I would not have know sin but for the law....

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Look you can say anything you like. I made no dishonest statement(s). You can't and won't ever get me to confess something I'm not. I certainly will admit that I've been known as a sinner though.

Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; PS 107:2

It's because you flirt with that sinless posture continually. It's part of the reason few legalists even play with you because you seem to soil the truth of this particular matter while they really do work hard to be obedient to the law. It's not helping your cause, whatever that is.

Don't you think it's a more honest approach between these various legal/grace camps just to admit we are all sinners regardless of legalism or grace paste and move on?

I can make a better case for legalism than most posters here, but that will never be the point of the good use of the law.

The law has a RIGHTFUL place in Christianity. It is GODS WORD after all, and we should on that basis alone, RESPECT it all. Which is sorely lacking in the pack you run with.

 

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It's because you flirt with that sinless posture continually. It's part of the reason few legalists even play with you because you seem to soil the truth of this particular matter while they really do work hard to be obedient to the law. It's not helping your cause, whatever that is.

Really?

Let em work, they'll get their wages and I'll me more than happy to donate mine to them. That should make them really wealthy. Personaly I like the free gift much better.

So it must then be helping their cause. Really? They're the ones promoting sinlessness.

Don't you think it's a more honest approach between these various legal/grace camps just to admit we are all sinners regardless of legalism or grace paste and move on?

Yes it would be much easier to say I'm a sinner rather than acknowledge I'm a saint. The real deal it has nothing to do with my behavior trying to be righteous. No I didn't say have a life style of sin nor did I say the occasional sin is OK. I don't believe in a right to sin because of grace. They promote self righteousness thru the law which they refuse to keep. I promote a righteousness acquired only thru Jesus which exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. They got their righteousness thru the law. That wasn't the source of Abraham nor David's righteousness.

I can make a better case for legalism than most posters here, but that will never be the point of the good use of the law.

The law has a RIGHTFUL place in Christianity. It is GODS WORD after all, and we should on that basis alone, RESPECT it all. Which is sorely lacking in the pack you run with.

OK What is that rightful place? That covenant doesn't govern Christianity.

 

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Really?

Let em work, they'll get their wages and I'll me more than happy to donate mine to them. That should make them really wealthy. Personaly I like the free gift much better.

Pointed out many times to you that God in Christ is NOT against those who follow the law. That is impossible. But you seem to think that not murdering or not stealing is a bad thing for a believer to do?

So it must then be helping their cause. Really? They're the ones promoting sinlessness.

That's why it's maybe more important to get to the heart of the issue, that being that exactly zero of us under either law or grace are or become sinless.

Yes it would be much easier to say I'm a sinner rather than acknowledge I'm a saint.

Let's face another simple fact. Sin is not acceptable under Law or Grace.

yet we all remain sinners.

Grace people like to think God is ENTIRELY on their behalves, but that is not the case. God is NOT in the behalf of murdering or stealing believers for example, under Grace, nor will that happen. Nor is it acceptable under Law.

The real deal it has nothing to do with my behavior trying to be righteous. No I didn't say have a life style of sin nor did I say the occasional sin is OK. I don't believe in a right to sin because of grace. They promote self righteousness thru the law which they refuse to keep.

It is true that both camps have a basic honesty problem when it comes to being factual sinners under either flag.

In essence, it's an honesty issue. I observe legalists are dishonest about being sinners and most of the time that turns out to be a true statement.

They think they are not sinners when they are 'obedient' i.e. not murdering or stealing, but that is NOT the truthful case at all.

They and we are always sinners regardless of the religious paste we put on. And when we don't say so, that we are sinners, we're just adding LYING to the list of sins.

 

[rick357]

Really?

Let em work, they'll get their wages and I'll me more than happy to donate mine to them. That should make them really wealthy. Personaly I like the free gift much better.

So it must then be helping their cause. Really? They're the ones promoting sinlessness.Yes it would be much easier to say I'm a sinner rather than acknowledge I'm a saint. The real deal it has nothing to do with my behavior trying to be righteous. No I didn't say have a life style of sin nor did I say the occasional sin is OK. I don't believe in a right to sin because of grace. They promote self righteousness thru the law which they refuse to keep. I promote a righteousness acquired only thru Jesus which exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. They got their righteousness thru the law. That wasn't the source of Abraham nor David's righteousness.OK What is that rightful place? That covenant doesn't govern Christianity.

Where do we get the word chritianity from? From believers being called little christ which was meant as an insult like saying you dont think for yourself. The early believers instead of thinking it was an insult took it as being a good disciple by being conformed to their master in action and thought. That said christ was a.law keeper .before I go further I completly depend on his grace never on my actions as I know if his grace is not empowering my thought and deed I am left to my own ability and I am a law breaker. So what is the purpose of law if I live in and by grace. Jesus is the word of God made flesh the law is the word of God. So Jesus not only kept the Law but he was the law in the flesh. This being the case the place of the law is that we may know him and trust him to be completed in us more and more. As to obediance to the law that is for christ to do through us. Yet we can not dismiss it without ignoring him. Also to the keeping of it we know that the same apostle who taught us we were not under the law also taught that men who lived in a sinfull lifestyle would no way enter the kingdom of heavan. Not you but some have thought they could use Paul against what Paul taught and let deaath and sin reign in their lives. Paul teaches we mustrestore such people in love.

 

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Where do we get the word chritianity from? From believers being called little christ which was meant as an insult like saying you dont think for yourself. The early believers instead of thinking it was an insult took it as being a good disciple by being conformed to their master in action and thought. That said christ was a.law keeper .before I go further I completly depend on his grace never on my actions as I know if his grace is not empowering my thought and deed I am left to my own ability and I am a law breaker. So what is the purpose of law if I live in and by grace. Jesus is the word of God made flesh the law is the word of God. So Jesus not only kept the Law but he was the law in the flesh. This being the case the place of the law is that we may know him and trust him to be completed in us more and more. As to obediance to the law that is for christ to do through us. Yet we can not dismiss it without ignoring him. Also to the keeping of it we know that the same apostle who taught us we were not under the law also taught that men who lived in a sinfull lifestyle would no way enter the kingdom of heavan. Not you but some have thought they could use Paul against what Paul taught and let deaath and sin reign in their lives. Paul teaches we mustrestore such people in love.

Yes, you have hit on an important observation.

And yes, Jesus in our midst works precisely to separate us from the lawlessness that we do factually have.

So we walk in a divided way currently. We can not say that there is no child of the flesh fighting against the child of God. Or if we do, we just don't have all that great of theology understanding.

The child of the flesh will never be legal or under Grace. The child of God is technically already Perfect, but presently covered up or obscured by the other.

Those who see this matter personally are called on to the road of overcoming.

 

[rick357]

Yes, you have hit on an important observation.

And yes, Jesus in our midst works precisely to separate us from the lawlessness that we do factually have.

So we walk in a divided way currently. We can not say that there is no child of the flesh fighting against the child of God. Or if we do, we just don't have all that great of theology understanding.

The child of the flesh will never be legal or under Grace. The child of God is technically already Perfect, but presently covered up or obscured by the other.

Those who see this matter personally are called on to the road of overcoming.

In my post I said I always depend on grace that is what I know I should always do but at times I do fustrate the grace of God often without realizing it but when I.sin it is an alarm from God that I have fustrated grace. I did not mean it that way but it is as a statment not true as it was stated as an absolute

 

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In my post I said I always depend on grace that is what I know I should always do but at times I do fustrate the grace of God often without realizing it but when I.sin it is an alarm from God that I have fustrated grace. I did not mean it that way but it is as a statment not true as it was stated as an absolute

Galatians 4:29 is a personal reality for every believer.

Divide your'self' along those lines and you'll get it.

 

[rick357]

Galatians 4:29 is a personal reality for every believer.

Divide your'self' along those lines and you'll get it.

And by his grace galatians 4:31 overcomes

 

[rick357]

And by his grace galatians 4:31 overcomes

For Arabia answers not only to Jerusalem which is but to Jerusalem that shall be

 

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And by his grace galatians 4:31 overcomes

The child of the flesh will remain locked out regardless just as Ishmael and his mother could not inherit and was in fact cast out no matter how good he was or how much good he would do.

Abraham had 2 sons. That was actually a picture of Abram the blinded flesh/natural man and Abraham, the father of faith who saw himself accurately in his own 2 sons and his 2 wives.

 

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Pointed out many times to you that God in Christ is NOT against those who follow the law. That is impossible. But you seem to think that not murdering or not stealing is a bad thing for a believer to do?

You seem to be making this a personal attack. It isn't on my behalf. First of all they don't follow the law. The evidence abounds all over this area of the forum and GT. I'm not really interested in discussing the dirt. I do enjoy discussing theology and its application though.

That's why it's maybe more important to get to the heart of the issue, that being that exactly zero of us under either law or grace are or become sinless.

What is the heart of the issue? Can you express it?

Let's face another simple fact. Sin is not acceptable under Law or Grace.

Very much agreed!!

yet we all remain sinners.

Nope! the redeemed aren't sinners any more. They have become saints. The picture of saints is one without physical sin. What a crock and old wives fable.

Grace people like to think God is ENTIRELY on their behalves, but that is not the case. God is NOT in the behalf of murdering or stealing believers for example, under Grace, nor will that happen. Nor is it acceptable under Law.

Don't follow you at all here.

It is true that both camps have a basic honesty problem when it comes to being factual sinners under either flag.

I've no idea what you're talking about. It seems to me you contend salvation changes nothing. My idea of sinner is one who practices sin known on any level or realm private or public.

In essence, it's an honesty issue. I observe legalists are dishonest about being sinners and most of the time that turns out to be a true statement.

I can accept that.

They think they are not sinners when they are 'obedient' i.e. not murdering or stealing, but that is NOT the truthful case at all.

Agreed

They and we are always sinners regardless of the religious paste we put on. And when we don't say so, that we are sinners, we're just adding LYING to the list of sins.

No unless you wish to say I'm a redeemed sinner.

 

[rick357]

The child of the flesh will remain locked out regardless just as Ishmael and his mother could not inherit and was in fact cast out no matter how good he was or how much good he would do.

Abraham had 2 sons. That was actually a picture of Abram the blinded flesh/natural man and Abraham, the father of faith who saw himself accurately in his own 2 sons and his 2 wives.

Correct I wasnt contradicting you rather saying the end is determined and as you say the flesh will be locked out

 

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Where do we get the word chritianity from? From believers being called little christ which was meant as an insult like saying you dont think for yourself. The early believers instead of thinking it was an insult took it as being a good disciple by being conformed to their master in action and thought. That said christ was a.law keeper .before I go further I completly depend on his grace never on my actions as I know if his grace is not empowering my thought and deed I am left to my own ability and I am a law breaker. So what is the purpose of law if I live in and by grace. Jesus is the word of God made flesh the law is the word of God. So Jesus not only kept the Law but he was the law in the flesh. This being the case the place of the law is that we may know him and trust him to be completed in us more and more. As to obediance to the law that is for christ to do through us. Yet we can not dismiss it without ignoring him. Also to the keeping of it we know that the same apostle who taught us we were not under the law also taught that men who lived in a sinfull lifestyle would no way enter the kingdom of heavan. Not you but some have thought they could use Paul against what Paul taught and let deaath and sin reign in their lives. Paul teaches we mustrestore such people in love.

Not one thing you said obligates the Christian to the law. I don't wish to be restored to the law. Grace is a much better deal and following the leading of the Holy Spirit is much easier than a rule list. The Holy Spirit neither leads one to the law or by the law. If this were so redemption from the law and its curse is worthless.

 

[rick357]

Not one thing you said obligates the Christian to the law. I don't wish to be restored to the law. Grace is a much better deal and following the leading of the Holy Spirit is much easier than a rule list. The Holy Spirit neither leads one to the law or by the law. If this were so redemption from the law and its curse is worthless.

You are certainly correct the law in the scense of that covenant was weak by the use of the flesh to carry it out so no we never should return to that covenant also in the new we dont try to carry it out as a matter of fact if you try then you are acting in the first allready my point is the spirit through you will cary it out nothing to do with you trying. The point of the scriptures we call the Law is that you may Know him. For this reason we must be clear when we say the law has nothing to do with us It is the way we come to know Jesus because every conclusion of every teaching he taught is drawn from those scriptures butvas to keeping the law by love of God and men that ia a work of his spirit moving and living theough you

 

[rick357]

Not one thing you said obligates the Christian to the law. I don't wish to be restored to the law. Grace is a much better deal and following the leading of the Holy Spirit is much easier than a rule list. The Holy Spirit neither leads one to the law or by the law. If this were so redemption from the law and its curse is worthless.

In addition the Holy Spirit leading you sounds to many as if you are saying he leads you to what you must perform. But the scripture teaches "you" are dead in christ it is the spirit makeing you alive. So he lives through you not only in you this may be what you meant just making it clear

 

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You are certainly correct the law in the scense of that covenant was weak by the use of the flesh to carry it out so no we never should return to that covenant also in the new we dont try to carry it out as a matter of fact if you try then you are acting in the first allready my point is the spirit through you will cary it out nothing to do with you trying. The point of the scriptures we call the Law is that you may Know him. For this reason we must be clear when we say the law has nothing to do with us It is the way we come to know Jesus because every conclusion of every teaching he taught is drawn from those scriptures butvas to keeping the law by love of God and men that ia a work of his spirit moving and living theough you

If you wish to be led by the law that's fine with me. I love being led by the Spirit.

Since you say we must be clear when we say the law has nothing to do with us, what do you mean?

 

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In addition the Holy Spirit leading you sounds to many as if you are saying he leads you to what you must perform. But the scripture teaches "you" are dead in christ it is the spirit makeing you alive. So he lives through you not only in you this may be what you meant just making it clear

I've Romans 6 in mind about being dead and raised to life. I've chapter 7 and Gal 5 in mind when talking about freedom from the law. I've chapter 8 in mind when I talk about the life one has in Jesus. When it comes to jurisdiction of the law I've Rom 1-12 and Gal 3 with supplements from the Gospels in mind.

 

[rick357]

If you wish to be led by the law that's fine with me. I love being led by the Spirit.

Since you say we must be clear when we say the law has nothing to do with us, what do you mean?

Went back and read my post. If you took time to read them you may have understood what I was saying. Since you seem to want to say things just to say them by all means dont let what I say effect your conversation.

 

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You seem to be making this a personal attack. It isn't on my behalf. First of all they don't follow the law.

As you command the law to be, no.

But it's pretty hard to say that people who are not murdering or stealing are in fact OBEYING the law in the external sense.

The fact that they are sinners though didn't change a bit by that obedience.

Don't follow you at all here.I've no idea what you're talking about. It seems to me you contend salvation changes nothing.

We may certainly sin 'less' but that does not make us sinless or non-sinners.

My idea of sinner is one who practices sin known on any level or realm private or public.

Jesus said that evil thoughts defile us. What is evil and defiling is sin.

So yes, an evil thought is SIN. Just a single stray evil defiling thought.

 

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Went back and read my post. If you took time to read them you may have understood what I was saying. Since you seem to want to say things just to say them by all means dont let what I say effect your conversation.

In my case the law had nothing to do with me coming to Jesus. It was pure unadulterated child faith believing I had a need. I came to Jesus prior to understanding what sin was and living an evil life style. IOW the worst things I did to my knowledge was lie. I fully agree that the law shows us our need for some solution to a severe problem for those of an age to understand that. I wasn't taught by the law on how to live a self righteous life.

So maybe we're in the same boat. It certainly appeared to me you're supporting the law for Christians. The SDA do the same thing all the time. No I didn't say you're SDA. The only way the law has had a part of my life is through the false teachings and practices of most churches. I was confused for more than 40 years. The things practiced and taught by churches I attended didn't work for me. The position I now hold does. Is it common? Nope! Do I care? Nope!!!! So what should I do? Sell out and believe anything I'm told? Why bother to read the Bible if that's the case? My very natural inquisitive nature from birth has led me to examine everything closely.

I don't believe its wrong to murder because the Bible says so. I believe its wrong to murder because that's what has been written on my heart. I never believed it was right to commit adultery and like my non religious neighbor that attitude doesn't come from the law. Yes if someone confronts me on the issue I may very well defend my position from the law and my answer will be more than one of the commandments. Its the short cut and not my basis of life. The law as its promoted here at CF has never been part of me and the only people to confront me with the law especially as a requirement for salvation are basically 2 religious sects - Primarily and namely the SDA group and secondly the MJ type group. Both seek total control of my religious life, fellowship with God and entrance to heaven. Sorry but no sale ever!!!!!! I've read the Bible cover to cover several times.

Now I've no real clue what your base is. But it seems to be a hodgepodge to me at the moment. Galatians 5 is a great example of my basis. It doesn't refer to the law for what sins are named. It plainly says Christians don't so engage themselves. Now if one loves their neighbor as themselves how can they do evil to them? Isn't obeying the law supposed to stop evil (sin)? It obviously doesn't even in religious circles of those pushing the law. Galatians 5 also states there is no law against the behavior of Christians. If I so engage myself what value is the law?

Now it beats me how the law is part of Christianity except its part of the Bible. My salvation didn't come by the law and the law can't maintain my salvation because it didn't grant it. The false brethren tried to bring this on the Gentiles and the Apostles clearly said no.

I'm more than sure I've not said everything.