Study finds moral equality between religious and nonreligious

[JGG]

But, of course, it was ALWAYS 'correct' when it happened in the Bible, right? It was only 'wrong' in all those other holy books!

Or it's okay when "I" do it.

Ummm...Boy Scouts also organize and have meetings. They also preach a message. Is that a religion too?

They pray to the god of badges...to get their Worship Badge.

 

[stevevw]

The article writer did a perfectly adequate job of that. There wasn't much for me to add.


eudaimonia,

Mark

So you now claiming to know more than an expert who wrote the original paper form the university of Washington.

Pascal Boyer is in the Departments of Psychology and Anthropology, Washington University in St Louis, Missouri, USA.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7216/pdf/4551038a.pdf

 

[Eudaimonist]

So you now claiming to know more than an expert who wrote the original paper form the university of Washington.

I'm not claiming that he isn't referencing real science, and I'm not claiming to know more science than him.

I am claiming that his personal conclusion from that science is moronic, as any intelligent person can judge. The article explains the deep flaws in his reasoning.

Let me be perfectly clear here. I do not dispute the following:

1) We tell ourselves narratives about our lives.
2) Many people are spiritual.
3) People feel interconnected.
4) Narratives tend to have happy endings.
5) We lack the free will to choose atheism.

What I dispute is that any of these things are intrinsically theistic. Yes, such shared thought patterns may be shared by the religious and the irreligious, but that no more means that atheists do not exist any more than the shared thought patterns mean that theists don't exist. This is faulty reasoning on his part.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So you now claiming to know more than an expert who wrote the original paper form the university of Washington.

Pascal Boyer is in the Departments of Psychology and Anthropology, Washington University in St Louis, Missouri, USA.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7216/pdf/4551038a.pdf

Atheism will always be a harder sell than religion, Pascal Boyer explains, because a slew of cognitive traits predispose us to faith.

Boyer is right on this point. Atheists have to fight an uphill battle in debates because, for many of the difficult questions raised, we simply must admit our ignorance. We don't know how the universe began, though many people are investigating that question. The need for cognitive closure then makes religion's easy answers seem much more appealing than the atheist's admission of ignorance. If Boyer is implying that this is fixed, however, then he is wrong. People learn how to accept "I don't know" as an honest answer and as an invitation to figure it out. As they learn to do this, the easy answers of religion quickly lose their luster. "A slew of cognitive traits" may predispose us to superstition, but it is not some tedious psychological inevitability.

 

[stevevw]

I think you mean "Dawkins," who doesn't take the position you claim.

No I'm quoting Stephen Hawkins.
Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God
Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God - CNET

No, woo peddlers are saying that.

No the actual person who did the study has the original article with nature and is a qualified scientist. The journo was just reporting what he said.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7216/pdf/4551038a.pdf

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No I'm quoting Stephen Hawkins.
Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God
Stephen Hawking makes it clear: There is no God - CNET

You mean Hawking then, not Hawkins.

No the actual person who did the study has the original article with nature and is a qualified scientist. The journo was just reporting what he said.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7216/pdf/4551038a.pdf

I'm well aware of that. I know what I was responding to.

 

[stevevw]

Boyer is right on this point. Atheists have to fight an uphill battle in debates because, for many of the difficult questions raised, we simply must admit our ignorance. We don't know how the universe began, though many people are investigating that question. The need for cognitive closure then makes religion's easy answers seem much more appealing than the atheist's admission of ignorance. If Boyer is implying that this is fixed, however, then he is wrong. People learn how to accept "I don't know" as an honest answer and as an invitation to figure it out. As they learn to do this, the easy answers of religion quickly lose their luster. "A slew of cognitive traits" may predispose us to superstition, but it is not some tedious psychological inevitability.

The signs that some scientists are seeing that cause them to see that there is something beyond the normal parameters of the physical science are not losing their luster. They are in fact increasing with more and more reports along these lines coming out as time goes by. Its not a case always that they need to keep waiting and digging to find better answers which will resolve the mystery. What they are seeing is indicating that these are the results. They are seeing that there is something happening beyond the normal physics and into another realm. Thats why we are getting so many scientists speaking this way now about other dimensions and realms which may answer the perplexing things they are seeing at the moment with astrophysics and quantum mechanics.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The signs that some scientists are seeing that cause them to see that there is something beyond the normal parameters of the physical science are not losing their luster. They are in fact increasing with more and more reports along these lines coming out as time goes by.

But they're not, steve. That just isn't true. The majority of people who are peddling this New Age pseudoscience are not scientists actively working in the field. On the rare occasion that they happen to be scientists, they often aren't even working in a relevant field!

Its not a case always that they need to keep waiting and digging to find better answers which will resolve the mystery. What they are seeing is indicating that these are the results. They are seeing that there is something happening beyond the normal physics and into another realm. Thats why we are getting so many scientists speaking this way now about other dimensions and realms which may answer the perplexing things they are seeing at the moment with astrophysics and quantum mechanics.

I already posted the video of a scientist reacting to quantum woo. The general reaction is as follows:

Scientists aren't peddling this nonsense. They're annoyed by it. And so they should be. People are misrepresenting their work.

 

[Euler]

The signs that some scientists are seeing that cause them to see that there is something beyond the normal parameters of the physical science are not losing their luster. They are in fact increasing with more and more reports along these lines coming out as time goes by. Its not a case always that they need to keep waiting and digging to find better answers which will resolve the mystery. What they are seeing is indicating that these are the results. They are seeing that there is something happening beyond the normal physics and into another realm. Thats why we are getting so many scientists speaking this way now about other dimensions and realms which may answer the perplexing things they are seeing at the moment with astrophysics and quantum mechanics.

Continually repeating a mistruth will not magically make it true.

 

[stevevw]

I'm not claiming that he isn't referencing real science, and I'm not claiming to know more science than him.

I am claiming that his personal conclusion from that science is moronic, as any intelligent person can judge. The article explains the deep flaws in his reasoning.

Let me be perfectly clear here. I do not dispute the following:

1) We tell ourselves narratives about our lives.
2) Many people are spiritual.
3) People feel interconnected.
4) Narratives tend to have happy endings.
5) We lack the free will to choose atheism.

What I dispute is that any of these things are intrinsically theistic. Yes, such shared thought patterns may be shared by the religious and the irreligious, but that no more means that atheists do not exist any more than the shared thought patterns mean that theists don't exist. This is faulty reasoning on his part.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Thats fair enough and I wont dispute that. The only thing I will say is that this combined with other conclusions that some scientists have come to is that there maybe more to us and life than we think. Other scientists are coming to similar conclusions in different ways that point to there being some other dimension or realms beyond the physical. It seems modern science is moving more and more into these fields. Is it in their heads or is there something really to all this. I guess only time will tell.

 

[quatona]

Thats far enough and I wont dispute that. The only thing I will say is that this combined with other conclusions that some scientists have come to is that there maybe more to us and life than we think. Other scientists are coming to similar conclusions in different ways that point to there being some other dimension or realms beyond the physical. It seems modern science is moving more and more into these fields. Is it in their heads or is there something really to all this. I guess only time will tell.

Yes, science´s understanding of nature is improving and advancing continually, and they have come across some weird stuff already, haven´t they. Interestingly, no matter how weird their findings are, they never were weird enough to declare them God or the Supernatural.
That´s because science looks for explanations, and the allegedly Supernatural depends on remaining unexplained/unexplainable.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Thats far enough and I wont dispute that.

Thank you.

The only thing I will say is that this combined with other conclusions that some scientists have come to is that there maybe more to us and life than we think. Other scientists are coming to similar conclusions in different ways that point to there being some other dimension or realms beyond the physical.

Examples?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[stevevw]

Continually repeating a mistruth will not magically make it true.

How do you know its not true, how do you know what I am talking about are mistruths. The thing is people use to talk about life after death and it use to be this mystical thing that we couldn't grasp. But ever since time began we have been looking to the heavens and within ourselves for something. We havnt been able to put our finger on it but there has always been this yearning. I and many others including non religious people believe there is something beyond this physical life. Call it our conscience being aware before and after our physical life or a spiritual realm. We are studying this field more and more and the science is showing some indications that there maybe something to it.

Quantum physics points in that direction, astrophysics indicates that there maybe something beyond what we see out in that dark space. How the universe began brings up questions that move into areas that are beyond our material world. We are hitting a wall with the physical evidence and its now moving beyond this. We have reached a point where we are so close to how something can come from nothing and this is where we have to consider other possibilities because there isn't much else. The physical science has been at the for front and will still play a big part. But now its time to start to consider other possibilities to life and existence.

 

[Euler]

How do you know its not true, how do you know what I am talking about are mistruths.

Because scientists are simply NOT saying the kinds of things that you say they are. And this has been pointed out to you many times.

The thing is people use to talk about life after death and it use to be this mystical thing that we couldn't grasp.

And we used to talk about the 'heavens' as if it was some solid barrier that stood over us. And we used to talk about the stars being fixed in this barrier and that one day those stars could/would fall to earth. And we used to talk about lightning being caused by angry gods.

There are many 'mystical' things we used to consider. Better knowledge and understanding has swept those considerations aside.

But ever since time began we have been looking to the heavens and within ourselves for something. We havnt been able to put our finger on it but there has always been this yearning. I and many others including non religious people believe there is something beyond this physical life. Call it our conscience being aware before and after our physical life or a spiritual realm.

There is no doubt that human beings are predisposed towards seeking patterns - even if no pattern exists. We like, no demand, explanations for things. This has meant that we have preferred to come up with an explanation for death, even if it is an explanation lacking any evidence.

We are studying this field more and more and the science is showing some indications that there maybe something to it.

And here is your mistruth repeated. Science has produced NO such indications.

Quantum physics points in that direction,

No it doesn't. Your wishing that it does is of no consequence.

astrophysics indicates that there maybe something beyond what we see out in that dark space.

Definitely. But that's entirely within the gambit of science. To investigate the physical universe.

How the universe began brings up questions that move into areas that are beyond our material world. We are hitting a wall with the physical evidence and its now moving beyond this. We have reached a point where we are so close to how something can come from nothing and this is where we have to consider other possibilities because there isn't much else. The physical science has been at the for front and will still play a big part. But now its time to start to consider other possibilities to life and existence.

And around and around you go. Say it as many times as you like. You won't find any scientist involved in physics whose work will support your fantasy.

 

[stevevw]

Thank you.



Examples?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Multi universes where they say there are millions of other dimensions, String theory that has several dimensions, hologram theory has a 2 dimensional world like a flat screen TV. The possibility that our consciousnesses can exist beyond our bodies as stated by some scientists. This new theory is called bio centrism and has as much validity as multi universe or hologram theories. It has been covered by scientists who talk directly about how the finely tuned univrse points to something beyond our reality and in quantum physics showing that there could be other dimensions at work besides our reality. This is also being found with scientists who are doing experiments with NDE and collecting evidence at the moment.

Late last year Brukner and Kofler showed that it does not matter how many particles are around, or how large an object is, quantum mechanics always holds true. The reason we see our world as we do is because of what we use to observe it. The human body is a just barely adequate measuring device. Quantum mechanics does not always wash itself out, but to observe its effects for larger and larger objects we would need more and more accurate measurement devices. We just do not have the sensitivity to observe the quantum effects around us. In essence we do create the classical world we perceive, and as Brukner said, “There could be other classical worlds completely different from ours.”
The Reality Tests § SEEDMAGAZINE.COM

Scientists Claim That Quantum Theory Proves Consciousness Moves To Another Universe At Death | Spirit Science and Metaphysics
Has Science Explained Life After Death? - HowStuffWorks

Accepting quantum physics to be universally true, argues Max Tegmark, means that you should also believe in parallel universes.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v448/n7149/full/448023a.html

Our thoughts are the language of the universe -- the frequency of our thoughts, not the words that we use to describe our thoughts. The Universe/God sends us back exactly what we are asking for. It is not listening to our words though, only our brain waves. The universe does not judge; it simply returns what we are projecting out with our brain waves. These waves can be measured and represent our consciousness. It is our consciousness that creates our world in the natural. Hence, for the first time in the history of man, ask and it shall be given is a biblical truism that can be explained using Quantum theory.
Can Quantum Physics Explain God? | Peter Baksa

But if microscopic things do do so, then we must concede that such events defy reason and transcend the productive power of nature. For nature cannot create what it does not have with materials that it does not have, just like builders cannot build a house with materials that do not exist. So, even if so called quantum particles exist or virtual particles exist, they support supernaturalisim and metaphysical propositions about the origin of the universe.
Does Quantum Physics Suggest Evidence Of The Supernatural? | The Dunamis Word 2

A prize-winning quantum physicist says a spiritual reality is veiled from us, and science offers a glimpse behind that veil. So how do scientists investigating the fundamental nature of the universe assess any role of God, asks Mark Vernon.
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | What do you get if you divide science by God?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

How do you know its not true, how do you know what I am talking about are mistruths. The thing is people use to talk about life after death and it use to be this mystical thing that we couldn't grasp. But ever since time began we have been looking to the heavens and within ourselves for something. We havnt been able to put our finger on it but there has always been this yearning. I and many others including non religious people believe there is something beyond this physical life. Call it our conscience being aware before and after our physical life or a spiritual realm. We are studying this field more and more and the science is showing some indications that there maybe something to it.

Quantum physics points in that direction, astrophysics indicates that there maybe something beyond what we see out in that dark space. How the universe began brings up questions that move into areas that are beyond our material world. We are hitting a wall with the physical evidence and its now moving beyond this. We have reached a point where we are so close to how something can come from nothing and this is where we have to consider other possibilities because there isn't much else. The physical science has been at the for front and will still play a big part. But now its time to start to consider other possibilities to life and existence.

Multi universes where they say there are millions of other dimensions, String theory that has several dimensions, hologram theory has a 2 dimensional world like a flat screen TV. The possibility that our consciousnesses can exist beyond our bodies as stated by some scientists. This new theory is called bio centrism and has as much validity as multi universe or hologram theories. It has been covered by scientists who talk directly about how the finely tuned univrse points to something beyond our reality and in quantum physics showing that there could be other dimensions at work besides our reality. This is also being found with scientists who are doing experiments with NDE and collecting evidence at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DGgvE6hLAU

Most physicists react to this in the same way that I react when people tell me that we only use 10% of our brains.

 

[stevevw]

Because scientists are simply NOT saying the kinds of things that you say they are. And this has been pointed out to you many times.

Well I beg to differ if you refer to my previous post. Even if you question what they are saying there are a lot of scientists saying that there maybe something beyond our reality even prize winning scientists.

And we used to talk about the 'heavens' as if it was some solid barrier that stood over us. And we used to talk about the stars being fixed in this barrier and that one day those stars could/would fall to earth. And we used to talk about lightning being caused by angry gods.

And now we have come to understand what they represent in a naturalistic world. And now we have even moved beyond that to a world beyond our reality as well. To have a truly open mind we need to allow for the possibility of something beyond our material world. Certainly the latest evidence points in that direction. It would be wrong to disallow this and restrict the possibility that something beyond the physical can help explain what we are seeing at the moment in quantum physics and our finely tuned universe.

There are many 'mystical' things we used to consider. Better knowledge and understanding has swept those considerations aside.

Yes and we have such great knowledge now that we are at the door step of where something comes into existence from nothing and no amount of logical scientific experimentation will explain this. That science has done us well and will continue to. But there comes a point where we have to start to consider that there maybe other things at work besides the logical physics we know of and there may be some other forces at work beyond them. How else can you explain something from nothing.

There is no doubt that human beings are predisposed towards seeking patterns - even if no pattern exists. We like, no demand, explanations for things. This has meant that we have preferred to come up with an explanation for death, even if it is an explanation lacking any evidence.

Welll thats up for dispute as it seems that there is some evidence if not indirect at the moment. Remember we what we are dealing with here. Something that cannot be measured by the normal ways that our material world can be measured. So you cant treat it the same way to begin with. In fact science cannot even attempt to measure this. We have to approach this from a different angle and look at it with a open mind to truly understand and see if there is anything to it. But certainly there is a vast amount of indirect evidence that is accumulating.

And here is your mistruth repeated. Science has produced NO such indications.

Once again I beg to differ. There are many scientists who will disagree.

No it doesn't. Your wishing that it does is of no consequence.

Once again you will have to refer to the links I have attached with my other post. You must not have understood quantum physics. A lot of what scientists are saying about quantum physics and reality points to whether our conscience makes it or reality makes us. The evidence from the quantum world would suggest that what we see isn't what really is and that there maybe more to existence than what we see. This is a fundamental thought with quantum physics.

Definitely. But that's entirely within the gambit of science. To investigate the physical universe.

Well what happened before the big bang and before time and space is something really beyond a physical universe. As before this there was no physical universe, space and time. This is linked to the other things they are finding out about with dark energy and dark matter and our finely tuned universe. All these things go beyond the normal measurements we can put on things with the science. So we cant really apply this method to these things. That is why scientists themselves are coming up with far fetched theories like multi universes and string theory. The theories they have are matching the evidence of what they are seeing. In other words they are finding some hard to explain things which are requiring explanations that are way beyond the normal ways we can explain things and measure things.

Its not a case that they will eventually find some logical explanation. This is it and thats why they are coming up with these crazy hypothesis. They are moving beyond our reality and into other realities to accommodate what they are seeing. My question is if they are willing to do this and use their theories which are beyond reality then why not God as he is also the same. Except I would say He fits the puzzle better then the ones they are using if you take into consideration what the indirect evidence is showing like with the finely tuned universe and quantum mechanics.

And around and around you go. Say it as many times as you like. You won't find any scientist involved in physics whose work will support your fantasy.

Well sooner or later you may see the light.

 

[stevevw]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DGgvE6hLAU

Most physicists react to this in the same way that I react when people tell me that we only use 10% of our brains.

Yeah Ive seen this and he doesn't address things. Its not only Lanza who is saying it now. We have prize winning scientsis as well. If you look at some of the things mainstream science is saying with things like multi universes there is little evidence for this as well and it stretches the imagination. Yet this is quite acceptable.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yeah Ive seen this and he doesn't address things. Its not only Lanza who is saying it now. We have prize winning scientsis as well. If you look at some of the things mainstream science is saying with things like multi universes there is little evidence for this as well and it stretches the imagination. Yet this is quite acceptable.

I know you've seen it. The issue is that you ignore what Moriarty is saying because it is contrary to what you claim scientists are saying.

 

[Euler]

I know you've seen it. The issue is that you ignore what Moriarty is saying because it is contrary to what you claim scientists are saying.

He can't have it both ways. On the one hand, he claims that there is this 'alternate reality' out there that is beyond the scope of our science to fathom or to measure. When it suits, he belittles the inadequacy of the scientific method.

But then, he claims that it is our scientists who are discovering that this 'other world' might exist!

It's the most dishonest position I've seen an apologist take. It smacks of desperation and wish-thinking.

"Here's a bright, shiny new thing. It must prove God!"