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God being perfect

Joshua260

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That i did it means i willed and desired to do it, even if i desired and willed something else too.

May I ask a question to test your resolve to hold onto such a belief?

I would tell you up front that if I was ordered to kill someone, even while in service to my country, killing that person would certainly NOT be something that I desired/wanted to do. I can't express how much I would NOT desire/want to do that! Instead, I would desire/want to NOT kill them.

So if you were ordered to kill someone, even while in the service to your country, would you say that you killed them because you desired/wanted to kill them?
 
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Hikarifuru

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when you killed the person it meant you desired to kill then. You could've also had probably had many desires such as desires for that person to live and desires for you to obey your orders the desires can conflict but they were all desires, especially the ones you chose.
 
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Joshua260

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when you killed the person it meant you desired to kill then. You could've also had probably had many desires such as desires for that person to live and desires for you to obey your orders the desires can conflict but they were all desires, especially the ones you chose.

I said that this was a question to test your resolve to hold on to that belief, so would you answer for yourself please?

If you were ordered to kill someone, even while in the service to your country, would you say that you killed them because you desired/wanted to kill them?

A simple "yes" would satisfy my curiosity.
 
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Hikarifuru

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by "be ok". If you're asking if he wants us to be happy in serving him then sure, but if you're asking does he want us to feel good about ourself when we're messing up then no. What's the saying; sometimes bad self esteem is just good common sense. If your asking why he lets bad things happen to good people, then again I think that I can't judge what I can't understand. I can be angry that the traffic light at which I've been sitting for five minutes, seems to have skipped my turn and say "God, why would you do this to me when I'm already late for work" but never understand that the malfunction prevented me from being involved in a fatal wreck. There's just too many variables for me to take in in order to understand the mind of God.



As far as wanting us all to choose to be saved, I believe (and there are Christians who would disagree with me) that He does:



But again it's the "choose to" which complicates things. To him it means nothing if we don't freely choose to love him. Remember I believe that God is not bound to space and time linearly as we are, so to Him the moment I accepted him into my heart occurs simultaneously with each moment I deny or fail him. He understands my entire life; every thought and every action as a single instant. So it was not exactly a surprise to him when I was saved. It was not a surprise to him when you chose not to believe. It will not be a surprise to him if you or I ever decide to change our positions on the matter. Neither of us think we ever could or would but can any of us ever tell with one hundred percent certainty what the future will bring?

Any of us,of course, except God. He already knows. All the decisions we've made, all the decisions we've yet to make, in a single instance; he understands. So we can fuss about what we think is fair or not fair about some being saved and some not, and whether or not that means he's failed to achieve his purpose, but without truly understanding that purpose, how could we ever say?

It boils down to faith. Faith that the horseman will get me safely back to the stable. Faiththat my tom-tom will get me safely to my destination. Faith that God has a plan to safely bring me home. Or faith that he doesn't - either way, will have faith in something.

Alright, i think i understand your position. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Joshua260

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If i were to kill someone or did anything for that matter then yes id have wanted to. As is seen by my choice to do it.

I did not say that you chose to kill someone, I said that you were ordered to kill someone, implying that you did not want to do it.

My question was "If you were ordered to kill someone, even while in the service to your country, would you say that you killed them because you desired/wanted to kill them?"

I won't bother you to answer with a simple "yes" anymore. After two tries, I think I have my answer.
 
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Joshua260

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my answer was always yes if I did it that shows that I wanted to do it.

Ok, that makes it much clearer for me. I appreciate that.

For myself, I'd feel insulted if I was ordered to kill the enemy on the battlefield and then someone made the remark that I killed them because I desired/wanted to. I simply cannot agree to your POV, but thanks again for clarifying your position. I appreciate your being honest

Have a good nite.
 
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dcalling

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Several verses say god is perfect.

Yes the bible assumes we have free will but jesus generally fails to acomplish his will for the human race and destroys it, more than once.

The only verse I found is "God, his way is perfect". That means if you can follow the way of God exactly (i.e. love your neighbor as yourself), it will be prefect. No humans can do that.

I don't know what you are talking about Jesus generally fails to accomplish his will. Jesus was killed but his followers are the biggest group among earth, just like what he said, a seed drop in the ground and dies, and it got more.
 
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Hikarifuru

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Ok, that makes it much clearer for me. I appreciate that.

For myself, I'd feel insulted if I was ordered to kill the enemy on the battlefield and then someone made the remark that I killed them because I desired/wanted to. I simply cannot agree to your POV, but thanks again for clarifying your position. I appreciate your being honest

Have a good nite.

Well wanting to kill them doesnt imply that you are the monster you may feel that that implies. There are reasons you wanted to kill them such as being at war, your desire to survive. It doesnt mean you would have wanted to under different circumstances
 
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Hikarifuru

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The only verse I found is "God, his way is perfect". That means if you can follow the way of God exactly (i.e. love your neighbor as yourself), it will be prefect. No humans can do that.

I don't know what you are talking about Jesus generally fails to accomplish his will. Jesus was killed but his followers are the biggest group among earth, just like what he said, a seed drop in the ground and dies, and it got more.

Alright, thanks for sharing with me
 
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Abandoned Barns

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Well wanting to kill them doesnt imply that you are the monster you may feel that that implies. There are reasons you wanted to kill them such as being at war, your desire to survive. It doesnt mean you would have wanted to under different circumstances

Not to butt in but,'I'm curious if you feel that this statement is also applicable to God?
 
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Joshua260

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Well wanting to kill them doesnt imply that you are the monster you may feel that that implies. There are reasons you wanted to kill them such as being at war, your desire to survive. It doesnt mean you would have wanted to under different circumstances

This one of the inconsistencies I find in atheist arguments. You would not call me a monster for killing someone if he chose to be my enemy, yet you would call God a monster even when people choose themselves to be his enemy and willingly choose the second death, instead of accepting his free offer of eternal life!

Btw, I find that not only (from personal experience) that the will and desire of a person are separate, but also that view is supported by scripture (by Paul talking about the "war in his members"). Yes I know you do not recognize scripture; I'm just referencing it for my reply here. I now wonder if your disagreement on this issue is close to the source of your disagreement with Christianity.
 
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Joshua260

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A person being your enemy isnt enough reason to kill someone much less cook them in a stove because they didnt accept you

Your missing the point. God is not your enemy, although you have determined yourself to be his. He would rather that all should have eternal life and not perish. However, you know the consequences of making your free-will choice to choose death and instead of forcing himself on you like a stalker, he will honor your choice.

His desire is to save you, but he will honor your choice.
 
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ViaCrucis

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A person being your enemy isnt enough reason to kill someone much less cook them in a stove because they didnt accept you

I would certainly agree.

Which is why God's chosen way of dealing with His enemies isn't by killing them or roasting them, but by reconciling them, forgiving them, and quenching the fire of enmity itself. That is, to save them and make them sons and daughters, friends.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hikarifuru

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Your missing the point. God is not your enemy, although you have determined yourself to be his. He would rather that all should have eternal life and not perish. However, you know the consequences of making your free-will choice to choose death and instead of forcing himself on you like a stalker, he will honor your choice.

His desire is to save you, but he will honor your choice.

Let me in"
Jesus

Why?"
Me

So i can save you"
Jesus

From what?"
Me

From what im going to do to you if you dont let me in"
Jesus
 
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Hikarifuru

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I would certainly agree.

Which is why God's chosen way of dealing with His enemies isn't by killing them or roasting them, but by reconciling them, forgiving them, and quenching the fire of enmity itself. That is, to save them and make them sons and daughters, friends.

-CryptoLutheran

Well i dont need forgiveness but i do like that story better. But its not what the bible teaches or what most christians think.
 
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