PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

 

[bugkiller]

An Antarctican day, from sunset to sunset lasts a year at the south pole. I guess the 7th day sabbath in Antarctica would be particularly arduous to observe.

Naw they would probably be jumping up and down about not working.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee An Antarctican day, from sunset to sunset lasts a year at the south pole.
I guess the 7th day sabbath in Antarctica would be particularly arduous to observe.

What about Alaska and Greenland near the North Pole?

Antarctica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Antarctica ( i/æntˈɑrtɨkə/ or /ænˈtɑrktɨkə/)[Note 1] is Earth's southernmost continent, containing the geographic South Pole. It is situated in the Antarctic region of the Southern Hemisphere, almost entirely south of the Antarctic Circle, and is surrounded by the Southern Ocean. At 14.0 million km2 (5.4 million sq mi), it is the fifth-largest continent in area after Asia, Africa, North America, and South America. For comparison, Antarctica is nearly twice the size of Australia. About 98% of Antarctica is covered by ice that averages at least 1 mile (1.6 km) in thickness.

 

[bugkiller]

I am still looking for discussion about the points and comments of the debate.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Ditto above post.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am still looking for discussion about the points and comments of the debate.

bugkiller

Ditto above post.

bugkiller

Ditto also.....


.

 

[from scratch]

Ditto above post.

bugkiller

Pretty good debate. I enjoyed it. Have you thought about advertizing in the SDA section?

 

[dollarsbill]

No Sabbath commands in the NT, except DON'T judge anyone about Sabbaths.

 

[bugkiller]

No Sabbath commands in the NT, except DON'T judge anyone about Sabbaths.

That is what I thought. Must be why none are or have ever been posted.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by dollarsbill No Sabbath commands in the NT, except DON'T judge anyone about Sabbaths.

That is what I thought. Must be why none are or have ever been posted.

bugkiller

They are too "busy" observing the Sabbath today

.

 

[bugkiller]

They are too "busy" observing the Sabbath today

.

OK maybe they were. The sabbath is over and they now have no excuse.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by dollarsbill No Sabbath commands in the NT, except DON'T judge anyone about Sabbaths.

Originally Posted by bugkiller
​

That is what I thought. Must be why none are or have ever been posted.

bugkiller
​

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

They are too "busy" observing the Sabbath today
​

​

OK maybe they were. The sabbath is over and they now have no excuse.

bugkiller

.

 

[bugkiller]

And many more have come and gone. So I do not understand the problem. We are thru the holiday season as well.

bugkiller

PS thanks for bumping it up guys.

 

[tall73]

An Antarctican day, from sunset to sunset lasts a year at the south pole. I guess the 7th day sabbath in Antarctica would be particularly arduous to observe.

Since no Adventists have answered this I will post a quote from Ellen White in which she proposed a solution--don't live there!

God rested on the seventh day, and set it apart for man to observe in honor of His creation of the heavens and the earth in six literal days. He blessed and sanctified and made holy the day of rest. When men are so careful to search and dig to see in regard to the precise period of time, we are to say, God made His Sabbath for a round world; and when the seventh day comes to us in that round world, controlled by the sun that rules the day, it is the time, in all countries and lands, to observe the Sabbath. In the countries where there is no sunset for months, and again no sunrise for months, the period of time will be calculated by records kept. But God has a world large enough, and proper and right for the human beings He has created to inhabit it, without finding homes in those lands so objectionable in very many, many ways. {12MR 159.1}

The Lord accepts all the obedience of every creature He has made, according to the circumstances of time in the sun-rising and sun-setting world. Obedience is the test; and all this plowing into the intricacy of the precise minutes and hours of the Sabbath—it is the test of man’s obedience to honor and glorify God. To sin, or transgression of His law, God will prove a consuming fire. The Sabbath observance is “a sign between Me and you throughout your generations forever.”—Letter 167, 1900, pp. 1, 2. (To G. A. Irwin, March 23, 1900.) {12MR 159.2}

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath Commandment is still binding on Christians today and has been applicable to the saints - the people of God from Eden to this very day. This is affirmation of the Commandments of God, of the Sabbath Commandment's origin, of the continued authority of the Sabbath commandment from the Bible in Ex 20:8-11, from Gen 2:1-3, from Mark 2:27, from Is 66:23 from 1Cor 7:19 from 1John 5:1-4, from Mark 7:6-13, from Eph 6:2 from Rev 14:12 ... etc is not only affirmed by Seventh-day Adventists, and not only by other Bible believing Christians who keep the seventh day Sabbath as God gave it to mankind in Eden ... but also by the majority of even pro-sunday Christian scholarship as we see here... #1.

The fiction that it is only the SDAs that see these Bible details is not supportable given the facts in that link and the associated discussion that follows up -- indeed "that ship has sailed" even by the standards of the majority of Christian scholarship.

Thus even MoreCofee is reduced to nothing more than the penguins that suffer the difficulty of "an Antarctican day" in his attempts to oppose

An Antarctican day, from sunset to sunset lasts a year at the south pole. I guess the 7th day sabbath in Antarctica would be particularly arduous to observe.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

The Sabbath Commandment is still binding on Christians today and has been applicable to the saints - the people of God from Eden to this very day. This is affirmation of the Commandments of God, of the Sabbath Commandment's origin, of the continued authority of the Sabbath commandment from the Bible in Ex 20:8-11, from Gen 2:1-3, from Mark 2:27, from Is 66:23 from 1Cor 7:19 from 1John 5:1-4, from Mark 7:6-13, from Eph 6:2 from Rev 14:12 ... etc is not only affirmed by Seventh-day Adventists, and not only by other Bible believing Christians who keep the seventh day Sabbath as God gave it to mankind in Eden ... but also by the majority of even pro-sunday Christian scholarship as we see here... #1.

The fiction that it is only the SDAs that see these Bible details is not supportable given the facts in that link and the associated discussion that follows up -- indeed "that ship has sailed" even by the standards of the majority of Christian scholarship.

Thus even MoreCofee is reduced to nothing more than the penguins that suffer the difficulty of "an Antarctican day" in his attempts to oppose


in Christ,

Bob

Nice of you to bring this thread up.

Where do you get the idea the Sabbath is binding on the Christian?

Who is the Sabbath given to? Why did God command the Israelites to keep the Sabbath if it was given to all men everywhere? Moses himself does not support your position. See Deut 5:3. Moses does not say all men. He says Israel only. Even in the giving of the 10 Cs God told Moses to gather the children of Israel. God did not tell Moses to gather a mixed congregation. Prior to leaving Egypt God punished no one for not keeping the Sabbath.


The Sabbath did not originate in Genesis. The word does not even appear in the book.

To use MK 2:27 for support you must divorce it from the context of who it was spoken to. The argument there were non Israelites present does not validate your opinion. Jesus was not addressing a group. Jesus was addressing those who asked a question. They were Jews. In that context anthropos is limited to Israelites to comply with the Book of the Law. If God gave the Sabbath to Israel as a sign of the covenant, it would be special. If all mankind were told to observe it, it could have no special meaning to Israel. See Ex 31:13.

Is 66:23 does not say anything about the Sabbath. The verse merely is the way time was referenced. "From ... to" has nothing to do with on. For your verse to be talking about the Sabbath it would have to be "on" and not "from...to."

In 1 Cor 7:19 Paul is not teaching nor addressing the 10 Cs the rest of the law. Circumcision is a commandment. To take your position Paul is double speaking. Double speaking is lying to deceive. God does not use such a tactic. That would be violating His principles lowering Him to our status of sinner. God can not sin. The other way this is gotten around is to say Paul is a false prophet and not inspired by God. That also means 2 Tim 3:16 is a lie because Corinthians is equated as or on the level of Scripture by Peter in 2 Pet 3:16.

As for 1 John 5:1-4 and Rev 14:12 you and John are not referencing the same commandments as is evident with 1 JN 3:23 and John 1:17 and 15:10.

Concerning MK 7:6-13 Jesus is talking specifically Jews about the law. Outside of that context the passage has no meaning. In the USA we have no law or tradition about washing cups and hands is a certain fashion. There is law concerning food handling requiring the washing of hands and to my knowledge only applies in the public preparation of foods at eating establishments or food manufacturing places.

To use Eph 6:2 as a proof Paul is teaching and requiring Christians to keep the law is absurd in light of Romans and Galatians.

I did not see any quotes from the pro-Sunday scholarship in your linked post.

This thread and its companion thread, the formal debate show and prove the Sabbath is not required of the Christian or anyone outside of Israel. Furthermore the temporary law (Gal 3:19) requiring this has been replaced with a permanent unconditional covenant Per even the prophets which have nothing to do with Gospels nor Paul.

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath Commandment is still binding on Christians today and has been applicable to the saints - the people of God from Eden to this very day. This is affirmation of the Commandments of God, of the Sabbath Commandment's origin, of the continued authority of the Sabbath commandment from the Bible in Ex 20:8-11, from Gen 2:1-3, from Mark 2:27, from Is 66:23 from 1Cor 7:19 from 1John 5:1-4, from Mark 7:6-13, from Eph 6:2 from Rev 14:12 ... etc is not only affirmed by Seventh-day Adventists, and not only by other Bible believing Christians who keep the seventh day Sabbath as God gave it to mankind in Eden ... but also by the majority of even pro-sunday Christian scholarship as we see here... #1.

The fiction that it is only the SDAs that see these Bible details is not supportable given the facts in that link and the associated discussion that follows up -- indeed "that ship has sailed" even by the standards of the majority of Christian scholarship.

Thus even MoreCofee is reduced to nothing more than the penguins that suffer the difficulty of "an Antarctican day" in his attempts to oppose

Nice of you to bring this thread up.

You are welcome - sooo many people have mentioned my debate here and supposed that maybe there was a point made here that they would like to reference .... just trying to help out.

Where do you get the idea the Sabbath is binding on the Christian?

The same place the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship get it from --

Gen 2:1-3
Is 66:23 , Mark 2:27 (all mankind)
1Cor 7:19,
1John 5:1-4
Heb 4: 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God
Rev 14:12
Mark 7:6-13

Who is the Sabbath given to?

Mankind - according to God Is 66;23 -- and according to Christ Mark 2:27.

Were you wondering if Jews were part of mankind?

Why did God command the Israelites to keep the Sabbath if it was given to all men

You ask that question is if it is logcal not to ask Israel to keep a Law that all mankind is supposed to keep.

Interesting that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship does not go to that extreme.

Moses himself does not support your position

Until you read Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11 and notice that it is the Gen 2 event alone - given to mankind that establishes the fact that Christ Himself affirms in Mark 2:27.

Are you are supposing that "I wrote" Mark 2:27??

. See Deut 5:3. Moses does not say all men. He says Israel only.

Deut 5:3 does not say "Israel only is to keep the Commandments of God" nor does it say "Israel only is to keep the Sabbath".

But it does speak of the entire Sinai event - including God speaking from the midst of fire - as being something that Israel only was part of -

4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. He said,

Hint - that includes "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 given at Sinai and also "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

The Sabbath did not originate in Genesis.

God appears to differ with your view when HE says that HE made Sabbath in Eden - see Ex 20:11 speaking of the Eden event.

To use MK 2:27 for support you must divorce it from the context

Not true at all.

There are numerous places in the Bible where God is said to be creator - one can not "delete those statements" because the context is in reference to some message given by a prophet to Israel at a time of rebellion.

The same goes with Mark 2:27 the universal truth given there cannot be "deleted" because it happens to be said in a debate with Jews.

The argument there were non Israelites present

"Non-Israel" is present in Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

"Non Israel" is present in Is 56 when gentiles are blessed for keeping the Sabbath.

"Non Israel" is included in the "Mankind" of Mark 2:27.

Which is the way the scope for "mankind" works -- by definition.

Interesting how even the majority of pro-sunday sources get this Bible detail right.

If God gave the Sabbath to Israel as a sign of the covenant, it would be special. If all mankind were told to observe it, it could have no special meaning to Israel. See Ex 31:13.

On the contrary See Romans 2: refutes that idea - showing that God INClUdes the obedient Gentile in the term "Jew" rather than excluding them.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Is 66:23 does not say anything about the Sabbath.

Until you read the text. "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship".

interesting that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship gets this Bible detail.

The verse merely is the way time was referenced. "From ... to" has nothing to do with on.

Until you read the verse - and find TWO cycles given there 'from new Moon to new Moon - AND FROM -- Sabbath to Sabbath"

You are trying to munge it into "daily I just mean daily... every day" as if there was even one Bible argument for such a bend or wrench of the text.

In 1 Cor 7:19 Paul is not teaching nor addressing the 10 Cs the rest of the law.

Until you read 1Cor 7:18 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" which Christ also affirms in Mark 7:6-13 as a reference to the TEN Commandments.

To take your position Paul is double speaking. Double speaking is lying to deceive. God does not use such a tactic.

Indeed. We all wonder why your argument is meandering down that road to make your point.


you are being sooooo careful not to actually quote these texts... how odd.

As for 1 John 5:1-4 and Rev 14:12 you and John are not referencing the same commandments

Until you read the actual Bible where it is the "Commandments of God" mentioned in both 1John 5:1-4 and Rev 14:12 and by Christ in Mark 7:6-13 when Christ speaks of the TEN Commandments.

as is evident with 1 JN 3:23 and John 1:17 and 15:10.

Not quite true. Post cross 1John 3:23 and pre-cross ( John 1:17 and John 15:10) make no attempt at all to delete scripture.

Concerning MK 7:6-13 Jesus is talking specifically Jews about the law.

Almost all of the Gospel preaching of Christ was to Jews.

If that were the excuse for ignoring Christ we would all have a big problem.

Outside of that context the passage has no meaning. In the USA we have no law or tradition about washing cups and hands is a certain fashion. There is law concerning food handling requiring the washing of hands and to my knowledge only applies in the public preparation of foods at eating establishments or food manufacturing places.

Turns out that is not the point of Mark 7.

To use Eph 6:2 as a proof Paul is teaching and requiring Christians to keep the law is absurd in light of Romans and Galatians.

Until you read Eph 6:2 where we are told to keep the 5th Commandment and that this is the FIRST commandment in that unit of Ten "with a promise".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath Commandment is still binding on Christians today and has been applicable to the saints - the people of God from Eden to this very day. This is affirmation of the Commandments of God, of the Sabbath Commandment's origin, of the continued authority of the Sabbath commandment from the Bible in Ex 20:8-11, from Gen 2:1-3, from Mark 2:27, from Is 66:23 from 1Cor 7:19 from 1John 5:1-4, from Mark 7:6-13, from Eph 6:2 from Rev 14:12 ... etc is not only affirmed by Seventh-day Adventists, and not only by other Bible believing Christians who keep the seventh day Sabbath as God gave it to mankind in Eden ... but also by the majority of even pro-sunday Christian scholarship as we see here... #1.

Click the link

See the that first page for info... or let your eyes read to the bottom of the first post and see this...

(Since some have not looked up the referenced -- I added the info for them here -- #297 (Baptist Confession of Faith)

#13 (D.L. Moody))

Where again - clicking the links will be "instructive" to see what the Baptist Confession of Faith says on this subject or what D.L. Moody said (or if you prefer the Westminster Confession or the others - will provide that as well).

I did not see any quotes from the pro-Sunday scholarship in your linked post.

That would be the OP with a link to quotes for the reader.

This thread and its companion thread, the formal debate show and prove the Sabbath is not required of the Christian or anyone outside of Israel.

In the link I provide the reference is to the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship flatly debunking the idea that the Sabbath Commandment is not applicable to the saints today.

Furthermore the temporary law (Gal 3:19) requiring this has been replaced with a permanent unconditional covenant Per even the prophets which have nothing to do with Gospels nor Paul.

To wipe out the OT and cut your Bible down to 23 books in the NT (I assume you wiped out the pre-cross gospels as well) would also wipe out "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 and "Do not take God's name in vain" in Ex 20...

And it would wipe out the NT writers that quote the OT text as being "scripture" and "the Word of God" etc -- including Christ in Mark 7:6-13.

Not an extreme that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship is willing to go to -- apparently.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

Click the link

Read the link. There is nothing new there. It is just the same old repeated tired argument and info you always seem to be presenting.

See the that first page for info... or let your eyes read to the bottom of the first post and see this...

(Since some have not looked up the referenced -- I added the info for them here -- #297 (Baptist Confession of Faith)

#13 (D.L. Moody))

I also read these. I would like to know why you do not say anything about the quotes provided by Bugkiller in your debate concerning these selective quotes. Seems to me he shows they are referencing Sunday when they talk about Christian obligation. Did they use the phrase Christian Sabbath? I will let you check. If you do not check I will and post the quotes. In short you are being dishonest about the matter. This is intentional. The very commandments you say you uphold condemn you.

Where again - clicking the links will be "instructive" to see what the Baptist Confession of Faith says on this subject or what D.L. Moody said (or if you prefer the Westminster Confession or the others - will provide that as well).

What exactly do they practice? You might say it does not matter and has no bearing on what they say. I suggest it does give much meaning to those words. It is well known that they intend Sunday when talking about the requirements of Christians. I think it is DL Moody who says one should take a day off for rest without implying it be Saturday the false Sabbath. It is false because it is observed these days by the Gregorian calendar and not the New Moon calendar. They do not mark the same days as the Sabbath or our Saturday.

That would be the OP with a link to quotes for the reader.

Very few people will chase down links or even Scripture references. So you have really presented nothing except opinion. I do the same to you and provide references for the serious individual. If I do not provide support in a post anyone can ask for it. I will generally provide it for some one I do not recognize. You however have had them posted many times in response to you. Like usual you do not seem to respond to those. I get very tired of your ignoring Scripture.

In the link I provide the reference is to the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship flatly debunking the idea that the Sabbath Commandment is not applicable to the saints today.

Yes you rely on selected religious quotes that seem to support your idea. You refuse to acknowledge anything showing the contrary. Why? I thought this was debate. It seems to me you are only preaching. Preaching is not interactive. You are demanding that one say Amen to what you say. That is not debate. You can make all the claims you wish, but that does not make it so. You do and will not examine the Scripture. I am stating observable facts and not attacking you.

To wipe out the OT and cut your Bible down to 23 books in the NT (I assume you wiped out the pre-cross gospels as well) would also wipe out "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 and "Do not take God's name in vain" in Ex 20...

No because both Paul and James write this same thing. It seems anytime something appears in both testaments you think it is an enforceable requirement. Where Jesus says this? One needs to consider the context of the conversation Jesus is have in Mat 19. You idea conflicts with other things Jesus says such as in John 3, 10 and 15. Does 1 abuse the name of some one they love? Seems like you say they do.

And it would wipe out the NT writers that quote the OT text as being "scripture" and "the Word of God" etc -- including Christ in Mark 7:6-13.[
Not an extreme that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship is willing to go to -- apparently..

Quoting something is very different than making a requirement. Your intention is that anytime something is mentioned it is a requirement. Context means nothing to you. I and other have never said the OT is not Scripture nor is not of value for instruction. However, the Christian is not obligated to the temporary covenant made with Israel. The prophets state that covenant is temporary and Paul tells us when it was enforce. Jer 31; Gal 3. You will have none of it. Why?

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath Commandment is still binding on Christians today and has been applicable to the saints - the people of God from Eden to this very day. This is affirmation of the Commandments of God, of the Sabbath Commandment's origin, of the continued authority of the Sabbath commandment from the Bible in Ex 20:8-11, from Gen 2:1-3, from Mark 2:27, from Is 66:23 from 1Cor 7:19 from 1John 5:1-4, from Mark 7:6-13, from Eph 6:2 from Rev 14:12 ... etc is not only affirmed by Seventh-day Adventists, and not only by other Bible believing Christians who keep the seventh day Sabbath as God gave it to mankind in Eden ... but also by the majority of even pro-sunday Christian scholarship as we see here... #1.

Click the link

See the that first page for info... or let your eyes read to the bottom of the first post and see this...

(Since some have not looked up the referenced -- I added the info for them here -- #297 (Baptist Confession of Faith)

#13 (D.L. Moody))

Where again - clicking the links will be "instructive" to see what the Baptist Confession of Faith says on this subject or what D.L. Moody said (or if you prefer the Westminster Confession or the others - will provide that as well).

I did not see any quotes from the pro-Sunday scholarship in
your linked post.

That would be the OP with a link to quotes for the reader.

Read the link. There is nothing new there.

you are using bait-and-switch.

you start off saying you could find no quote from the pro-sunday groups.

Then you bend back to "nothing new".

My argument was never "this is new material from the pro-sunday groups".

You are avoiding the point with a sort of "any ol excuse will do" style solution first taking one tac then another.

It is just the same old repeated tired argument and info you always seem to be presenting.

Because it makes the case that even the pro-sunday scholarship listed there opposes the wild speculation we see regarding opposition to God's Ten Commandments.

so then ... just the obvious.

I also read these. I would like to know why you do not say anything about the quotes provided by Bugkiller in your debate concerning these selective quotes. Seems to me he shows they are referencing Sunday when they talk about Christian obligation.

"Again" you use bait-and-switch. This time switching to implied-straw-man. Which also does not work.

If you look at the OP in that first link it states clearly that after the cross they try to bend the Sabbath commandment to point it to Sunday. You can not refute that point by arguing that BugKiller agrees with it.

Again - just stating the obvious.

Did they use the phrase Christian Sabbath? I will let you check. If you do not check I will and post the quotes. In short you are being dishonest about the matter. This is intentional. The very commandments you say you uphold condemn you

Again you resort to your old tactic of "false accusation" without a shred of evidence in support of you claims about "dishonest" and "intentional" and "condemn" when in fact that OP you are talking about states explicitly that point 7 in the pro-sunday list is to try and bend the Sabbath Commandment to point it to week-day-1.

Back to the confused method of agreeing with that point in the OP and then spinning it self-conflictedly as if your agreement with it proves it to be dishonest.

You need to switch to methods that are less transparently flawed.

in Christ,

Bob