Study finds moral equality between religious and nonreligious

[stevevw]

Steve,

You read what you want to read.

Do atheists believe there is a God? Of course not, they don't see any evidence or logical reason to believe one exists. Similar to you not believing in the religious beliefs of those who pray to a different God than you.

Now, do atheists claim it is impossible that a God does exist? I don't claim it is impossible, nor have I seen anyone else on this sight claim it was impossible. There may be atheists that do make this claim, but they are few and far between and would be the opposite of a Christian who claims; it is impossible for a God not to exist.

Does that make sense Steve?

All I was saying was that some atheists who state there isnt a God are actually having a form of faith because they have no proof that their position is true. All I can go on is the statements they make. If they say there is no God then I take that as meaning what they say. In fact you may say that you have not seen anyone state that its impossible for their to be a God on this forum. But I have come across many who take the position in saying there is no God and back this up by saying there is not evidence and ask for it to be proved. This to me is saying there is absolutely no God and all we have is what we see. There is not even any supernatural things and they are pretty strong on taking that stand. So I can only go on what position they take and what they say not what they meant to say or what they really mean.

 

[Euler]

As quoted in my last post.
Well according to wiki
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.
So though atheists generally say there is no evidence for a God there are some atheists who believe there is no God. They will tell you there is no God. You hear it time and time again on these forums. So that is their belief that there is no God.

Don't you believe there is no God. I think if I checked out what you have said in the past by the way you strongly disagree I would say you have stated that there is no God.

I dont have to go and look back at whether you have stated that you dont believe there is a God as you just said it. Thats what I am trying to say that people have beliefs in things. One of those is a belief that there is no God. This is what many atheists say that there is no God or gods. So they believe that there are no gods just like you admitted now. So your belief is there is no gods. This is based on a faith as you dont have evidence to completely rule that out that there are no gods.

You just revel in being wrong don't you?

I said that I have no belief in God. I have NEVER said that there is no God. So please apologize.

 

[stevevw]

You just revel in being wrong don't you?

I said that I have no belief in God. I have NEVER said that there is no God. So please apologize.

Ok fair enough. I cant be bothered going over all your past posts to see if you have ever taken the position of saying there is no Gods as a belief. But you are missing the point. I am saying that some people within the atheists view do take that stand that there are no Gods. They out rightly state there are no Gods. They will ask for evidence and when no one can produce any they then reaffirm their position by saying that no one can show any evidence for their being a God or nay gods. Most atheists sites more or less say the same things and you hear it all the time about some atheists saying there are NO GODS.

Here is a famous atheists Stephen Hawkins who says there is no God.
"What I meant by 'we would know the mind of God' is we would know everything that God would know if there was a God, but there isn't. I'm an atheist."
Stephen Hawking Confirms Atheist Beliefs: 'There Is No God,' Physicist Says
Other athiests have also said this. This is a position some take as part of atheism. So as I was trying to state before Many people have a belief in things other than religion. This is what defines us by what we believe.

But here is also an interesting new thought that is being presented that maybe there isn't really any atheists. That we are all born with some sort of belief in a realm beyond our reality. We believe this way by default and its built deep within our psych. Speaking of surveys this is one from Pew one of Americas biggest survey companies.

Cognitive scientists are becoming increasingly aware that a metaphysical outlook may be so deeply ingrained in human thought processes that it cannot be expunged. While this idea may seem outlandish—after all, it seems easy to decide not to believe in God—evidence from several disciplines indicates that what you actually believe is not a decision you make for yourself. Your fundamental beliefs are decided by much deeper levels of consciousness, and some may well be more or less set in stone.

This line of thought has led to some scientists claiming that “atheism is psychologically impossible because of the way humans think,” says Graham Lawton, an avowed atheist himself, writing in the New Scientist. “They point to studies showing, for example, that even people who claim to be committed atheists tacitly hold religious beliefs, such as the existence of an immortal soul.”


This shouldn’t come as a surprise, since we are born believers, not atheists, scientists say. Humans are pattern-seekers from birth, with a belief in karma, or cosmic justice, as our default setting. “A slew of cognitive traits predisposes us to faith,” writes Pascal Boyer in Nature, the science journal, adding that people “are only aware of some of their religious ideas”.

These findings may go a long way to explaining a series of puzzles in recent social science studies. In the United States, 38% of people who identified themselves as atheist or agnostic went on to claim to believe in a God or a Higher Power (Pew Forum, “Religion and the Unaffiliated”, 2012).



When researchers asked people whether they had taken part in esoteric spiritual practices such as having a Reiki session or having their aura read, the results were almost identical (between 38 and 40%) for people who defined themselves as religious, non-religious or atheist.



The implication is that we all believe in a not dissimilar range of tangible and intangible realities. Whether a particular brand of higher consciousness is included in that list (“I believe in God”, “I believe in some sort of higher force”, “I believe in no higher consciousness”) is little more than a detail.
Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that?s not a joke


Atheists are more dedicated to Atheism than the average Christians.
http://www.science20.com/science_an...re_dedicated_atheism_average_christians-70263




“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning...”
― C.S. Lewis

 

[Euler]

Ok fair enough. I cant be bothered going over all your past posts to see if you have ever taken the position of saying there is no Gods as a belief. But you are missing the point.

No. You're missing the point. The point is that you accused me of making a stance that I've never taken. I am not Stephen Hawking. I am Euler. I would thank you not to put words in my mouth.

A big person would apologize.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

But here is also an interesting new thought that is being presented that maybe there isn't really any atheists. That we are all born with some sort of belief in a realm beyond our reality. We believe this way by default and its built deep within our psych. Speaking of surveys this is one from Pew one of Americas biggest survey companies.

Cognitive scientists are becoming increasingly aware that a metaphysical outlook may be so deeply ingrained in human thought processes that it cannot be expunged. While this idea may seem outlandish—after all, it seems easy to decide not to believe in God—evidence from several disciplines indicates that what you actually believe is not a decision you make for yourself. Your fundamental beliefs are decided by much deeper levels of consciousness, and some may well be more or less set in stone.

This line of thought has led to some scientists claiming that “atheism is psychologically impossible because of the way humans think,” says Graham Lawton, an avowed atheist himself, writing in the New Scientist. “They point to studies showing, for example, that even people who claim to be committed atheists tacitly hold religious beliefs, such as the existence of an immortal soul.”


This shouldn’t come as a surprise, since we are born believers, not atheists, scientists say. Humans are pattern-seekers from birth, with a belief in karma, or cosmic justice, as our default setting. “A slew of cognitive traits predisposes us to faith,” writes Pascal Boyer in Nature, the science journal, adding that people “are only aware of some of their religious ideas”.

These findings may go a long way to explaining a series of puzzles in recent social science studies. In the United States, 38% of people who identified themselves as atheist or agnostic went on to claim to believe in a God or a Higher Power (Pew Forum, “Religion and the Unaffiliated”, 2012).



When researchers asked people whether they had taken part in esoteric spiritual practices such as having a Reiki session or having their aura read, the results were almost identical (between 38 and 40%) for people who defined themselves as religious, non-religious or atheist.



The implication is that we all believe in a not dissimilar range of tangible and intangible realities. Whether a particular brand of higher consciousness is included in that list (“I believe in God”, “I believe in some sort of higher force”, “I believe in no higher consciousness”) is little more than a detail.
Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that?s not a joke


Atheists are more dedicated to Atheism than the average Christians.
http://www.science20.com/science_an...re_dedicated_atheism_average_christians-70263




“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning...”
― C.S. Lewis

Confused science writer claims that atheists might not exist « Why Evolution Is True

 

[stevevw]

No. You're missing the point. The point is that you accused me of making a stance that I've never taken. I am not Stephen Hawking. I am Euler. I would thank you not to put words in my mouth.

A big person would apologize.

Its funny how atheists can maneuver their position about what they believe. They can argue that there is no evidence for a God till their blue in the face which says to me that they really dont believe there is a God. They may not say there is no God but certainly they argue the point vigorously time and time again. But when someone points out that your position on that also requires a certain amount of faith to state there is no God they then start towing the atheists party line that, oh no I dont say there is no God I am really saying that a god could be possible but the evidence says that this is unlikely.

So one moment they are pretty strong on saying there is no God and the next they revert back to the official atheists position which says they should include the possibility of a god because they dont want to be labeled as having any faith in their position because atheists should show they have any faith. So its a little hard to pin them down on which position they really take. But when you actually check out what they say it indicates that they are also saying that they dont believe there is a God and their position is a bit all over the place. There are many atheists who take a stand that there is no God and are organizing themselves in an almost religious position with certain quotes they all use and many of the characteristics of religion.

Heres what you have said in the past which indicate you believe there is no God.

Someone had posted this reply in a post.
Perhaps my thinking played a part as well. I just can't find the faith to believe that this world was created by chance.

Your response. Euler
Then please don't. Because it wasn't.
Thats a pretty straight forward and definite reply stating that there is no God or supernatural force's and they didn't create anything.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Its funny how atheists can manouver their position about what they believe. They can argue that there is no evidence for a God till their blue in the face which says to me that they really dont believe there is a God. They may not say there is no God but certainly they argue the point vigorously time and time again. But when someone says your position on that also requires a certain amount of faith to state there is no God they then start towing the atheists party line that oh no I dont say there is no God I am really saying that a god could be possible but the evidence says that this is unlikely. So one moment they are pretty strong on saying there is no God and the next they revert back to the official atheists position which says they should include the possibility of a god because they dont want to be labeled as having any faith in their position. So its a little hard to pin them down on which position they really take. But when you actually check out what they say it indicates that they are also saying that they dont believe there is a God.

It's not that hard at all. You just ask them.

Heres what you have said in the past which indicate you believe there is no God.


Perhaps my thinking played a part as well. I just can't find the faith to believe that this world was created by chance.

Your response. Euler
Then please don't. Because it wasn't.
Thats a pretty straight forward and definite reply stating that there is no God and He didn't He didn't create anything.

What? No it isn't.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Confused science writer claims that atheists might not exist « Why Evolution Is True

Wow, the stupidity of Vittachi is difficult to bear.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[stevevw]

It's not that hard at all. You just ask them.

Ah thats the thing. When you ask them they will say one thing. But check out what they have said in the past and its something different again. Some are very careful not to say things that may show that they are taking any particular stand about there being no God or gods. But like Hawkins some atheists do have this position. So its not always a case of that they just dont believe in a belief about God. They can also actually take the position that there are actually no gods. But they dont want to be pinned with the hard line position because then they are taking the same religious view about their own position with their atheism as they accuse Christians of doing.

What? No it isn't.

The conversation was about God creating things. The reply wasn't the evidence indicates that God or a deity created things but I'm not ruling that out. The reply was NO HE DIDN'T create everything. That to me is taking a definite position that God didn't create everything. That is a belief based on faith because a person cant provide the evidence that He didn't create everything as well.

 

[stevevw]

Wow, the stupidity of Vittachi is difficult to bear.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Why criticize the person and not give a constructive reply as to why this cannot be possible. The article was actually done by Graham Norton and if you read it its quoting that a number of scientists have come to this conclusion. The site Nature actually had a study done by scientists. the actual author is Pascal Boyer is in the Departments of Psychology and Anthropology, Washington University in St Louis, Missouri, USA.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7216/pdf/4551038a.pdf

Vittachi is only reporting what scientists have said. There are a number of scientists who are now thinking along these lines about the metaphysical. More and more research is pointing towards these directions. They are not stating that there is a God but are saying that there maybe some support for other dimensions that exist outside the physical based on some of the evidence they are seeing. Even main stream science is saying this in a round about way with multi universe and hologram theories.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Why critize the person and not give a constructive reply as to why this cannot be possible.

The article writer did a perfectly adequate job of that. There wasn't much for me to add.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Ah thats the thing. When you ask them they will say one thing. But check out what they have said in the past and its something different again. Some are very careful not to say things that may show that they are taking any particular stand about there being no God or gods. But like Hawkins some atheists do have this position. So its not always a case of that they just dont believe in a belief about God. They can also actually take the position that there are actually no gods. But they dont want to be pinned with the hard line position because then they are taking the same religious view about their own position with their atheism as they accuse Christians of doing.

I think you mean "Dawkins," who doesn't take the position you claim.

The conversation was about God creating things. The reply wasn't the evidence indicates that God or a deity created things but I'm not ruling that out. The reply was NO HE DIDN'T create everything. That to me is taking a definite position that God didn't create everything. That is a belief based on faith because a person cant provide the evidence that He didn't create everything as well.

The reply, from you posted, seems to be that the universe wasn't created by chance.

Why critize the person and not give a constructive reply as to why this cannot be possible. There are a number of scientists who are now thinking along these lines about the metaphysical. More and more research is pointing towards these directions. They are not stating that there is a God but are saying that there maybe some support for other dimensions that exist outside the physical based on some of the evince they are seeing. Even main stream science is saying this in a round about way with multi universe and hologram theories.

No, woo peddlers are saying that.

 

[Euler]

Its funny how atheists can maneuver their position about what they believe.

Oh boy, did you really say that !? You belong to a religion which, using the SAME holy book, has over 40,000 different sects! And you claim that WE manoeuvre the facts?? That's the best one I've heard all week!

They can argue that there is no evidence for a God till their blue in the face which says to me that they really dont believe there is a God.

Absolutely correct. I don't believe there is a God. Now, see if you can follow this:

That is completely different to saying that there is no God.

Did you understand that? Can you see the difference? Let me give you an example:

My son is supposed to do his homework first thing after he comes home from school. I see him out in the street riding his bike. I don't believe that he has done his homework. I'm pretty confident that he hasn't. But, is that the same as me saying that I know he didn't?

Getting it yet?

Now, be the big person and apologize for falsely claiming what I said.

Heres what you have said in the past which indicate you believe there is no God.

Someone had posted this reply in a post.
Perhaps my thinking played a part as well. I just can't find the faith to believe that this world was created by chance.

Ummm, I'm not sure how to respond without deeply criticising your intelligence. Let's just say that that comment is talking about whether or not "chance" played a part in the formation of the world. Newsflash: you don't have to be an atheist to take that position!

Your response. Euler
Then please don't. Because it wasn't.
Thats a pretty straight forward and definite reply stating that there is no God or supernatural force's and they didn't create anything.

I'm sorry, but you wouldn't know what "definite" was even if it jumped up and bit you on the nose.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Vittachi is only reporting what scientists have said.

It sounds to me like Vittachi is drawing his own conclusions and passing them along, and not merely passing along someone else's judgments.

There are a number of scientists who are now thinking along these lines about the metaphysical. More and more research is pointing towards these directions. They are not stating that there is a God but are saying that there maybe some support for other dimensions that exist outside the physical based on some of the evidence they are seeing. Even main stream science is saying this in a round about way with multi universe and hologram theories.

Scientists are not saying that there are "other dimensions outside the physical". Even multiverse hypotheses are not a "round about way" of supporting religion-style supernatural beliefs.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[selfinflikted]

All I was saying was that some atheists who state there isnt a God are actually having a form of faith because they have no proof that their position is true.

I'd just like to comment on this. I don't understand why some people think that to lack belief in god, or to even make the statement that there is no god, requires faith. It does not. It is not a faith-based position. It is the default position. To believe there is a god, however, does require faith because there is no evidence aside from religious texts and personal "feelings" that one exists. The burden of "proof" is on those that make the positive statement - not on those who lack belief. Atheism requires no faith, theism, conversely, does.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Its funny how atheists can maneuver their position about what they believe.

This from a religion in which every single adherent seems to have their own view regarding their god. Not surprisingly, their god agrees with what any given adherent believes.

But when someone points out that your position on that also requires a certain amount of faith to state there is no God they then start towing the atheists party line that, oh no I dont say there is no God I am really saying that a god could be possible but the evidence says that this is unlikely.

Not sure what's so hard to understand. Let me explain:

Do you believe in Santa Claus? If not, then you are an atheist in regards to Santa. Does that take faith? Does it require you to follow a party line?

 

[Hetta]

This from a religion in which every single adherent seems to have their own view regarding their god. Not surprisingly, their god agrees with what any given adherent believes.

I recognize myself in that description.

 

[stevevw]

double message as edits not working properly. I didn't separate posters comments. But when you hit the edit button it doesn't bring up posters replies. Others say they are having similar problems.

 

[stevevw]

This from a religion in which every single adherent seems to have their own view regarding their god. Not surprisingly, their god agrees with what any given adherent believes.

Thats has little to do with moral truths. In amongst those different religions will be the morals. Those morals like the morals of secular society are the same but are then rationalized and justified according to how they see them. It doesn't mean those views are correct but this is where the differences come in. So if you take killing the moral truth is dont kill. But people will justify killing for different reasons. You then have to determine whether that is justified to a truth. I believe God through Jesus is that truth. But regardless I believe we all know that truth as it is written in our hearts which our conscience will either excuse or accuse us.

So when someone says they can kill in the name of God you have to check that out. Just because they say that doesn't mean its correct. As with ISIS they are not justified. First who said their religion wasn't made by a nutter like Charlie Manson. We have to determine that. 2nd look at what they are actually doing. When you look at even what their religion says about killing they are not even following that. They are killing indiscriminately.

If someone kills someone in self defense its not another allowable version of the moral to kill. Its a fair justification under the same moral. The same with the death penalty though many will say this is not justified. The same with assisted suicide except this is more complicated and needs to be carefully considered. But the point is nobody is having a new set of moral and there are different morals. Its all the same moral of thou shall not kill. Its just justified or unjustified killing under that same moral. This is the same for all morals and some will be very hard to determine. But just because they are doesn't mean there is a different sets of morals.

People can rationalize behaviors being ok and corrupt and even justify wrong behaviors into being OK. But there has to be an ultimate truth to all this or we will get lost in a mountain of allowing many things without any clear criteria as to what is right and what is wrong. What is acceptable and what is unacceptable. A lot of the times its got to do with self and rights over others. What an individual wants and has the right to do rather than what is good for others and society in the long run. This is where I believe God through Jesus is the ultimate truth.
John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Not sure what's so hard to understand. Let me

explain:

Do you believe in Santa Claus? If not, then you are an atheist in regards to Santa. Does that take faith? Does it require you to follow a party line?

Thats fair enough, but I am talking about when someone comes out and says there is no God like they are staing something for sure. That is a hardline part of atheism that some can take. That requires some faith. IN some ways people that are taking this position are actually forming a sort of religion for anti God and we can see this is the way they organize themselves. Some go around having meetings like a church and preaching the message.

 

[Euler]

Thats has little to do with moral truths. In amongst those different religions will be the morals. Those morals like the morals of secular society are the same but are then rationalized and justified according to how they see them.

Then they aren't "the same"! And this is why it keeps being pointed out to you that NO-ONE takes their moral code from what the Bible says any more. You and I and everyone else makes our own decisions as to what 'good' moral behaviour is and if it doesn't match exactly what the Bible says, then religious people will modify what they see in the Bible!

So when someone says they can kill in the name of God you have to check that out. Just because they say that doesn't mean its correct.

But, of course, it was ALWAYS 'correct' when it happened in the Bible, right? It was only 'wrong' in all those other holy books!

If someone kills someone in self defense its not another allowable version of the moral to kill. Its a fair justification under the same moral. The same with the death penalty though many will say this is not justified. The same with assisted suicide except this is more complicated and needs to be carefully considered. But the point is nobody is having a new set of moral and there are different morals. Its all the same moral of thou shall not kill. Its just justified or unjustified killing under that same moral. This is the same for all morals and some will be very hard to determine. But just because they are doesn't mean there is a different sets of morals.

And who does that "determining"?

HUMAN BEINGS do! Human beings decide whether or not a killing is justified. And that determination changes from place to place and from time to time.

We used to consider it 'morally justifiable' to put people to death for blasphemy. And we used to do it in the public square. We no longer consider that to be morally acceptable. Morals change, because they are SUBJECTIVE in nature!

Thats fair enough, but I am talking about when someone comes out and says there is no God like they are staing something for sure. That is a hardline part of atheism that some can take

Very, very few. That is known as 'strong' atheism and it is a position taken by only a minority of atheists. It is NOT accurate to portray the bulk of atheists that way.

So, I'm still waiting for you to apologize for repeatedly insisting that that is my position.

That requires some faith. IN some ways people that are taking this position are actually forming a sort of religion for anti God and we can see this is the way they organize themselves. Some go around having meetings like a church and preaching the message.

Ummm...Boy Scouts also organize and have meetings. They also preach a message. Is that a religion too?