Do creationists accept the evolution of plants?

[Kylie]

A very common one: farmers should let their land "rest" for a whole year for every six years of use.

We do not care about that at all today. Thus we have many problems due to not obeying that. If you think about this law carefully, you will see an amazing amount of applications included in it.

And since that is farmland cultivated by humans, how is that a natural resource?

Where are the passages that say, "Don't overfish?" "Don't chop down all the trees?" "Protect biodiversity?" Why didn't God tell us to do any of that stuff? Coz, y'know, it seems fairly important to me!

 

[Split Rock]

I do not believe plants evolve. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

And we are still apes, primates, mammals, tetrapods, vertebrates, animals, etc., like our ancestors. You cannot escape your ancestry.

If the plants have been around as long as "they" say they have been like the animals, then why are their former lesser evolved existence still around? They would be all subjective to whatever caused the evolution of the one species to another and so they should be all evolving together.

But they are not, obviously. Why? Because the only "evolution" that is going on is having a new species of a rose but still a rose because it is not in its genetic makeup to vary any other way than to be a rose.

The same would be true for animals.

Then the subject of cross species comes up where in this "new" animal, they can no longer reproduce for that libe of new animal to continue, and yet it has been declared by educated evolutionists that evolution does not happen by hybridization.

Okay then. That leaves no way for evolution to happen when the cause of it is unknown and science is assuming that there is a link between variety of plants as they do with variety of animals.

This is a lot of world salad. I won't even try to figure out what it means.

"Science" is unwilling to entertain the notion that everything was present like the porcupine with the dinosaurs as they existed with man as he did with the apes by the sixth day of creation even though the laws of science supports that "fable" more than the fable of the evolution theory.

The fossil record says otherwise.
Our genetic material says otherwise.

The 1st law of thermodynamics that states nothing can be created from nothing nor destroyed, then where is that extra genetic information is going to come from to be added to a living organism's DNA? Nothing?

That is not what the first law of thermodynamics says. read it again.

So that is why we can observe the Law of Biogenesis where an ape will always be an ape just as a rose will always be a rose. You can have a variety of apes and a variety of roses, even something not seen before; ( but that does not mean it had never existed before ) but an ape will always be an ape just as a rose will always be a rose because there is no way for extra genetic information to add itself to a given DNA.

The first part is correct (see above), but the last part is false. Insertion events and mutations can add DNA to chromosomes.

Unless you are a mad scientist, but then that points to intelligent design.

Nothing points to intelligent design. If it did, there would be an intelligent design theory we could test. Where is it?

 

[stevevw]

People are driven to sacrifice their lives for lies (or legend) all the time. All it takes is a belief that it is true. Suicide bombers give their lives, cult followers give their lives, and as far as exploding quickly, why not the Mormon church? It's only been around 150 years, has a huge following, and is one of the richest churches in the world.

Popularity and martyrdom are not legitimate determinations for veracity.

Suicide bombers take out innocents at the same time and this shows that what they are doing is wrong. They even take out their own and there is no distinction in their extreme acts. The same with cult followers and this is a little the same for the Japanese kamikaze pilots in WW2.

But what we find with Christians is that they either are sacrificing their lives for the good of people or for their beliefs in Christ. This has been a common theme for over 2000 years. The old argument that they have all been fooled and deluded seems a little shallow here as you cant say that everyone involved is like that. Many are coherent and sane people. Those who sacrifice their lives for the good of others in their duties seem to be genuine people. Many come from normal backgrounds and dont display any sings of being deluded in any other area of their lives. Quite often the proof is in the pudding and the results of their dedication can be seen with lives changed for the better.

The Mormons is no comparison to the early church and the continued growth over 2000 years. The early church grew fairly quickly and became the dominate belief in the Roman empire. An empire that was dedicated to wiping it out. Soon after Jesus was Crucified and was claimed to have risen and seen by many was when the followers were willing to die for their belief and were empowered to go out and preach the Gospel. It was like a flash point where the power of Christ had affected many and changed people to show great courage for their conviction.

But I agree all this is no evidence for proving that it was genuine. Still it seems something happened that changed the course of history from the point of the cross of Jesus until now.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Jesus isn't forsaking Himself and the outburst as you say would be something that any man would do in that situation. He prayed to His father in the garden of Gethsemane. His father said He was pleased with Him and Gave him so that we may be saved. Their relationship is all through the new testament showing that the Father and the Son are two separate entities.

But Jesus had all the qualities of God and God all the qualities of Jesus. The qualities of Jesus are what created everything and were there before everything. In the beginning was the word and the word was God. Jesus is the word and the word was made flesh. The trinity of God is a hard concept for us to understand but God the father and Jesus His son are two separate entities.

But the important thing for us is that Jesus was God in the flesh. He came so that we could know the qualities of God. So God came from the seemly distant and obscure place we think is heaven down to us so that we could then know of God and not be wondering or having all these guesses as to what he was like. The other side of this was that Jesus as God gave up His power and position to become man so that He took on the sin of man. So each could know what the other was. So even though Jesus was God He didn't use any powers to save himself but as a man with all His weaknesses and sinful nature was obedient to God. This showed that we can also be the same. So accepting Christ means we crucify our sinful natures with Christs death and we are raised with Him to become a new person with a Godly nature which is the spirit of God.

Jesus and god could not have had all the same qualities as each other, otherwise both would have to be capable of being mortally wounded by humans.

 

[stevevw]

Jesus and god could not have had all the same qualities as each other, otherwise both would have to be capable of being mortally wounded by humans.

God sent Jesus so that we could be saved. Jesus is the only one who took on the nature of man. So he became flesh and could die. God the Father is in Heaven and cannot be mortally wounded by anyone. When Jesus rose from the dead He defeated sin and the grave so He can no longer be mortally wounded either.

 

[PsychoSarah]

God sent Jesus so that we could be saved. Jesus is the only one who took on the nature of man. So he became flesh and could die. God the Father is in Heaven and cannot be mortally wounded by anyone. When Jesus rose from the dead He defeated sin and the grave so He can no longer be mortally wounded either.

Then they don't have all the same qualities as each other

 

[stevevw]

Then they don't have all the same qualities as each other

Well God is not man and man is not God. But the connections were made between the two when Jesus became man. God knows and understands what and who we are. He doesn't have to become us to know that after all He created us. But the whole idea of Him sending His son to us and taking on our flesh nature was to make that bridge and defeat sin and death so that we could be saved from that sinful flesh nature that bound us. We could see God in Jesus and Jesus defeated that fleshly nature when He rose form the dead. That allowed us to also defeat our sinful nature and take on a Godly nature. The only time Christ was a man was when He was here walking this earth. Now He is sitting at the right hand of God in all His Glory.

 

[46AND2]

Suicide bombers take out innocents at the same time and this shows that what they are doing is wrong. They even take out their own and there is no distinction in their extreme acts. The same with cult followers and this is a little the same for the Japanese kamikaze pilots in WW2.

But what we find with Christians is that they either are sacrificing their lives for the good of people or for their beliefs in Christ. This has been a common theme for over 2000 years. The old argument that they have all been fooled and deluded seems a little shallow here as you cant say that everyone involved is like that. Many are coherent and sane people. Those who sacrifice their lives for the good of others in their duties seem to be genuine people. Many come from normal backgrounds and dont display any sings of being deluded in any other area of their lives. Quite often the proof is in the pudding and the results of their dedication can be seen with lives changed for the better.

The Mormons is no comparison to the early church and the continued growth over 2000 years. The early church grew fairly quickly and became the dominate belief in the Roman empire. An empire that was dedicated to wiping it out. Soon after Jesus was Crucified and was claimed to have risen and seen by many was when the followers were willing to die for their belief and were empowered to go out and preach the Gospel. It was like a flash point where the power of Christ had affected many and changed people to show great courage for their conviction.

But I agree all this is no evidence for proving that it was genuine. Still it seems something happened that changed the course of history from the point of the cross of Jesus until now.

The "morality" of the different martyrdom scenarios is utterly inconsequential. It has no bearing, whatsoever, on whether or not the belief they are dying for is true or not. Besides which, morality is subjective. What may be a moral sacrifice to you, is not necessarily what is a moral sacrifice for someone of different beliefs. You only hold their sacrifice in higher esteem because you share their beliefs and sense of morality.

Being coherent and sane does not preclude one from being deluded.

The speed and extent at which a religion grows, while a feather in it's cap, has no bearing on veracity. If a thousand false religions are created, it is inevitable that one of them will grow and reach faster and/or farther than the others. The strength of Christianity, while impressive, does nothing to intimate supernatural origin.

 

[rockytopva]

Ignorance has always been religions best friend.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”. - Albert Einstein

 

[rockytopva]

You think you're being smart but you are just making things worse, they feed it to you and you accept it,
you will accept everything they feed you without question because you know no better.

Try checking just for once if what they have told you is true, try it just once,
but if you want to keep believing as you do, don't check.

These are all lies!Look at my web site at youtube.com/rockytopva and tell me how many doctrinal teachings you see. This web site is ready to roll over 2 million views and is doing great!

A true man of God follows the Holy Spirit.

RW Schambach - What is a Man of God? - YouTube

 

[rockytopva]

As I said, you will swallow everything they feed you, without question, they're not the actions of a smart person.

So did satan deceive a third of the angels and Eve into the apple.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

So did satan deceive a third of the angels and Eve into the apple.

Short answer: No.

Slightly longer answer: You are describing a fairy story involving fictitious supernatural characters in an allegorical plot. You might as well ask if Gotham city really had to be saved from the Joker by Batman.

 

[rockytopva]

As I said, you will swallow everything they feed you, without question, they're not the actions of a smart person.
I thought it best to use the word 'smart'.

My words to those who try to lure me away from God...

American woman, stay away from me
American woman, mama, let me be
Don't come a-hangin' around my door
I don't wanna see your face no more
I got more important things to do
Than spend my time growin' old with you
Now woman, I said stay away
American woman, listen what I say

American woman, get away from me
American woman, mama, let me be
Don't come a-knockin' around my door
Don't wanna see your shadow no more
Coloured lights can hypnotize
Sparkle someone else's eyes
Now woman, I said get away
American woman, listen what I say, hey

American woman, said get away
American woman, listen what I say
Don't come a-hangin' around my door
Don't wanna see your face no more
I don't need your war machines
I don't need your ghetto scenes
Coloured lights can hypnotize
Sparkle someone else's eyes
Now woman, get away from me
American woman, mama, let me be

Go, gotta get away, gotta get away
Now go go go
I'm gonna leave you, woman
Gonna leave you, woman
Bye-bye
Bye-bye
Bye-bye
Bye-bye
You're no good for me
I'm no good for you
Gonna look you right in the eye
Tell you what I'm gonna do
You know I'm gonna leave
You know I'm gonna go
You know I'm gonna leave
You know I'm gonna go, woman
I'm gonna leave ya, woman
Goodbye, American woman...

 

[stevevw]

The "morality" of the different martyrdom scenarios is utterly inconsequential. It has no bearing, whatsoever, on whether or not the belief they are dying for is true or not. Besides which, morality is subjective. What may be a moral sacrifice to you, is not necessarily what is a moral sacrifice for someone of different beliefs. You only hold their sacrifice in higher esteem because you share their beliefs and sense of morality.

Being coherent and sane does not preclude one from being deluded.

The speed and extent at which a religion grows, while a feather in it's cap, has no bearing on veracity. If a thousand false religions are created, it is inevitable that one of them will grow and reach faster and/or farther than the others. The strength of Christianity, while impressive, does nothing to intimate supernatural origin.

So you've managed to rationalized all the achievements of Christianity down to nothing out of the ordinary, well done. Those arguments begin to sound like scientist rationalization about our universe being so finely tuned. Its nothing special because there a million other universes out there and one of them is bound to be just right for life as we know it.

 

[46AND2]

So you've rationalized all the achievements of Christianity down to nothing out of the ordinary, well done. Those arguments begin to sound like scientist rationalization about our universe being so finely tuned. Its nothing special because there a million other universes out there one of them is bound to be just right for life as we know it.

I never said it was nothing out of the ordinary. Quite the contrary. I think Christianity has remarkable staying power. I just don't think your arguments support it's veracity.

Remarkable? Obviously.

Divine? Undetermined.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

So you've rationalized all the achievements of Christianity down to nothing out of the ordinary, well done.

Well, it's the inevitable result of taking an objective look at it. Clearly you are too emotionally involved to do that.

Those arguments begin to sound like scientist rationalization about our universe being so finely tuned. Its nothing special because there a million other universes out there and one of them is bound to be just right for life as we know it.

It's never occurred to you I suppose that life tunes itself to the environment it finds itself in, not the other way round.

 

[46AND2]

So you've managed to rationalized all the achievements of Christianity down to nothing out of the ordinary, well done. Those arguments begin to sound like scientist rationalization about our universe being so finely tuned. Its nothing special because there a million other universes out there and one of them is bound to be just right for life as we know it.

Also, I don't argue against the "finely tuned" concept because of the immensity of the universe. It's finely tuned for our existence, because anything less than adaptation to whatever environmental constraints exist would lead to our extinction. We HAD to evolve to fit this niche.

 

[EternalDragon]

Oh, I know the argument...it's just utterly illogical.

What part is illogical? That God recreated himself as a mortal human or that both aspects could have been combined into one fleshly body?

 

[stevevw]

I never said it was nothing out of the ordinary. Quite the contrary. I think Christianity has remarkable staying power. I just don't think your arguments support it's veracity.

Remarkable? Obviously.

Divine? Undetermined.

Yes that is always the point I get to with these debates. At first there can be total denial that even anything at all happened. That it was all lies or made up. Its like a total rejection of anything to do with the bible. Then my aim is to just establish that surely some of it must have happened, how can people go to that extent with such a detailed and elaborate hoax. That there is some evidence for at least some of the characters in the bible even for Jesus. The stories are interwoven around real historical places and times and this can be seen in archeology. I think this is because people dont separate the historical events from the divine events claimed in the bible.

But if you take away all the supernatural you can have a pretty good book on the life and times of that era. Even archeologist can use the bible as a guide for their digs. So my main aim is to establish the non supernatural aspects of the bible first. The divine is a separate thing that Christianity is built on and takes a faith to accept it. But still I will point out that if we can accept the historical aspects of the places, people and all the small details of their lives as real then why not what they were talking about. This is where it comes down to trust and whether you believe they were telling the truth or like you were saying whether or not they were deluded. But for so many to be in agreement and speak with such confidence and belief themselves it seems at the very least they believed they were telling the truth. Yet much of what they say seems so coherent, straight forward and matter of fact and something that doesn't seem like that of a deluded person.

 

[stevevw]

Also, I don't argue against the "finely tuned" concept because of the immensity of the universe. It's finely tuned for our existence, because anything less than adaptation to whatever environmental constraints exist would lead to our extinction. We HAD to evolve to fit this niche.

But isn't it also about all those finely tuned aspects came together so that life could happen in the first place. The chances of all those elements being so right all at the same time and in the same place from a random and naturalistic process seems against the odds. Isn't that why scientists have come up with the multi universe theory. That this finely tuned universe is just one of millions of universe that have all slightly different elements and combinations which then makes this one not so special. We just happen to exist in the one that is right because well its right. But in all the other ones there may also be other things happening that aren't so right or maybe that there is no life or there is crazy stuff going on because their physics are just all out of balance. Or there could be another you and me living a different life or we maybe by 12 feet tall or 3 feet wide and all that.