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A question for Old Earth Creationists

Standing_Ultraviolet

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Now one can interpret the constitution apparently, and many do so. If one looks at the times when it was written for example and the religion(s) they were mostly talking about, it was Christian churches and denominations, no? So of course they did not want, say, the Catholics running the show, so hence some might interpret, the proviso about religion. Some might feel that was not meant to promote totally unChristian religions as equal...or that having some respect for Christianity in general (prayer in schools, etc) was something they sought to ban!

Given that the Constitution was written in the 1780s, it doesn't seem very likely that the framers wouldn't have known that their language could be interpreted to refer to non-Christian religions or even a lack of religion. While deism wasn't common in the United States at the time, it was widespread enough among educated people on both sides of the Atlantic that there's literally no way that the founders wouldn't have had it cross their minds (bringing up Jefferson's deism here is almost irrelevant, but it probably does need to be done). Beyond that, there was a small but noticeable Jewish population in the colonies. All of the constitutional framers would have known about Islam and Eastern religions like Hinduism or Buddhism, even though they weren't widespread in the New World.

If they had intended to give priority to Christianity, they would have known enough to do so. The fact that they didn't choose to privilege Christianity in the Constitution speaks volumes. The Constitution does honor Christianity, though, along with all other religions. It pays them the honor of leaving them all alone, which is more important than you can possibly realize. Leaving all religions alone means not privileging a single one and not letting its moral code become enshrouded in law, except where its code also serves a legitimate secular purpose (as in the case of prohibiting murder). Wanting any of your religion's tenets to be the law of the land is not wanting the government to show respect to your faith. It is wanting the government to show a lack of respect to the beliefs of another person.
 
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dad

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Given that the Constitution was written in the 1780s, it doesn't seem very likely that the framers wouldn't have known that their language could be interpreted to refer to non-Christian religions or even a lack of religion. While deism wasn't common in the United States at the time, it was widespread enough among educated people on both sides of the Atlantic that there's literally no way that the founders wouldn't have had it cross their minds (bringing up Jefferson's deism here is almost irrelevant, but it probably does need to be done). Beyond that, there was a small but noticeable Jewish population in the colonies. All of the constitutional framers would have known about Islam and Eastern religions like Hinduism or Buddhism, even though they weren't widespread in the New World.

If they had intended to give priority to Christianity, they would have known enough to do so.

"
A reference to God in a legal text is called invocatio dei ("call on God") if the text itself is proclaimed in the name of the deity. A reference to God in another context is called nominatio dei, or "naming of God".[1][2]
History[edit]

Invocationes dei have a long tradition in European legal history outside national constitutions. In ancient times and the Middle Ages, gods or God were normally invoked in contracts to guarantee the agreements made,[3] and formulas such as "In the name of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" were used at the beginning of legal documents to emphasize the fairness and justness of the created norms.[4] Treaties between Christian nations customarily began with an invocation of God up until the late nineteenth century.[5]
When written constitutions became the norm for modern states in the nineteenth century, several European states carried this tradition over to their founding documents and retained it since, while others – notably laicist France and states influenced by it – did not do so, so as to preserve the state's religious neutrality.[6] European countries whose constitutions do not make reference to God include Norway (1814), Luxembourg (1868/1972), Iceland(1944/68), Italy (1947), Portugal (1976) and Spain (1978);[2] some of those who do are listed below. In the United States, the federal constitution makes no reference to God, but the constitutions of the states of California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Colorado, Washington, Nevada, Iowa, Texas, and Massachusetts, and the U.S. territory Puerto Rico, do. They generally use an invocatio of "God the Almighty" or the "Supreme Ruler of the Universe".[7]"




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_references_to_God

The people fleeing to this continent for religious freedom did not flee from Hinduism, Buddhism, or Islam for the most part, obviously.

It is a moot point at this time anyhow whether the folks on the Mayflower, or framers of the constitution etc wanted to plunge into Satanic darkness, opposing God at every turn and His word or not. I doubt the majority of them did.

The issue I raised was the current state of the nation and antichrist leadership. Forget how we got here and whether long dead people may have wanted it or not!





The fact that they didn't choose to privilege Christianity in the Constitution speaks volumes.
Great, it sealed their fate. No news there.



The Constitution does honor Christianity, though, along with all other religions. It pays them the honor of leaving them all alone, which is more important than you can possibly realize.

It is not leaving them alone when Satan/Obamacare forced people to accept and promote baby killing meds against their will.

Leaving all religions alone means not privileging a single one and not letting its moral code become enshrouded in law, except where its code also serves a legitimate secular purpose (as in the case of prohibiting murder).
That is Babylon beliefs. The idea that God should be relegated to just one of many gods (multiculturalism etc) is nothing new. Excuse me if I do not buy into it.


Wanting any of your religion's tenets to be the law of the land is not wanting the government to show respect to your faith.

You want to pretend they do?? My faith is not dependent on them liking or lumping it.

It is wanting the government to show a lack of respect to the beliefs of another person.
The nature of antichrist leadership is to respect all things except Christ. That is the US today. Hallelujah!! An antichrist terrorist state.
 
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DerelictJunction

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"
A reference to God in a legal text is called invocatio dei ("call on God") if the text itself is proclaimed in the name of the deity. A reference to God in another context is called nominatio dei, or "naming of God".[1][2]
History[edit]

Invocationes dei have a long tradition in European legal history outside national constitutions. In ancient times and the Middle Ages, gods or God were normally invoked in contracts to guarantee the agreements made,[3] and formulas such as "In the name of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" were used at the beginning of legal documents to emphasize the fairness and justness of the created norms.[4] Treaties between Christian nations customarily began with an invocation of God up until the late nineteenth century.[5]
When written constitutions became the norm for modern states in the nineteenth century, several European states carried this tradition over to their founding documents and retained it since, while others – notably laicist France and states influenced by it – did not do so, so as to preserve the state's religious neutrality.[6] European countries whose constitutions do not make reference to God include Norway (1814), Luxembourg (1868/1972), Iceland(1944/68), Italy (1947), Portugal (1976) and Spain (1978);[2] some of those who do are listed below. In the United States, the federal constitution makes no reference to God, but the constitutions of the states of California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Colorado, Washington, Nevada, Iowa, Texas, and Massachusetts, and the U.S. territory Puerto Rico, do. They generally use an invocatio of "God the Almighty" or the "Supreme Ruler of the Universe".[7]"
All I can say is "so what?" Federal law trumps state law when it concerns an individual's rights. So, those states can have whatever they want in their constitutions but they cannot show any particular religion greater privilege than any other religion. Also, those states cannot make laws that trample the individual's rights as spelled out in the U.S. Constitution.
The people fleeing to this continent for religious freedom did not flee from Hinduism, Buddhism, or Islam for the most part, obviously.
It is a moot point at this time anyhow whether the folks on the Mayflower, or framers of the constitution etc wanted to plunge into Satanic darkness, opposing God at every turn and His word or not. I doubt the majority of them did.
The issue I raised was the current state of the nation and antichrist leadership. Forget how we got here and whether long dead people may have wanted it or not!.
Ok, but, remember that the current rights of the people require the government to only make laws that remain neutral with regard to religion or religious belief.
Great, it sealed their fate. No news there.
Then perhaps you should get a large number of Christians together and lobby to repeal the first amendment. That would bring us back from the brink and pave the way for a new set of religious laws that align with the Bible.
It is not leaving them alone when Satan/Obamacare forced people to accept and promote baby killing meds against their will.
I am not well versed on the details of the requirements placed on insurance companies by the Affordable Care Act. Does it require insurance companies to pay for abortions and the "abortion" pill? Doesn't it require insurance companies to pay for Viagra and Cialis without a requirement to determine if the recipient is legally married? Wouldn't that be promoting fornication?
That is Babylon beliefs. The idea that God should be relegated to just one of many gods (multiculturalism etc) is nothing new. Excuse me if I do not buy into it.
The Constitution does not require anyone to "buy into it". You just cannot expect to get laws passed that honor any of your religion's moral codes if those codes don't have a compelling secular advantage for the government or the governed.
You want to pretend they do?? My faith is not dependent on them liking or lumping it.
That wasn't his point. Providing privilege to one religion not only disrespects all other religions but also disrespects the religion getting the privilege.
The nature of antichrist leadership is to respect all things except Christ. That is the US today. Hallelujah!! An antichrist terrorist state.
United States Federal Government --- Dishonoring Christ since 1789.
 
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DerelictJunction

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You guys mind revisiting the topic of this thread? Thank you. :)
I think I have adequately addressed the topic from the OEC Theistic Evolutionist, YEC, and OEC Genesis-is-historically-accurate points of view.
If a person differs with my explanations, they may address them with a rebuttal.

Until that time, I feel no obligation to further address the OP. However, I will refrain from taking things further afield.
 
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RickG

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I think I have adequately addressed the topic from the OEC Theistic Evolutionist, YEC, and OEC Genesis-is-historically-accurate points of view.
If a person differs with my explanations, they may address them with a rebuttal.

Until that time, I feel no obligation to further address the OP. However, I will refrain from taking things further afield.

I must have missed that. The reason I specified old earth creationists is because they have no problem with a 4.54 Ga earth. The challenge was to explain the fossil record without evolution. Would you mind specifying a post number that I may review?
 
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DerelictJunction

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I must have missed that. The reason I specified old earth creationists is because they have no problem with a 4.54 Ga earth. The challenge was to explain the fossil record without evolution. Would you mind specifying a post number that I may review?
OEC Theistic Evolutionist -- post 397.

YEC and OEC Genesis-is-historically-accurate: See below.

After the Flood, God had to clean up the mess so that faith would become the dominant evidence of His hand in history.
There were a lot of dead bodies and sediment. Being a God that established order in the universe He created, He wanted the cleanup to result in an orderly final product. Therefore, He sorted the sediments based on the ratios of radioactive isotopes with their daughter products. His A-type personality precluded His leaving the bodies randomly buried throughout the sediments. He decided to group the dead bodies based on similarities and so that the overall "feel" of the big picture was one of a smooth spectrum of organism morphology flowing through the sediments from the bottom. However, this turned out to be too obsessive-compulsive, which would surely point directly to the God that is described in the Bible. So to confuse things a bit, God folded and scoured parts of the crust.

This may seem facetious but it comes closer to explaining the sediment-fossil ordering than anything I have seen on a creationist website.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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As usual, I don't understand your reply. At first glance, it looks like a long self-indulgent excuse to not answer the question.
However, in the past, you have stated that God cleaned up all the mess from the Flood so no evidence of it was left behind.
Why didn't you just say that God put all the fossils in sediments in the order they are found?
If He purposely removed evidence for the Flood, He can put in fossils to look like evolution occurred. In fact, those fossils are not required to have ever been living creatures. The radioactive elements and their decay products could have been put there in the right ratios also.
Originally Posted by AV1611VET
Yes ... with a very few exceptions.

First of all, I'm not convinced that all these fossils that are in the ground today are from animals that lived before the Flood.

Maybe a few are ... but for the most part, the remains of the animals that died during the Flood -- including layers of earth -- were taken elsewhere in the solar system to be placed on display as a warning sign to other angels.

I do think God left these coccoliths or coccospores or whatever they're called here on earth for cross-reference purposes.

God swept them up before Noah disembarked, and stockpiled them in what is now called "white cliffs," such as in Dover, England.

A corresponding set of "white cliffs" then would be taken elsewhere in the solar system for ... as I said ... cross reference.

Suppose you're a fallen angel, approaching the earth.

The first thing you see as you enter our solar system -- (or are aware of) -- is a planet ... Neptune, to be exact ... that contains fossils or skeletons of 30' beings (or however tall they were), dinosaurs, trees, men, women, children, and various plants and animals.

This is a "warning" ... or a "reminder" ... of what God can, and has, done, and should get you to thinking about your contemporaries who are currently locked up in chains of darkness forever.

Should you ignore this "warning buoy" (Neptune), then when you arrive at earth, you will see basically some of the same things you saw on Neptune: white cliffs, dinosaurs, humans, plants and animals.

This should then serve as a powerful deterrent for a repeat of the activities of Genesis 6.

This is, of course, speculation on my part; but if you have a better explanation, then more power to you.
That's making stuff up and you know it. More non literal made up stuff to justify the literal. Remember the 9th commandment.
:)

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030326.htm

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."



"Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire..." There is nothing in this world worth lying about. The old mocking children's rhyme, "Liar, liar, pants on fire..." is not entirely inappropriate, considering what is surely coming:
"the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.......
Catholicism must number the 10 Commandments differently :confused:

Catechism Commentary: The Ninth Commandment | Catholic Moral Theology

The ninth commandment seems redundant, sexist, trivial, and maybe even impossible. Why, “Do not covet your neighbor’s wife,” when we already have the sixth commandment, “Do not commit adultery”? Why do women appear in the same list with animals and houses? What is so bad about desire? Can a person really control his or her thoughts?

The Catechism interprets the ninth commandment as forbidding “concupiscence” and requiring the disciplining of sexual desires that can lead to sin (#2515). It urges Christians to cultivate “purity of heart” (#2517). To be pure of heart is to treat all others as neighbors with love and respect (#2519). The quest for purity is described as a “battle” that can only be won with great effort...........


.
 
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RickG

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OEC Theistic Evolutionist -- post 397.

YEC and OEC Genesis-is-historically-accurate: See below.

After the Flood, God had to clean up the mess so that faith would become the dominant evidence of His hand in history.
There were a lot of dead bodies and sediment. Being a God that established order in the universe He created, He wanted the cleanup to result in an orderly final product. Therefore, He sorted the sediments based on the ratios of radioactive isotopes with their daughter products. His A-type personality precluded His leaving the bodies randomly buried throughout the sediments. He decided to group the dead bodies based on similarities and so that the overall "feel" of the big picture was one of a smooth spectrum of organism morphology flowing through the sediments from the bottom. However, this turned out to be too obsessive-compulsive, which would surely point directly to the God that is described in the Bible. So to confuse things a bit, God folded and scoured parts of the crust.

This may seem facetious but it comes closer to explaining the sediment-fossil ordering than anything I have seen on a creationist website.

Very funny DJ. ^_^
 
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twob4me

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The last 2 pages of this thread has gone through a clean up and it's possible a further cleaning will take place. Please STOP with the Flaming and stay on topic. If you want to discuss something not related to the thread topic start your own thread or take it to PM.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
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AV1611VET

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Still soliciting explanations of the fossil record to be explained without evolution. Keep in mind that this is to be done from an old earth perspective..
Well, along came this Flood and got everything floating around everywhere.

And when it was time for the Flood to end, God finished it off by making it into a knickerbocker glory.
 
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Lollerskates

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Explain the fossil record without evolution?

Dating is inaccurate. Plain and simple.

Forget inaccuracies in data, or even elemental isotopic influences on radiation counts skewing dates. Evolution is a linearly extrapolated theory that does not account for variables that can cataclysmically change the fundamentals of matter. At best, it is philosophical.

It does not account for jovian masses coming upon the planet, causing elemental changes.

It does not account for stellar anomalies, and the influences it has on biological and inorganic matter.

It does not account for magic (philosophically speaking, no joke.)

It does not account for extraterrestrial creatures influencing matter - organic and inorganic - on the planet.

It does not account for quantum chromodynamic, quantum electrodynamics, or high magnetic field influences.

It does not account for constant cosmic radiation bombardment influence on matter.

It does not account for magnetic field flips, weakening, and complete failure of the planet.

It does not account for environments that allow certain isotopes to be stable in one type of environment, while unstable in others (globally.)


Evolution is a great philosophy, and it gives an insight into what could be a solution to the problem of the origin of life. But, it is not the unique solution. The earth was created with Heaven in the beginning as per Genesis 1:1, if we are talking biblically.
 
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Loudmouth

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Dating is inaccurate. Plain and simple.

Forget inaccuracies in data, or even elemental isotopic influences on radiation counts skewing dates. Evolution is a linearly extrapolated theory that does not account for variables that can cataclysmically change the fundamentals of matter. At best, it is philosophical.

It does not account for jovian masses coming upon the planet, causing elemental changes.

It does not account for stellar anomalies, and the influences it has on biological and inorganic matter.

It does not account for magic (philosophically speaking, no joke.)

It does not account for extraterrestrial creatures influencing matter - organic and inorganic - on the planet.

It does not account for quantum chromodynamic, quantum electrodynamics, or high magnetic field influences.

It does not account for constant cosmic radiation bombardment influence on matter.

It does not account for magnetic field flips, weakening, and complete failure of the planet.

It does not account for environments that allow certain isotopes to be stable in one type of environment, while unstable in others (globally.)


Evolution is a great philosophy, and it gives an insight into what could be a solution to the problem of the origin of life. But, it is not the unique solution. The earth was created with Heaven in the beginning as per Genesis 1:1, if we are talking biblically.

All of these have been studied by science, and they are not a problem for decay rates.

http://www.whoi.edu/cms/files/1972AnRevNucSci22p165_68424.pdf

The amount of energy needed to change the decay rates of these isotopes well exceeds the energy needed to destroy the rocks they are found in.
 
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RickG

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Well, along came this Flood and got everything floating around everywhere.

And when it was time for the Flood to end, God finished it off by making it into a knickerbocker glory.

What part of old earth perspective did you not understand?
 
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Astrophile

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Dating is inaccurate. Plain and simple.

Forget inaccuracies in data, or even elemental isotopic influences on radiation counts skewing dates. Evolution is a linearly extrapolated theory that does not account for variables that can cataclysmically change the fundamentals of matter. At best, it is philosophical.

It does not account for jovian masses coming upon the planet, causing elemental changes.

It does not account for stellar anomalies, and the influences it has on biological and inorganic matter.

It does not account for extraterrestrial creatures influencing matter - organic and inorganic - on the planet.

Jovian masses coming upon the planet, indeed! You do know that Jupiter's mass is 317.8 times the Earth's, don't you? Such a mass colliding with the Earth would destroy it outright.

Exactly what stellar anomalies are you referring to? I'm not trying to prove anything here; it's just that I've been studying stellar anomalies for more than 40 years, and I'm always interested in learning about new ones.

Have you got evidence for extraterrestrial creatures? If so, why haven't you published this amazing discovery, to add to the excitement about Jovian masses and new stellar anomalies?
 
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CabVet

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Well, along came this Flood and got everything floating around everywhere.

And when it was time for the Flood to end, God finished it off by making it into a knickerbocker glory.

And God organized the layers of floating organisms on top of one another in a way that is perfectly compatible with evolution and completely incompatible with his own account of creation.
 
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Lollerskates

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All of these have been studied by science, and they are not a problem for decay rates.

http://www.whoi.edu/cms/files/1972AnRevNucSci22p165_68424.pdf

The amount of energy needed to change the decay rates of these isotopes well exceeds the energy needed to destroy the rocks they are found in.

No it doesn't. Soil iodine interferes with carbon counts.

Decay rates are not constants. They are relative constants, geologically. As I said, celestial events, and quantum perturbations do not get factored in. Anyone with deep pockets can hire a team of scientists to vindicate a theory. "Science" is not a unitary entity; it took until the late 20th/early 21st century for the Standard Model to recognize neutrino oscillations. Neutrinos are weak force; specifically the thing determinant to radiation counts detailing record.

As I said, celestial radiation is not factored into evolution.

Quantum chromodynamics is not factored into evolution.

Extraterrestrial influence isn't factored into evolution.

Radiological bombardment isn't factored into evolution.

Etc...


"Science" may have received grant money to substantiate the theory of evolution, but that doesn't mean it is the unique solution.
 
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Lollerskates

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Jovian masses coming upon the planet, indeed! You do know that Jupiter's mass is 317.8 times the Earth's, don't you? Such a mass colliding with the Earth would destroy it outright.

Exactly what stellar anomalies are you referring to? I'm not trying to prove anything here; it's just that I've been studying stellar anomalies for more than 40 years, and I'm always interested in learning about new ones.

Have you got evidence for extraterrestrial creatures? If so, why haven't you published this amazing discovery, to add to the excitement about Jovian masses and new stellar anomalies?

I keep making the mistake of posting with you lot in this forum.

By the way, I said "come upon," not collide. Whatever.

I am wrong.
 
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Loudmouth

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No it doesn't. Soil iodine interferes with carbon counts.

How does soil iodine interfere with the counts? What does this have to do with the decay rate of 14C?

Decay rates are not constants. They are relative constants, geologically. As I said, celestial events, and quantum perturbations do not get factored in.

Why do they need to be factored in? You might as well claim that the number of clowns in Serbia do not get factored in to radiometric dating. You need to show that they would have a significant impact on dating before you can complain about them not being factored in.

As I said, celestial radiation is not factored into evolution.

What do you mean by this? Are you talking about mutations caused by solar radiation? What?

"Science" may have received grant money to substantiate the theory of evolution, but that doesn't mean it is the unique solution.

Then why don't you present some evidence instead of making empty allegations.
 
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