is known by many names and can be many things.
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 ESV)

What I presented was Trinitarianism.

Modalism would insist that the divine "personae" are masks, faces that God wears. That Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct hypostases, but merely outward expressions, masks, faces, modes, or manifestations.

"Father" is not a name or attribute of God. Neither is "Son" or "Holy Spirit". "Father" designates the Father, "Son" designates the Son. There is actual Father, there is actual Son, there is actual Holy Spirit. There is an actual relationship between the Three, amidst the Three; and in that Threeness, Oneness. Jesus is God because He is the Son, the only-begotten, eternally begotten, having no beginning. Son of the Father from all eternity, and thus That which the Father is, namely the one and only God; the Son is the one and only God because the Father is the one and only God, and likewise the Spirit is the one and only God because the Father [and Son] from Whom He proceeds is the one and only God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wololo]

most of the philosophers who believed in God believed in Its absolute unity because it is impossible for more than one being to be infinite, because if there are two there must be a "boundary" between them
which makes them finite and therefore not God

when was Trinity revealed? in the bible Jesus is called the son of God but not God, maybe he was just like Moses or as Islam views Mohammad?

there are Christians who believe in absolute unity such as the Arians, is anything in the new testament against it?

There a lot of Christians that believe that God is One and it is very easily justified from scripture. For me the three manifestations of God are fine, but I don't limit myself to those three. It's considered heresy by mainstream Christians though. Never understood why.

 

[Lukaris]

As I have posted, God says, "Us" in Genesis. Daniel saw the vision of the Ancient of Days & the Son of man (in Daniel 7). In Psalm 2:7, the Father declares the Son. In John 15:26, Jesus Christ testifies to the Trinity:

John 15:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Coming Rejection
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.


Notice that every reference of God pertains to personal terms. God, the Father, the Son is testifying in His humanity that He took on in His divinity (John 1:14) & refers to the Holy Spirit as "He." In John 1:18, we are told that no one has seen God at any time but the Father Has declared Him; these are all personal terms. In John 14:9, the Lord says that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. In Acts 7:51, St. Stephen (before being stoned) preaches that "stiff necked" people always resist the Holy Spirit.

We need to take note not to resist what God has declared Himself to be.

 

[Viren]

According to the Bible God is love. Love can't exist when only one entity is present. Therefore, before creation was God not love?

 

[ViaCrucis]

There a lot of Christians that believe that God is One and it is very easily justified from scripture. For me the three manifestations of God are fine, but I don't limit myself to those three. It's considered heresy by mainstream Christians though. Never understood why.

Because Trinitarianism is orthodox. Anything else is not orthodox.

For the same reason that it is unorthodox--heretical--to teach that the Father and the Son are two separate gods (Arianism). Or to teach some form of tritheism.

It is heretical to deny that there is an actuality in the Hypostases of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son, the Father is Father of the Son. When Jesus prayed to the Father, He wasn't praying to Himself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wololo]

I won't debate it here (might open up another thread in the unorthodox section as I'm curious to discuss it). Just wanted to let the OP know that it's not particularly uncommon.

 

[Tree of Life]

Oh look this is one of the few things that makes me an unorthodox Christian. I feel that "Orthodox" Christians believe in 3 Gods. I'll probably get in trouble for saying that. The 3 'persons' are in fact 3 'manifestations' of a singular God that can exist at the same time while still retaining their inherent oneness. It's essentially Modalism. If I want to discuss that I probably have to move a couple forums over.

Who was Jesus talking to when he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane?

 

[Tree of Life]

There a lot of Christians that believe that God is One and it is very easily justified from scripture. For me the three manifestations of God are fine, but I don't limit myself to those three. It's considered heresy by mainstream Christians though. Never understood why.

What do you mean that you don't limit yourself to those three?

 

[Albion]

There a lot of Christians that believe that God is One and it is very easily justified from scripture.

In fact, virtually all Christians believe that God is One, including Trinitarians.

For me the three manifestations of God are fine, but I don't limit myself to those three. It's considered heresy by mainstream Christians though. Never understood why.

Because the Bible indicates that there are three. If it said that there are two...or four instead...we'd be going by that.

 

[Wololo]

Who was Jesus talking to when he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane?

He was providing us with an example of how to pray as men...because he was here to live like one of us. He did the same thing with the Lord's prayer.

What do you mean that you don't limit yourself to those three?

God can manifest himself however he wants. As Jesus he is a man. As the Holy Spirit he is a spirit. As God he is a full fledged deity. All of these are still God and all can exist at the same time. God can exist in whatever form or capacity he chooses. He was also a Pillar of Flame for the Israelites at night back in the Old Testament. Was he not God then?

In fact, virtually all Christians believe that God is One, including Trinitarians.

Because the Bible indicates that there are three. If it said that there are two...or four instead...we'd be going by that.

Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that there are three different 'essences' or 'people'. The problem is a semantic one too. The very concept of 3 different people would mean 3 different Gods. You cannot have three different 'essences' and call them the same entity. If Jesus is known by a separate name from God and operates 'outside of him', then they are two separate 'essences'...or else it's another deity. Linguistically there's no way to reconcile this. If you can divide God into any sort of pieces or people, it's not the same God. We don't do that with people...

We can look at a section of John 14.

"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" - John 14:9 ESV

Or perhaps Colossians:

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him." - Colossians 1:15-16 ESV

That section is clearly talking about Jesus being the creator, even though the Trinitarian perspective is one of God being the creator not Jesus.

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6 ESV

That passage references Jesus as being "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father" in the same breath.

There are several spurious passages in the New Testament that refer to an inherent threeness, but those have been under dispute for a long time and don't seem to mesh with the rest of the texts.

In a nutshell, God is omnipresent and can manifest himself how he pleases. It's a form of Sabellianism and is contrary to the Nicene Creed...and is hence unorthodox. I'm your friendly neighbourhood heretic, yes.