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Why Evolution is True (2)

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dad

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This doesn't help with issues in translation error it all, in fact some of these can unintentionally make it worse (for concepts that require more words to be properly expressed in one language than another, as an example). Also, these regulations wouldn't have existed when these texts were first being written down.


God existed right from the time Adam chatted with Him. Translation is not a big issue when we can look at more original ancient copies. Looking at many of the translations we do have, when I type a verse, and look at the various translations I seldom see any glaring difference. The reason I gravitate toward the KJV usually is because of beauty of language and preference. It reminds me of a time when English was as some seem to think 'at it's purest'...Shakspearean era.
 
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PsychoSarah

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God existed right from the time Adam chatted with Him. Translation is not a big issue when we can look at more original ancient copies. Looking at many of the translations we do have, when I type a verse, and look at the various translations I seldom see any glaring difference. The reason I gravitate toward the KJV usually is because of beauty of language and preference. It reminds me of a time when English was as some seem to think 'at it's purest'...Shakspearean era.

God. Doesn't. Stop. People. From. Messing. With. The. Text. People follow versions of the bible you would view as sacrilege, where was god to stop Joseph Smith from writing the Book of Mormon? And Jehovah's Witnesses have a similarly different bible, and even believe that the symbolism and beliefs of most Christians are offensive to god.
 
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dad

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God. Doesn't. Stop. People. From. Messing. With. The. Text.


I think when God said this, it scared many people out of trying.



Re 22:19 -And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.




Also, God makes sure His word gets where He wants and does what it is supposed to Personally!


Again, here is God Almighty speaking!


Isa 55:11 -So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


Yet again....


Lu 16:17 - And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


So the word is not just more certain than gravity, or the sun rising, but more sure than all the heavens and earth.

People follow versions of the bible you would view as sacrilege, where was god to stop Joseph Smith from writing the Book of Mormon?
Scripture was here before that book, so if it opposes the bible, it can be dismissed out of hand.
And Jehovah's Witnesses have a similarly different bible, and even believe that the symbolism and beliefs of most Christians are offensive to god.
Hey, running through the bible and re translating most words for God as Jehovah is not something that should fool a serious seeker of truth. Just like if someone tells you heaven is full, you can know they are full..of it.





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PsychoSarah

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I think when God said this, it scared many people out of trying.



Re 22:19 -And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Also, God makes sure His word gets where He wants and does what it is supposed to Personally!

Again, here is God Almighty speaking!

Isa 55:11 -So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


Yet again....


Lu 16:17 - And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


So the word is not just more certain than gravity, or the sun rising, but more sure than all the heavens and earth.

Scripture was here before that book, so if it opposes the bible, it can be dismissed out of hand.
Hey, running through the bible and re translating most words for God as Jehovah is not something that should fool a serious seeker of truth. Just like if someone tells you heaven is full, you can know they are full..of it.





.

It is god supposedly speaking, as per you have to trust the authors not only were being honest, but also were generally accurate, and you have to assume that whatever being was supposedly talking to them was in fact a deity that fit the descriptions.

Plus, it didn't stop everyone from messing with the text, obviously.
 
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dad

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It is god supposedly speaking, as per you have to trust the authors not only were being honest, but also were generally accurate, and you have to assume that whatever being was supposedly talking to them was in fact a deity that fit the descriptions.
You would also need the wherewithal to determine if everything is 'accurate'. You don't have that. Once we look at the course of history, and events and compare what was written, it is easy to determine that God had to be behind it. No other possibility. The apostles, family and disciples who saw Jesus killed and then rise from the dead, and stay around for many weeks chatting it up, dining with them, etc were so impressed most of them died to verify that they were really witnesses. The impact on the world and people is also testable and observed. One cannot wave it all away.
Plus, it didn't stop everyone from messing with the text, obviously.
Yes, there have been oodles of texts found that can be cross checked with older ones. It isn't like we had just one copy, and so cult can change Scripture for the world. They may have pet translations and even other books, but that is their internal problem. Their members should get out more. So called science ought to get it's head out of the fishbowl too!




.
 
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PsychoSarah

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You would also need the wherewithal to determine if everything is 'accurate'. You don't have that. Once we look at the course of history, and events and compare what was written, it is easy to determine that God had to be behind it. No other possibility. The apostles, family and disciples who saw Jesus killed and then rise from the dead, and stay around for many weeks chatting it up, dining with them, etc were so impressed most of them died to verify that they were really witnesses. The impact on the world and people is also testable and observed. One cannot wave it all away.
Yes, there have been oodles of texts found that can be cross checked with older ones. It isn't like we had just one copy, and so cult can change Scripture for the world. They may have pet translations and even other books, but that is their internal problem. Their members should get out more. So called science ought to get it's head out of the fishbowl too!




.

If the whole point of scripture remaining consistent is so that people couldn't mess with scripture and have people think their version is right, then it has failed miserably.
 
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createdtoworship

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Not really, many records have been kept to a tee to the originals, even a few which were older than the bible. However, this was partially thanks to the fact that they didn't go through the translation process nearly as many times as the bible did. And don't forget the countless years most of the biblical teachings of the Old Testament went through as complete oral traditions, making it impossible to definitively say what the original teachings were actually like.



most of the time lower criticism is the safest best, but occasionally you get a higher critic that maintains his Biblical integrity like this ones review:

"Perhaps the greatest work in English on the Higher Criticism is Horne’s Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scripture. It is a work that is simply massive in its scholarship, and invaluable in its vast reach of information for the study of the Holy Scriptures. B...(Carter’s edition in two volumes contains 1,149 pages, and in ordinary book form would contain over 4,000 pages, i.e., about ten volumes of 400 pages each). "

01: The History of the Higher Criticism (The Fundamentals of the Christian Faith vol 1)

more info on reliability of the Bible here:

Evidence ch. 4 - Reliability of the Bible

also look into the bibliographical test for the Bible's authenticity.
 
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PsychoSarah

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most of the time lower criticism is the safest best, but occasionally you get a higher critic that maintains his Biblical integrity like this ones review:

"Perhaps the greatest work in English on the Higher Criticism is Horne’s Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scripture. It is a work that is simply massive in its scholarship, and invaluable in its vast reach of information for the study of the Holy Scriptures. B...(Carter’s edition in two volumes contains 1,149 pages, and in ordinary book form would contain over 4,000 pages, i.e., about ten volumes of 400 pages each). "

01: The History of the Higher Criticism (The Fundamentals of the Christian Faith vol 1)

more info on reliability of the Bible here:

Evidence ch. 4 - Reliability of the Bible

also look into the bibliographical test for the Bible's authenticity.

Again, impossible to test how much the written bible matched up with the original oral teachings.
 
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createdtoworship

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Again, impossible to test how much the written bible matched up with the original oral teachings.

well under that same premise, we would have to toss out the historical manuscripts of thucydides:

"The history of Thucydides written in the 5th century BC is available from only 8 manuscripts
and they don’t exist until 900 AD, 1300 years after!"

no originals have been found.

there are numerous examples of this.

however:

" The New Testament passes this test better than any
other body of ancient literature. We have roughly 5,700 Greek New Testament manuscripts with the
earliest fragment dating to about 125 AD and large portions of the gospels found as early as 200 AD."
above quotes from:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/jmc6/Historical_Reliability_of_the_Bible.pdf
 
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PsychoSarah

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well under that same premise, we would have to toss out the historical manuscripts of thucydides:

"The history of Thucydides written in the 5th century BC is available from only 8 manuscripts
and they don’t exist until 900 AD, 1300 years after!"

no originals have been found.

there are numerous examples of this.

above quote from:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/jmc6/Historical_Reliability_of_the_Bible.pdf

Any physical buildings from the place itself or other non document evidence for it?
 
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createdtoworship

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Any physical buildings from the place itself or other non document evidence for it?

there is no more periferial evidence for thucydides or Herodotus (both ancient history) than there is for the Bible. You can look at archaelogy to find the cities etc, people groups. But not more so than one can also do with the Holy Scriptures.

So we must toss out all ancient history in order for your premise to be true.

namely that we need an original versus the copies.

here is more that attest to what I am saying:

"John Warwick Montgomery says that "to be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament."

Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, who was the director and principal librarian of the British Museum and second to none in authority for issuing statements about MSS, says, "...besides number, the manuscripts of the New Testament differ from those of the classical authors, and this time the difference is clear gain. In no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest extant manuscripts so short as in that of the New Testament. The books of the New Testament were written in the latter part of the first century; the earliest extant manuscripts (trifling scraps excepted) are of the fourth century - say from 250 to 300 years later. (chester beaty paprus is even newer)

"This may sound a considerable interval, but it is nothing to that which parts most of the great classical authors from their earliest manuscripts. We believe that we have in all essentials an accurate text of the seven extant plays of Sophocles; yet the earliest substantial manuscript upon which it is based was written more than 1400 years after the poet's death."

Kenyon continues in The Bible and Archaeology: "The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established."

...

F. F. Bruce in The New Testament Documents vividly pictures the comparison between the New Testament and ancient historical writings: "Perhaps we can appreciate how wealthy the New Testament is in manuscript attestation if we compare the textual material for other ancient historical works. For Caesar's Gallic Wars (composed between 58 and 50 BC) there are several extant MSS, but only nine or ten are good, and the oldest is some 900 years later than Caesar's day. Of the 142 books of the Roman history of Livy (59 BC-AD 17), only 35 survive; these are known to us from not more than 20 MSS of any consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books II-IV, is as old as the fourth century. Of the 14 books of the histories of Tacitus (ca. AD 100) only four and a half survive; of the 16 books of his Annuals, 10 survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of his two great historical works depends entirely on two MSS, one of the ninth century and one of the eleventh.

"The extant MSS of his minor works (Dialogues de Oratoribus, Agricola, Germania) all descend from a codex of the tenth century. The History of Thucydides (ca. 460-400 BC) is known to us from scraps, belonging to about the beginning of the Christian era. The same is true of the History of Herodotus (BC 488-428). Yet no classical scholar would listen to an argument that the authenticity of Herodotus or Thucydides is in doubt because the earliest MSS of their works which are of any use to us are over 1,300 years later than the originals."

Greenlee writes in Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism about the time gap between the original MS (the autograph) and the extant MS (the oldest copy surviving), saying that "the oldest known MSS of most of the Greek classical authors are dated a thousand years or more after the author's death. The time interval for the Latin authors is somewhat less, varying down to a minimum of three centuries in the case of Virgil. In the case of the New Testament, however, two of the most important MSS were written within 300 years after the New Testament was completed, and some virtually complete N.T. books as well as extensive fragmentary MSS of many parts of the N.T. date back to one century from the original writings."

Greenlee adds that "since scholars accept as generally trustworthy the writings of the ancient classics even though the earliest MSS were written so long after the original writings and the number of extant MSS is in many instances so small, it is clear that the reliability of the text of the N.T. is likewise assured."

Bruce Metzger in The Text of the New Testament cogently writes of the comparison: "The works of several ancient authors are preserved to us by the thinnest possible thread of transmission. For example, the compendious history of Rome by Belleius Paterculus survived to modern times in only one incomplete manuscript, from which the edito princeps wa made - and this lone manuscript was lost in the seventeenth century after being copied by Bealus Rhenanus at Amerbach. Even the Annals of the famous historian Tacitus is extant, so far as the first six books are concerned, in but a single manuscript, dating from the ninth century. In 1870 the only known manuscript of the Epistle to Diognetus, an early Christian composition which editors usually include in the corpus of Apostolic Fathers, perished in a fire at the municipal library in Strasbourg. In contrast with these figures, the textual critic of the New Testament is embarrassed by the wealth of his material".



above quotes from:

Evidence ch. 4 - Reliability of the Bible
 
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PsychoSarah

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I don't have to toss all ancient history, the Parthenon still stands, plenty of ancient events left more behind than a few documents. Plus, if said documents aren't all from the same culture that gives them extra credibility in that sense (as opposed to them all being copies of the same essential document).

But you know, we all are free to doubt certain events in history happened. I mean, it isn't as if biblical events are the only ones to come into question.
 
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createdtoworship

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I don't have to toss all ancient history, the Parthenon still stands, plenty of ancient events left more behind than a few documents. Plus, if said documents aren't all from the same culture that gives them extra credibility in that sense (as opposed to them all being copies of the same essential document).

But you know, we all are free to doubt certain events in history happened. I mean, it isn't as if biblical events are the only ones to come into question.

the Bible's events have left a trail as well

pool of siloam:

The Siloam Pool: Where Jesus Healed the Blind Man – Biblical Archaeology Society

ashkelon mentioned in the old testament 4 or 5 times:
Ancient Ashkelon @ nationalgeographic.com

canaanite fortress, gihon spring found as mentioned in the Bible:
Canaanite Fortress Discovered in the City of David – Biblical Archaeology Society

guard towers found from hezekiah's reign: (protected gihon spring)

http://www.generationword.com/jerusalem101/18-gihon-springs.html
there are more at biblicalarchaeology.org

many more found at:

http://www.generationword.com/jerusalem101.html

does this mean that the Bible has the same validity as ancient history to you?

It should.

"No one can scientifically "prove" any view of history, creation or evolution, old earth or young earth, uniformity, or Noah's flood. The best we can do is to identify our view of history, interpret the evidence within that view, and see which view does the best job. In addition, when we do, I am convinced the Biblical view comes out on top."

above quote:
Grand Canyon: Is it Really "Exhibit A" for Evolution and the Old Earth?
Supplemental
John D. Morris, Ph.D.
Back To Genesis
No. 66b, June 1994

The above quote is why I don't believe creationism, nor evolution is empiricle science. As they are explainations of past events that cannot be replicated locally or in a labratory. If evolution can be taught, and it is. Creation/ more specifically it's secular counterpart ID should be legal to teach as well.
 
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createdtoworship

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Most of your sources (all but 1 actually) are apologist sites so...

then refute the one that's not.

If thats what you want

secondly, this is a dodge. What if you quoted peer reviews that proved macro evolution. And I stated, they don't believe in creationism therefore I don't accept their biases? Well that would be wrong. You are doing the same thing here. You are dodging the facts, the pictures, the digs, all because a christian may or may not have reported on them.

Thirdly, most if not all of the finds were from non christians.

fourthly this is a special case of ad hominem. Where you attack the integrity of a source on it's personal religioun. What if I said that I refuse to listen to your arguments because of your lack of religioun? Would that be right?

So in conclusion. Do you still accept your premise that you must have the originals of manuscripts in order for them to be true? As I have pointed out, not ancient historical manuscripts have said sources, they are copies, and copies none the less 1000's of years after the fact. The Bible is only copies that are a few hundred years after the fact. As numerous quotes suggest in my last post.
 
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StormanNorman

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then refute the one that's not.

If thats what you want

secondly, this is a dodge. What if you quoted peer reviews that proved macro evolution. And I stated, they don't believe in creationism therefore I don't accept their biases? Well that would be wrong. You are doing the same thing here. You are dodging the facts, the pictures, the digs, all because a christian may or may not have reported on them.

Thirdly, most if not all of the finds were from non christians.

fourthly this is a special case of ad hominem. Where you attack the integrity of a source on it's personal religioun. What if I said that I refuse to listen to your arguments because of your lack of religioun? Would that be right?

The problem is, Grady, with these creation sites is that they have an extremely strong vested interest in a very particular answer ... one that was written thousands of years ago long before anyone did any science. In fact, my guess is that they, like you, believe that the Bible is the absolute truth and nothing else is possible. Any scientist worth his/her salt would say that nothing is absolute truth ... and that includes evolution. Peer-review scientific literature isn't perfect, but it is far, far more objective than your creation sites which is why I certainly don't even consider them credible. If someone is going to falsify macro-evolution, then it is going to have to come from someone who doesn't believe that their salvation depends on it (that's call a bias).
 
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createdtoworship

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The problem is, Grady, with these creation sites is that they have an extremely strong vested interest in a very particular answer ... one that was written thousands of years ago long before anyone did any science. In fact, my guess is that they, like you, believe that the Bible is the absolute truth and nothing else is possible. Any scientist worth his/her salt would say that nothing is absolute truth ... and that includes evolution. Peer-review scientific literature isn't perfect, but it is far, far more objective than your creation sites which is why I certainly don't even consider them credible. If someone is going to falsify macro-evolution, then it is going to have to come from someone who doesn't believe that their salvation depends on it (that's call a bias).

if they are biased, which is not inherently wrong anyway (As all are biased), wouldn't it be better to correct the error? Instead of simply tossing out any and all information based on a character assassination? (adhominem fallacy)? What is the more honest thing to do?

secondly, you and the other poster did not address the non partisan link from national geographic either. So there is more to this than simple biases. What motivation do I have to find more non partisan evidences, if you dont' address what I have given you that is objective and not biased toward Christianity? This is a matter of dodging out of fear of being proven wrong, and even maybe out of laziness...but I presume it to be one or both.
 
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PsychoSarah

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So, kids, if you want truth, they are the last people on earth to ask!

Amen.



.

No, because as I have said before, to claim to have all the answers is dishonest. Even the bible itself doesn't cover literally everything.
 
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PsychoSarah

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if they are biased, which is not inherently wrong anyway (As all are biased), wouldn't it be better to correct the error? Instead of simply tossing out any and all information based on a character assassination? (adhominem fallacy)? What is the more honest thing to do?

Correct the error how? When people actually confront the people who run these sites, it ends up going nowhere. And most of the time the content on those sites has more incorrect information than not.
 
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