What would it take to disprove atheism?

[Usus Vox Tractus]

If you know what it is you believe and why, you've done philosophy.
If you've done this without knowing that you're doing philosophy, you've probably done it poorly and should consider doing it over.

1 Corinthians 14:15

So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

 

[Eudaimonist]

No thanks, it's not important to understand psycho/philosophical mumblings. Who cares!!!

That is what the Greeks used to do, sit around and psychoanalyze philosophical nonsensical, babble stuff. Boring beyond belief!!!!! My interest is in TRUTH.

Good luck.

BTW, did you know that you are posting on the Philosophy board?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

It makes no sense to me to start off with nothing and to try and explain existence when we know that there is something that we know exists.

Exactly right.

I don't think it is a proper question to ask for a cause of existence. The question denies the primacy of existence. Existence exists and we know it. It doesn't need an explanation. It simply is and it could not have been otherwise.

That is a fair conclusion. One certainly can't ask for a cause of existence, since any cause would itself exist and wouldn't be an answer to the question of what caused existence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Sasquatchit]

Or it's like creationists disbelieving tons of mounting evidence that supports the theory of evolution. You are right. lol

OR

Tons of mounting evidence to support the Creation story along with evidence to support that dinosaurs walked along side man!! Yeah!

 

[Sasquatchit]

I agree completely.

Some people not only can't handle the truth, they manufacture their own truth.

Yep!

 

[Sasquatchit]

Can't handle the fact that most evidence suggests when we die it is the end? Yeah, I can barely handle it myself.

Wow, how sad for you! You remind me of the Sadducees (how Sad-U-cee: they didn't/don't believe what God says either).

 

[znr]

You know...why don't you chill out. Sarah is trying to grasp belief; you would know that if you bothered looking a little deeper instead of allowing yourself to sound like another snooty voice in the wilderness.

Wow, how sad for you! You remind me of the Sadducees (how Sad-U-cee: they didn't/don't believe what God says either).

 

[Sasquatchit]

You know...why don't you chill out. Sarah is trying to grasp belief; you would know that if you bothered looking a little deeper instead of allowing yourself to sound like another snooty voice in the wilderness.

Whoop!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

OR

Tons of mounting evidence to support the Creation story along with evidence to support that dinosaurs walked along side man!! Yeah!

There's more evidence for the Sasquatch than that.

 

[Sasquatchit]

You know...why don't you chill out. Sarah is trying to grasp belief; you would know that if you bothered looking a little deeper instead of allowing yourself to sound like another snooty voice in the wilderness.

Oh I'm chilled, it's like frozen tundra in here!

Belief in what?

 

[Aldebaran]

Belief in what?

Did you just join the discussion? Read what is being discussed and you'll know.

 

[True Scotsman]

Interesting replies, thank you for playing!

Observations:

Regarding the "I don't believe in nothing -- but I'm still an atheist" PLEASE explain. Words have meanings. "Atheism" means the specific disavowal of one, two or ANY Deity whatsoever.

It's a statement of overt disbelief.

So what, then, do you believe in?

___

Also, some of you are then turning it around to make ME affirmatively prove the existence of God. That's not what I'm asking here (but would be happy to answer/discuss in another thread if anyone wants). I'm asking what it would take for YOU to decide that atheism is no longer an intellectually rational belief -- or that you're now unsure of it as an absolute.

It's not "What would it take for you to believe in God."

But what would it take for you to decide that logically/emotionally/intellectually/spiritually can no longer claim to be an atheist?

I wish I would have seen this post earlier because I want to respond to it and would have done so earlier.

I am one of those people who doesn't believe in gods or the supernatural and I don't believe in nothing either.

I believe that existence exists as an absolute. It simply is, was, always will be and could not have been otherwise. I'm speaking of the metaphysically given not the man made.

I believe that consciousness is consciousness of something as opposed to nothing. Consciousnesses is secondary to existence. Consciousness is the faculty which perceives that which exists, not the faculty which creates it.

I believe that to exist is to possess a specific nature or set of attributes. I believe that everything that exists has a finite identity and that identity is existence.

I believe in the primacy of existence over consciousness, that things are what they are as absolutes unaffected by anyone's conscious actions. A is A whether anyone likes it or not. A thing can not be A and non-A at the same time and in the same respect.

Together these fundamental principles are the base of my worldview. The god belief contradicts all of them and they are what you would have to refute in order for me to become a believer. It will be a hard row to hoe.

 

[Aldebaran]

I wish I would have seen this post earlier because I want to respond to it and would have done so earlier.

I am one of those people who doesn't believe in gods or the supernatural and I don't believe in nothing either.

I believe that existence exists as an absolute. It simply is, was, always will be and could not have been otherwise. I'm speaking of the metaphysically given not the man made.

I believe that consciousness is consciousness of something as opposed to nothing. Consciousnesses is secondary to existence. Consciousness is the faculty which perceives that which exists, not the faculty which creates it.

I believe that to exist is to possess a specific nature or set of attributes. I believe that everything that exists has a finite identity and that identity is existence.

I believe in the primacy of existence over consciousness, that things are what they are as absolutes unaffected by anyone's conscious actions. A is A whether anyone likes it or not. A thing can not be A and non-A at the same time and in the same respect.

Together these fundamental principles are the base of my worldview. The god belief contradicts all of them and they are what you would have to refute in order for me to become a believer. It will be a hard row to hoe.

All the things you addressed are the natural things. Now, what about things that are beyond the natural state? Even scientists talk about alternate dimensions, and those aren't things we can naturally perceive.

 

[True Scotsman]

All the things you addressed are the natural things. Now, what about things that are beyond the natural state? Even scientists talk about alternate dimensions, and those aren't things we can naturally perceive.

My definition of Nature is synonymous with existence. It means everything that exists including consciousness, 'immaterial" things like concepts, things we can perceive and things we can't such as quarks and glueons and other dimensions that might exist. If other dimension exist then they are a part of nature.

The universe or existence is an integrated whole and our senses, like everything else that exists are finite and limited in their ability to perceive. The fact that our senses possess a finite identity is not a problem, it's what makes them possible. What we can't directly perceive we must infer but all inferences, to be valid, must be reducible to percepts. It is not possible to infer from looking at nature it's antithesis or the supernatural. That is an invalid concept. We can arrive at that concept by using our imaginations but not by induction.

I don't recognize anything that is beyond the natural state.

 

[Tellastory]

Question for the group: If you are an atheist, what would it take to convince you that there truly is "something" rather than "nothing"?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Or is it possible? (I have a feeling that some loathe the concept of God so much, they could watch the seas part & they would STILL find a reason to doubt.....)

Loving sin more than God to be reproved by Him can do that to a sinner to doubt on purpose.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Not every one will want to believe, and so we are to acknowledge that when someone says he or she does not want to hear it, then leave them alone or risk getting into an argument when they will start belittling you.

Just know that if they want to hear it, God the Father is at work as anyone seeking the truth will find Him.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

One has to really wonder about the athiests in here; are they seeking Him or seeking opportunities to mock and scoff, thus persecuting the faith as if they don't have better use of their time spent somewhere else? Otherwise, there are regular pubic forums for these guys to meet.

One can always hope that God is working on drawing some unto the Son to reveal Him to them through His words.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Loving sin more than God to be reproved by Him can do that to a sinner to doubt on purpose.

I come accross this so many times with theists and I am literally baffled at how they can think it's a sensible thing to say.

The next time you are about to write that bigotted statement down, ask yourself this question:

Do you not believe in Santa Claus because:
A. you simply aren't convinced he exists
or
B. you "love being naughty" more then Santa Clauss.

 

[znr]

I'm sure you're happy with your lack of humility. You come across very smug and self righteous, though. If that's your aim, well done.

Whoop!

 

[Aldebaran]

My definition of Nature is synonymous with existence. It means everything that exists including consciousness, 'immaterial" things like concepts, things we can perceive and things we can't such as quarks and glueons and other dimensions that might exist. If other dimension exist then they are a part of nature.

The universe or existence is an integrated whole and our senses, like everything else that exists are finite and limited in their ability to perceive. The fact that our senses possess a finite identity is not a problem, it's what makes them possible. What we can't directly perceive we must infer but all inferences, to be valid, must be reducible to percepts. It is not possible to infer from looking at nature it's antithesis or the supernatural. That is an invalid concept. We can arrive at that concept by using our imaginations but not by induction.

I don't recognize anything that is beyond the natural state.

Sooooo, if I understand correctly, you accept that God may in fact exist since he is part of nature, even though it's a part of nature that we can't perceive. But at the end of your post, you say you don't recognize anything that is beyond the natural state. Since your profile says you're an atheiest, I'm assuming you don't believe in God. But since you believe in everything in nature, that is everything that exists (even if we can't perceive them), do you not believe in God as well, even if you don't perceive Him?

 

[Aldebaran]

One has to really wonder about the athiests in here; are they seeking Him or seeking opportunities to mock and scoff, thus persecuting the faith as if they don't have better use of their time spent somewhere else? Otherwise, there are regular pubic forums for these guys to meet.

One can always hope that God is working on drawing some unto the Son to reveal Him to them through His words.

I've asked them several times why they come here, and they start out saying that my question is an act of desperation, and then say they come here for the discussion and to learn new things. My hope is that they're learning something. I like being challenged myself too. It makes me do some research into some things I hadn't thought of before.

 

[bhsmte]

I've asked them several times why they come here, and they start out saying that my question is an act of desperation, and then say they come here for the discussion and to learn new things. My hope is that they're learning something. I like being challenged myself too. It makes me do some research into some things I hadn't thought of before.

If one can observe objectively to any degree, there is always something to learn.

Of course, what others are learning, may not be something you agree with.