A comment beyond belief?

[ianb321red]

So you could argue that from a Christian viewpoint it's better to abort a fetus, so that they go straight to heaven? I guess the same would go for murder, as you cannot kill the soul and a believing soul goes to heaven.

I did actually say that no one knows for sure regarding infant salvation, but anyway clearly not given that one of the 10 commandments is thou shall not kill

 

[Paradoxum]

Dear Paradoxum, please try to get with it,

You're the one talking nonsense, or being unclear, not me.

you wrote, ".....don,t Think there is anything wrong with aborting them."

I know... and what's your point? What did what you said have to do with that?

 

[Robban]

You're the one talking nonsense, or being unclear, not me.



I know... and what's your point? What did what you said have to do with that?

I did not say you were talking nonsense.

What more is to say?

The thread being about an opinion given by someone to a woman,

Your opinion was, "I don,t Think you can say that they "should" be aborted,

but I don,t Think there,s anything wrong with aborting them."

So, was this a disapproval followed up with an approval?

Before prenatal scanning, it was common with sterilization,

And the thinking Went so far as extermination, we don,t have to be reminded of that.

Remember this thread is about abortion of DS diagnozed.


Sometimes not having knowledge of the future can truly be a blessing.

 

[Paradoxum]

I did not say you were talking nonsense.

What more is to say?

I don't know what your point was in the first place.

The thread being about an opinion given by someone to a woman,

Your opinion was, "I don,t Think you can say that they "should" be aborted,

but I don,t Think there,s anything wrong with aborting them."

So, was this a disapproval followed up with an approval?

It's saying that it's okay to abort them, but it's also okay not to abort them. It's up to the mother.

Before prenatal scanning, it was common with sterilization,

What was common with sterilization?

And the thinking Went so far as extermination, we don,t have to be reminded of that.

People wanted to kill born people with DS? That's what you mean?

Remember this thread is about abortion of DS diagnozed.

Sometimes not having knowledge of the future can truly be a blessing.

I think it's good to know. You can choose to have an abortion or not.

 

[Robban]

I don't know what your point was in the first place.



It's saying that it's okay to abort them, but it's also okay not to abort them. It's up to the mother.



What was common with sterilization?



People wanted to kill born people with DS? That's what you mean?



I think it's good to know. You can choose to have an abortion or not.

You relly mean you know nothing of sterilization?
You really mean you know nothing of extermination of not only those with DS

but homosexuals crippled mentally ill unemployed the list goes on.

I asked you if there was a difference between exterminating them Before they were born or after they were born.

Who has the authority to decide who is to live and who is not?

How long Before there will be abortions for the least flaw, we all have flaws,

It does not solve anything.

 

[tonybeer]

Abortion is the removal of a Fetus from the womb before it is viable. Up until the point that the Fetus is viable it is reliant on the Mother for life. It is therefore the right of the Mother whether they choose to continue with the pregnancy or not. This is why there is a cut off at the point the Fetus is considered viable. If you remove a Fetus after viability you are giving Birth.

It is the Mother's choice whether to continue with any pregnancy or not, unless you want to give the Fetus extra rights that you do not grant normal humans.

If am entirely reliant on another human's body for life, it is their choice whether they wish to continue granting me use of their body or not, even if refusing means that I will die.

There is a massive difference between aborting a Fetus, and exterminating a live human being.

 

[Paradoxum]

You relly mean you know nothing of sterilization?
You really mean you know nothing of extermination of not only those with DS

I don't know what YOU mean. Why are you talking about sterilization?

but homosexuals crippled mentally ill unemployed the list goes on.

I'm not in favour of killing such people.

I asked you if there was a difference between exterminating them Before they were born or after they were born.

I think it's okay to kill them before birth, and a bit after birth. Not by the time they are toddlers.

Who has the authority to decide who is to live and who is not?

The government has the authority to legalise it, and the mother/ parents have the authority to choose to have them killed.

How long Before there will be abortions for the least flaw, we all have flaws,

What's wrong with that? I'm okay with people haven't an abortion for almost any reason.

 

[Robban]

I don't know what YOU mean. Why are you talking about sterilization?



I'm not in favour of killing such people.



I think it's okay to kill them before birth, and a bit after birth. Not by the time they are toddlers.



The government has the authority to legalise it, and the mother/ parents have the authority to choose to have them killed.



What's wrong with that? I'm okay with people haven't an abortion for almost any reason.

Right or wrong,
the thread is not about abortion in general.

It is more about selectiveness, good or bad, right or wrong.

In Sweden alone there was compulsory sterilisation between 1934-2012,
the goal being, racial purity, public Health, reducing public expenditure and anti-social behaviour.

Forced sterilisation was seen as important in the countries crime prevention
program.

Many were put into asylems not because they were mentally ill Always, but because they were poor.

In and with technology today so can some things be foreseen,

Maybe even now they can say for example, this Child will only live 8 yrs, do you want it?

Right or wrong, good or bad, to me it seems pretty scary,
but I,m not of the supersonic era exactly,

So, I say, scary.

 

[Paradoxum]

Right or wrong,
the thread is not about abortion in general.

I know... I've given my opinion of the specific issue.

It is more about selectiveness, good or bad, right or wrong.

In Sweden alone there was compulsory sterilisation between 1934-2012,
the goal being, racial purity, public Health, reducing public expenditure and anti-social behaviour.

Forced sterilisation was seen as important in the countries crime prevention
program.

Many were put into asylems not because they were mentally ill Always, but because they were poor.

And I'm against that.

In and with technology today so can some things be foreseen,

Maybe even now they can say for example, this Child will only live 8 yrs, do you want it?

No.

Right or wrong, good or bad, to me it seems pretty scary,
but I,m not of the supersonic era exactly,

So, I say, scary.

I don't see the problem.

 

[Robban]

I know... I've given my opinion of the specific issue.



And I'm against that.



No.



I don't see the problem.

Yes you have given your opinion,

it is an eyeopener to hear what others Think.

Though, for example if Mrs Jones down the road wants to have an abortion.
it has nothing to do with me, it is not my buisness.

Generally I don,t Think of these things, because, well, I don,t.

 

[Paradoxum]

Yes you have given your opinion,

it is an eyeopener to hear what others Think.

Though, for example if Mrs Jones down the road wants to have an abortion.
it has nothing to do with me, it is not my buisness.

Generally I don,t Think of these things, because, well, I don,t.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with what other people want to do with their lives.

 

[Simonline]

Atheism isn't a worldview. It deals with one topic only, whether a God exists. There is no Church of Atheism, with Dawkins as the leader. Atheists are rarely organised, in the way many religious people are. The vast majority are just people who don't believe the claims that religions make. They can be pro-choice or pro-life (just as Christians are).

I personally wouldn't say that aborting a Down's fetus is immoral, nor would I say that it would be immoral to carry it to term. I'm not sure that with these kinds of things there is a moral answer.

Aborting any human foetus (Downs Syndrome or otherwise) is not only immoral, it's murder (Ex.20:13). I suggest that you obtain and read a copy of the late Dr. Francis A. Schaeffer's book (co-authored with Dr. Chris Everett-Koop) Whatever Happened to the Human Race? http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happened-Human-Revised-Edition/dp/0891072918 or watch the dvd of the same http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happened-Human-Rac/dp/B001KNQ1V8

Simonline

 

[Simonline]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with what other people want to do with their lives.

Does that include their having an irresistible desire to murder you or one of your loved ones?!

Moral relativism is a social cancer that is making great headway in utterly destroying human society...magnificently aided and abetted by both the ignorant and the stupid.

Simonline

 

[abysmul]

Hey, survival of the fittest and all that. Right? Kill all the unborn babies with Downs and eventually we'll evolve to no longer make babies with Downs. Right? Or something...

 

[Oafman]

Aborting any human foetus (Downs Syndrome or otherwise) is not only immoral, it's murder (Ex.20:13).

Murder is a legal term. As long as abortion is not against the law, it is not murder

 

[Paradoxum]

Does that include their having an irresistible desire to murder you or one of your loved ones?!

Nope. Violating others would be wrong.

Moral relativism is a social cancer that is making great headway in utterly destroying human society...magnificently aided and abetted by both the ignorant and the stupid.

Simonline

I'm not a moral relativist though. I believe in morality.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe in morality, but I don't think Dawkins is massively wrong.

I don't think you can say that they 'should' be aborted, but I don't think there's anything wrong with aborting them. I don't think it's wrong to have an abortion for most reasons.

Is there any point at which you would not kill a baby for whatever convenience happens to come to mind?

This was a question I asked of a communist Chinese associate a few years ago and he freely admitted that he would kill the baby while it was yet unborn - but the same baby 5 minutes later - if born I would not kill.'

For him - killing babies was all about "where are they located".

I thought it was sad that atheist chinese communists thought of life that way.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Paradoxum]

Is there any point at which you would not kill a baby for whatever convenience happens to come to mind?

Do you mean baby or fetus?

I don't think having an abortion is generally wrong. Having an abortion because you'd rather a boy than a girl (for cultural reasons) seems sexist, so I wouldn't be okay with that.

I'm not sure what I would actually do in all circumstances.

This was a question I asked of a communist Chinese associate a few years ago and he freely admitted that he would kill the baby while it was yet unborn - but the same baby 5 minutes later - if born I would not kill.'

For him - killing babies was all about "where are they located".

I thought it was sad that atheist chinese communists thought of life that way.

For me, location doesn't make a moral difference to me. It might make a personal difference... or it might not.

 

[tonybeer]

Again (sigh) - Abortion is the removal of the Fetus from the womb. It will result in the death of the Fetus if the Fetus is not viable, but will not if the Fetus is viable.

This is the reason we have the 20 or so week cutoff.

A Fetus does not get special rights over the Mothers body. It is her body, and she should be able to decide whether she provides services to another organism or not.

If this were not the case, then we could force people to donate kidneys etc. If my neighbour is dying, and the only way we can survive is my attaching his blood supply to mine, it is my choice whether I continue to provide this service or not, even if not doing so results in his death.

As far as I'm concerned it is not murder if I choose not to provide this service. Neither is it Murder to remove a Fetus from a Womb.


No-one has yet said why a Fetus gets extra rights that other humans do not.


ps As an aside the body actually kills many Fetuses on it's own (about 15-20%). The body decides whether the Fetus has a genetic abnomality or not, and will kill the Fetus if these are too great.

 

[Danny777]

No-one has yet said why a Fetus gets extra rights that other humans do not.

The fetus (I'll call it a baby) does not have extra rights - it has the same rights as everyone else...