Arminianism is untenable

[janxharris]

C. It didn't do anything. It's was an inanimate object. It certainly didn't satisfy God's wrath (we are discussing propitiation, in case you forgot).

Okay, but hasn't Jesus confused us (if you are right about your understanding of the propitiation) by choosing such an analogy? The correlation between source and analogue is pretty straight forward so one can legitimately infer the provisional nature of the cross.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, but hasn't Jesus confused us (if you are right about your understanding of the propitiation) by choosing such an analogy? The correlation between source and analogue is pretty straight forward so one can legitimately infer the provisional nature of the cross.

Just because you are confused doesn't make the analogy wrong.

And please explain how any of this relates to propitiation.

 

[Hammster]

So John the Baptist only witnessed to the elect? No, he witnessed to whomever so that they might believe. An exclusion from the foreordination to eternal life means one cannot do so.

I never suggested the Nephilim would benefit from John the Baptist's witnessing.

Why did you emphasize "all"?

 

[janxharris]

Just because you are confused doesn't make the analogy wrong.

That does not address the clarity of Jesus' chosen analogy.

And please explain how any of this relates to propitiation.

Since justification is by faith then God is propitiated when we turn and look and believe. If the propitiation occurred irrespective of such then those for whom Jesus died would be born justified.

 

[Hammster]

That does not address the clarity of Jesus' chosen analogy.



Since justification is by faith then God is propitiated when we turn and look and believe. If the propitiation occurred irrespective of such then those for whom Jesus died would be born justified.

John says that Christ is the propitiation. But apparently you think you are good enough to do it yourself.

 

[janxharris]

John says that Christ is the propitiation. But apparently you think you are good enough to do it yourself.

When has an Arminian ever said we do it by ourselves?

 

[Hammster]

When has an Arminian ever said we do it by ourselves?

You just did. You said your turning and believing satisfied God's wrath.

 

[janxharris]

You just did. You said your turning and believing satisfied God's wrath.

But you know that I am a synergist.

 

[Hammster]

But you know that I am a synergist.

I've never met a synergist who has said that they can satisfy God's wrath with their obedience.

 

[Hammster]

Well, that was fun.

 

[Josephus]

Propitiation isn't offered. It's the satisfaction of God's wrath. So it makes no sense to say it can be offered or refused.

An apple is just an apple, agreed, however an apple can be given. I fail to understand the logic that "it makes no sense to say propitiation can be offered." Perhaps you can lay out the logical proof that it makes "no sense?"

 

[Hammster]

An apple is just an apple, agreed, however an apple can be given. I fail to understand the logic that "it makes no sense to say propitiation can be offered." Perhaps you can lay out the logical proof that it makes "no sense?"

Christ being a propitiation isn't something that is given. It is an act that Christ performed on the cross. He satisfied God's wrath. It's not a regressive wrath where the more people believe, the less angry He is.

But let's say that propitiation could be offered. What does that mean? If God's wrath is already satisfied, then what is there to be offered? If it hasn't, then it's not propitiation that's being offered.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Christ being a propitiation isn't something that is given. It is an act that Christ performed on the cross. He satisfied God's wrath. It's not a regressive wrath where the more people believe, the less angry He is.

But let's say that propitiation could be offered. What does that mean? If God's wrath is already satisfied, then what is there to be offered? If it hasn't, then it's not propitiation that's being offered.

Are you saying that propitiation can't be rejected?

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying that propitiation can't be rejected?

I'm saying it's nonsensical. If God's wrath has been satisfied by Someone else, how do you reject that?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

I'm saying it's nonsensical. If God's wrath has been satisfied by Someone else, how do you reject that?

There are conditions on God's offer:

John 15

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned......

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

 

[Hammster]

There are conditions on God's offer:

John 15

5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned......

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

That has nothing to do with propitiation.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

That has nothing to do with propitiation.

So you don't believe Jesus is God?

 

[Hammster]

So you don't believe Jesus is God?

Please don't flame.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Please don't flame.

It is not a flame, it is a rhetorical question to help you understand the issue.

Propitiation is appeasement. We appease God by remaining in his love.

Your claim that the passage I presented had nothing to do with propitiation didn't make sense given that you believe that Jesus is God.

 

[Hammster]

It is not a flame, it is a rhetorical question to help you understand the issue.

Propitiation is appeasement. We appease God by remaining in his love.

Your claim that the passage I presented had nothing to do with propitiation didn't make sense given that you believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus is the propitiation. See 1 John 2:2.