Does God exist?

[PsychoSarah]

Really? Lack of evidence for a god leads you to conclude there's a god?

Lack of evidence that excludes gods or indicates gods leads me to being inconclusive. There is such a thing as "I have no freaking clue as far as the evidence goes".

 

[BL2KTN]

YHWH is not a Canaanite war god. His origins are strictly Hebrew: you need to read the Old Testament if you believe otherwise.

Uh, we can read the Canaanite religious text. We know they viewed Yahweh as the son of El, and that he was a war god. We also see at the burning bush Yahweh reveal to Moses that he has been El all along.

 

[PsychoSarah]

What is it about "we DON'T KNOW." did you not get?

She never claimed God existed. SHE SAID SHE DID NOT KNOW.

Yup, pretty much.

 

[bhsmte]

All atheists are agnostics my friend, unless you want to claim you KNOW that God does not exist.

If you are the latter, I would love to see your argument(s).

Nope.

Atheists lack a belief in a God, agnostics claim it is unknowable.

Just as a theist believes in a God, an atheist does not believe in a God. Very few atheists actually claim it is impossible for a God to exist, they just don't see any reason to believe in one. On the other hand, very few theists will ever admit that a God could possibly not exist.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

YES

God Bless

 

[bhsmte]

What is it about "we DON'T KNOW." did you not get?

She never claimed God existed. SHE SAID SHE DID NOT KNOW.

You seem angry.

 

[bhsmte]

So it seems Harris' main argument is that people suffer unjustifiably so God doesn't exist. But God will one day intervene to end all evil and to rectify all unjustified suffering. That fact is what atheistic philosophers forget when they talk about the problem of evil.

Hey, if you think what you claim will happen will make it all better, that is your choice.

And, that was a small tidbit of the debate, which went on about 2 hours, in which Harris wiped the floor with Craig. At the end, Harris had Notre Dame students in the audience applauding him.

 

[quatona]

So it seems Harris' main argument is that people suffer unjustifiably so God doesn't exist. But God will one day intervene to end all evil and to rectify all unjustified suffering. That fact is what atheistic philosophers forget when they talk about the problem of evil.

I can´t seem to make any sense of the wording "rectifying suffering", in the first place.

 

[KnowtheSilence]

What is your position regarding the following:

(V) God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.

Philosophers are puzzled by states of intentionality. Intentionality is the property of being about something or of something. It signifies the object-directedness of our thoughts. For example, I can think about my summer vacation, or I can think of my wife. No physical object has intentionality in this sense. A chair or a stone or a glob of tissue like the brain is not about or of something else. Only mental states or states of consciousness are about other things. In The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions (2011), the materialist Alex Rosenberg recognizes this fact, and concludes that for atheists, there really are no intentional states. Rosenberg boldly claims that we never really think about anything. But this seems incredible. Obviously, I am thinking about Rosenberg’s argument – and so are you! This seems to me to be a reductio ad absurdum of his atheism. By contrast, for theists, because God is a mind, it’s hardly surprising that there should be other, finite minds, with intentional states. Thus intentional states fit comfortably into a theistic worldview.

So we may argue:

1. If God did not exist, intentional states of consciousness would not exist.

2. But intentional states of consciousness do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

This is one of my problems with theism. "Hey, there's this thing we don't quite understand, and it seems too complicated to have a naturalistic explanation, so let's assume it exists eternally with no explanation necessary in this thing called God." Um, how can that be satisfying? If this is something that you're really curious about, something you need to have answered, why is the "God did it, no further explanation necessary"-style of answer at all satisfying?

 

[KCfromNC]

What is your position regarding the following:

(V) God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.

God isn't an explanation for anything. "God did it" doesn't provide predictions, a mechanism or anything we can use to actually understand the process. Invoking gods(s) is giving up on finding an actual explanation.

 

[FireDragon76]

This sort of thread is pointless... nobody ever seems to change their mind due to arguments about God.

I'm convinced most people believe, or disbelieve in God for reasons totally unrelated to rational argumentation. People turn to arguments to confirm what they already want to believe but want intellectual credibility.

Having said that, I find the philosophical justifications of Alfred North Whitehead's theism persuasive. God exists because the universe is intelligible.

 

[durangodawood]

...God exists because the universe is intelligible.

How so?

It seems there's also naturalistic explanations for why we should be able to comprehend the universe.

 

[bhsmte]

This sort of thread is pointless... nobody ever seems to change their mind due to arguments about God.

I'm convinced most people believe, or disbelieve in God for reasons totally unrelated to rational argumentation. People turn to arguments to confirm what they already want to believe but want intellectual credibility.

Having said that, I find the philosophical justifications of Alfred North Whitehead's theism persuasive. God exists because the universe is intelligible.

IMO, the reason people would believe in a God with the limited to no evidence we have is purely psychological in nature. In regards to why most don't believe, would also involve psychological makeup and that being a need to think objectively and have things make sense and rely on objective evidence. Studies have shown, believers are typically intuitive thinkers and non-believers more of the analytical type. This doesn't explain everything, but it does apply to many.

God exists because the universe is intelligible? I don't get that, we can understand things through science, in how the natural world operates and to me, that is quite a leap to say God exists because we can understand the universe.

 

[FireDragon76]

God exists because the universe is intelligible? I don't get that, we can understand things through science, in how the natural world operates and to me, that is quite a leap to say God exists because we can understand the universe.

The intelligibility of the universe implies a supreme intelligence that organizes the universe. Rather than overthrowing science, this upholds the finding of science with moral gravity.

 

[bhsmte]

The intelligibility of the universe implies a supreme intelligence that organizes the universe. Rather than overthrowing science, this upholds the finding of science with moral gravity.

We have learned nothing that tells us the natural world could not have done the same. Although, I understand why believers would want to latch onto what you claim.

 

[FireDragon76]

We have learned nothing that tells us the natural world could not have done the same. Although, I understand why believers would want to latch onto what you claim.

I agree... but the belief in God adds a moral gravity to our scientific understanding that would be weakened or lacking, otherwise. There's a whole realm of values that is lacking from scientific discourse... so no particular reason, for instance, why I should care about things like Global Warming, just based on the evidence of science alone.

 

[bhsmte]

I agree... but the belief in God adds a moral gravity to our scientific understanding that would be weakened or lacking, otherwise.

Adds moral gravity?

I guess that would depend which God you are referring to. The God of the bible does not set a moral standard that I would deem positive.

In regards to global warming, are you saying without a God, there is no reason to be concerned about it?

 

[FireDragon76]

Adds moral gravity?

I guess that would depend which God you are referring to. The God of the bible does not set a moral standard that I would deem positive.

For what it's worth... I'm not a fundamentalist Christian. My faith is informed by the Bible of course, but also by human reason and experience of Christians throughout the ages.

In regards to global warming, are you saying without a God, there is no reason to be concerned about it?

David Hume, an avowed skeptic, said as much: "Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger"

 

[bhsmte]

The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways, so I am not sure that statement makes much sense. There are many possible Gods of the Bible, not all of them will be correct.

For what it's worth... I'm not a fundamentalist Christian. My faith is informed by the Bible of course, but also by human reason and experience.



David Hume, an avowed skeptic, said as much: "Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger"

Yes, the bible is interpreted in many different ways and that is also psychologically driven as people pick the interpretation, that meets their personal needs the best.

And, I do believe the God depicted in the bible, is a mixed bag, some moral, some very immoral.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, the bible is interpreted in many different ways and that is also psychologically driven as people pick the interpretation, that meets their personal needs the best.

Doesn't that equally damn the atheist, who looks at reality and interprets it in the same light?

And, I do believe the God depicted in the bible, is a mixed bag, some moral, some very immoral.

Is the issue with God, or your particular understanding of the Bible? I think a great deal of the Bible involves divine accommodation, not timeless, factual statements about how God is in himself. We need to use systematic theology to really understand God's attributes, and not just rely upon random snippets of scripture.