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godenver1

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The point I was making is before the Jewish race the sons of God referred to angels not men, so it is logical to think in Gen they are referring to angels. The sons of Gods after the jewish race were always referring to Jews, in the New testament it was anyone with The Holy Spirit. As Gods plan came to be sons of God took on new meaning and meant different groups.

How do you know this?
 
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Bluelion

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I second the request for how?

do you know of sons of God revered to another time before the Jewish race the Book of Job and gen, Adam was called a son of God, but then Adam was not a normal man at first was he.

Professor gave the passages and that argument as he has wrote books on the matter I take it it is so.
 
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Yekcidmij

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do you know of sons of God revered to another time before the Jewish race the Book of Job and gen,

So what are you thoughts on my previous comments about Job? Here is a summary:

(1) The book of Job is written post-Exodus. I can provide my reasons if you're interested.
(2) One reference to something (in Job in this case) is an insufficient sample size from which to draw general conclusions.

Adam was called a son of God, but then Adam was not a normal man at first was he.

It looks to me as if he was a normal man. Maybe he was innocent before his disobedience, but otherwise he's normal. Why do you think he was abnormal? Further, why do you think he was so abnormal so that "son of God" refered to an angel? Is he ever described as an angel or some other sort of divine being?
 
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Bluelion

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So what are you thoughts on my previous comments about Job? Here is a summary:

(1) The book of Job is written post-Exodus. I can provide my reasons if you're interested.
(2) One reference to something (in Job in this case) is an insufficient sample size from which to draw general conclusions.



It looks to me as if he was a normal man. Maybe he was innocent before his disobedience, but otherwise he's normal. Why do you think he was abnormal? Further, why do you think he was so abnormal so that "son of God" refered to an angel? Is he ever described as an angel or some other sort of divine being?

thought i answered that I must have deleted it.

Job is the oldest book in it God speaks of dinosaur which were wiped out in the flood. It was written most likely by one of Job servants but could have been Job. because it mentions dinosaurs it is thought to be the oldest, gen was written by Moses, we know that, Moses was long after the Jewish race.

When speaking of things before the Jewish race sons of God were angels after it could have meant Israel. Fact there was no Jewish race before the Flood. so where were your Holy men fit to be called sons of God because Noah and his family were the only ones found to be righteous. There is no mention of this Holy race, any books, or anything they did to be called sons of God. But the Jewish people found favor with the Lord we know all about them.
 
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Yekcidmij

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because it mentions dinosaurs it is thought to be the oldest,

(1) Several of the Psalms (74, 107) and Isaiah (27) also mention the "Leviathan," yet nobody (that I know of) thinks any of the Psalms or Isaiah are written before Abraham. Just because someone mentions dinosaurs in a writing doesn't mean that the writing itself is as old as dinosaurs. If if it does, then some of the books I had as a kid require an explanation.

(2) The mentioning of Leviathan in Job (3, 41) does not indicate that Job is a contemporary of the dinosaurs. Leviathan functions more as a metonymy for chaos in Job 3. In Job 41 it's used as a rhetorical device to demonstrate God's power to Job. God is asking Job, "Can you harness and slay a dragon like me?" Of course Job can't. It doesn't not indicate that Job is alive with a dinosaur.

And it looks like Job 41 is talking about some sort of dragon/sea monster, not a dinosaur.


41:18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the red glow of dawn.
41:19 Out of its mouth go flames,
sparks of fire shoot forth!
41:20 Smoke streams from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning rushes.
41:21 Its breath sets coals ablaze
and a flame shoots from its mouth.


I don't think the references to Leviathan are good reason to think Job is written before Abraham.

-I think the references in Job to Chaldeans and Sabeans indicate a date post 1000 BC (so, well after Israel was in the promised land).

-Also the use of "Rahab" as code for "Egypt" and a reference to the Exodus seems to be found in 9:13 and 26:12-13 (cf: Is 30:7, Ps 87, Ps 89:9-10, Ps 74:12-14), which would further indicate that Job is written after the Exodus.

-The reference to Job being from the land of Uz also indicates a later date. Uz is only used as the name of a location in Jeremiah and Lamantations, which would seem to indicate that Job is written near the time of Jeremiah.
 
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Bluelion

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(1) Several of the Psalms (74, 107) and Isaiah (27) also mention the "Leviathan," yet nobody (that I know of) thinks any of the Psalms or Isaiah are written before Abraham. Just because someone mentions dinosaurs in a writing doesn't mean that the writing itself is as old as dinosaurs. If if it does, then some of the books I had as a kid require an explanation.

(2) The mentioning of Leviathan in Job (3, 41) does not indicate that Job is a contemporary of the dinosaurs. Leviathan functions more as a metonymy for chaos in Job 3. In Job 41 it's used as a rhetorical device to demonstrate God's power to Job. God is asking Job, "Can you harness and slay a dragon like me?" Of course Job can't. It doesn't not indicate that Job is alive with a dinosaur.

And it looks like Job 41 is talking about some sort of dragon/sea monster, not a dinosaur.


41:18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the red glow of dawn.
41:19 Out of its mouth go flames,
sparks of fire shoot forth!
41:20 Smoke streams from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning rushes.
41:21 Its breath sets coals ablaze
and a flame shoots from its mouth.


I don't think the references to Leviathan are good reason to think Job is written before Abraham.

-I think the references in Job to Chaldeans and Sabeans indicate a date post 1000 BC (so, well after Israel was in the promised land).

-Also the use of "Rahab" as code for "Egypt" and a reference to the Exodus seems to be found in 9:13 and 26:12-13 (cf: Is 30:7, Ps 87, Ps 89:9-10, Ps 74:12-14), which would further indicate that Job is written after the Exodus.

-The reference to Job being from the land of Uz also indicates a later date. Uz is only used as the name of a location in Jeremiah and Lamantations, which would seem to indicate that Job is written near the time of Jeremiah.

oh ok I disagree:)

Job new who dinosaurs were which points to him living with them. Also behemoth is mentioned in the book. We know psalms was written mostly by king David, he could have been refer to Job.
 
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Avid

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As far the "sons of God" there are eleven scriptures with that exact phrase.
Gen 6:2 6:4, Job 1:6 2:1 38:7, John 1:12, Rom 8:14 8:19, Phl 2;15, 1John 3:1 3:2.

From these scriptures maybe we can get some idea of the sons of God.
May I suggest the SIMPLEST of explanations? It seems very clear that the scriptures mean that sons of God are those Created by God. Those who come about by procreation (human progeny,) are called sons of men.

Some prophets (Ezekiel & Daniel) and Jesus himself, had the title of Son of Man. It was important that these were known as human beings. These each stood before God in the place of mankind, and had a job to do for God as a representative of all mankind.

Jesus was, also, called the Only Begotten Son of God. This is a unique title.

The other uses of sons of God can be seen as creations of God. In the New Testament, they are specifically people who are made a new creation by the grace of God in Jesus Christ. Those who are made a new creation in Christ are called the sons of God.

In the Old Testament, they seem to specifically be angelic beings. Adam was a son of God. God created him.

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:7
There has not yet been a time when ALL of the people (humans) were together, and shouting for joy. These sons of God predate the new creation made when humans are conformed to the image of Jesus Christ by His grace. These are not people who walk in shoe-leather.

God did not refer to Cain or his brother, Able, as being sons of God, as Adam their parent was. Notice the use of the phrase, "son of man" in Job. He is clearly talking about procreated humans.

Since there is no specific mention of any human in the old testament (besides Adam) being referred to as a son of God, it is safe to say that all humans except Adam are considered sons of men, and NOT sons of God. Jesus Christ was the exception as he was procreated BY GOD THE FATHER with a human. Mary was chosen for that role, and it was a blessing to her. It was her faithfulness that commended her to God, but her physical characteristics were very important. These physical characteristics were the defining characteristics of the Savior as he walked this Earth.

.
 
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JoshuaDaryl

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May I suggest the SIMPLEST of explanations? It seems very clear that the scriptures mean that sons of God are those Created by God. Those who come about by procreation (human progeny,) are called sons of men.

Some prophets (Ezekiel & Daniel) and Jesus himself, had the title of Son of Man. It was important that these were known as human beings. These each stood before God in the place of mankind, and had a job to do for God as a representative of all mankind.

Jesus was, also, called the Only Begotten Son of God. This is a unique title.

The other uses of sons of God can be seen as creations of God. In the New Testament, they are specifically people who are made a new creation by the grace of God in Jesus Christ. Those who are made a new creation in Christ are called the sons of God.

In the Old Testament, they seem to specifically be angelic beings. Adam was a son of God. God created him.

There has not yet been a time when ALL of the people (humans) were together, and shouting for joy. These sons of God predate the new creation made when humans are conformed to the image of Jesus Christ by His grace. These are not people who walk in shoe-leather.

God did not refer to Cain or his brother, Able, as being sons of God, as Adam their parent was. Notice the use of the phrase, "son of man" in Job. He is clearly talking about procreated humans.

Since there is no specific mention of any human in the old testament (besides Adam) being referred to as a son of God, it is safe to say that all humans except Adam are considered sons of men, and NOT sons of God. Jesus Christ was the exception as he was procreated BY GOD THE FATHER with a human. Mary was chosen for that role, and it was a blessing to her. It was her faithfulness that commended her to God, but her physical characteristics were very important. These physical characteristics were the defining characteristics of the Savior as he walked this Earth.

.

All valid points, :thumbsup:
 
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Yekcidmij

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Since there is no specific mention of any human in the old testament (besides Adam) being referred to as a son of God, it is safe to say that all humans except Adam are considered sons of men, and NOT sons of God.

.

All of Israel was called God's son:

Exodus 4:22 You must say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Israel is my son, my firstborn, 4:23 and I said to you, ‘Let my son go that he may serve me,’​

...as was Solomon:

2 Sam 7:13 He will build a house for my name, and I will make his dynasty permanent. 7:14 I will become his father and he will become my son.​

...as was David:

Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me,
‘You are my father, my God, and the protector who delivers me.’
89:27 I will appoint him to be my firstborn son,
the most exalted of the earth’s kings.​

...as was any king:

Psalm 2:7 The king says,“I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me:
‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!​
 
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Avid

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Very interesting. I'll consider the impact of those verses.

A concern about the impact of these verses is that there is more than one time He uses the term, "my firstborn," though we have, in the New Testament, God referring to Jesus of Nazareth as His only begotten Son.

Thank you.
 
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godenver1

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May I suggest the SIMPLEST of explanations? It seems very clear that the scriptures mean that sons of God are those Created by God. Those who come about by procreation (human progeny,) are called sons of men.

Some prophets (Ezekiel & Daniel) and Jesus himself, had the title of Son of Man. It was important that these were known as human beings. These each stood before God in the place of mankind, and had a job to do for God as a representative of all mankind.

Jesus was, also, called the Only Begotten Son of God. This is a unique title.

The other uses of sons of God can be seen as creations of God. In the New Testament, they are specifically people who are made a new creation by the grace of God in Jesus Christ. Those who are made a new creation in Christ are called the sons of God.

In the Old Testament, they seem to specifically be angelic beings. Adam was a son of God. God created him.

There has not yet been a time when ALL of the people (humans) were together, and shouting for joy. These sons of God predate the new creation made when humans are conformed to the image of Jesus Christ by His grace. These are not people who walk in shoe-leather.

God did not refer to Cain or his brother, Able, as being sons of God, as Adam their parent was. Notice the use of the phrase, "son of man" in Job. He is clearly talking about procreated humans.

Since there is no specific mention of any human in the old testament (besides Adam) being referred to as a son of God, it is safe to say that all humans except Adam are considered sons of men, and NOT sons of God. Jesus Christ was the exception as he was procreated BY GOD THE FATHER with a human. Mary was chosen for that role, and it was a blessing to her. It was her faithfulness that commended her to God, but her physical characteristics were very important. These physical characteristics were the defining characteristics of the Savior as he walked this Earth.

.

Hi Avid. :)

I think ThisBrotherOfHis explained it in the most simple, and logical, way one could.
 
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Avid

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Hi Avid. :)

I think ThisBrotherOfHis explained it in the most simple, and logical, way one could.

Originally Posted by ThisBrotherOfHis
... There is never ever any record of actual physical contact. There's a reason for that. The illusion would be destroyed...
Do you consider the two sent to Sodom to get Lot and his family to have been Angels? There was plenty of physical contact there.

ThisBrotherOfHis may have well described the position that is considered "conventional wisdom," but I do not think he covered all the bases, so to speak...

Sorry for having to post so much scripture, but it is REALLY important to do so.

Genesis 19
1 ¶ And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 ¶ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 ¶ And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
15 ¶ And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

.
 
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JoshuaDaryl

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Do you consider the two sent to Sodom to get Lot and his family to have been Angels? There was plenty of physical contact there.

ThisBrotherOfHis may have well described the position that is considered "conventional wisdom," but I do not think he covered all the bases, so to speak...

Sorry for having to post so much scripture, but it is REALLY important to do so.

Genesis 19
1 ¶ And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 ¶ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 ¶ And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
15 ¶ And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

.


I too brought this same subject up ;)
 
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Avid

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I too brought this same subject up ;)
My concern in my own study is that I not miss something, or ignore something important. When we are looking for understanding in the scriptures, we must be careful of these things.

There are other important considerations, but I am cautious about saying anything about them, if there is not someone open to learning the truth of the matter.
 
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JoshuaDaryl

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My concern in my own study is that I not miss something, or ignore something important. When we are looking for understanding in the scriptures, we must be careful of these things.

There are other important considerations, but I am cautious about saying anything about them, if there is not someone open to learning the truth of the matter.

I totally understand. I avoid many subjects so as not to offend my brethren. Many are not prepared, unwilling, or many other reasons unable to accept, discuss or study things outside the main box, so to speak. I do not want to be a stumbling block, as Paul said, if it offends your brother to eat strong meat, do not eat strong meat in front of him. Sorry, thats off the top of my head, but the point is there.
 
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