A question I don't think creationists will answer.

[Bolleke]

I seriously doubt if the revived ERV is the cause of leukemia. You do pack a lot of garbage into one post. Please try to focus on the subject at hand.

You also need to use spell checker. It is too late at night for me to try to decipher your last post. I will leave that to others.

But your ignorance over evolution is not evidence against it. Right now you have to trust me that evolution is a proven fact.

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh on you. Is English your native language, if it isn't, I will give you some leeway. If it is then shame on you.

I need more posts to put up links.
But don't call one ignorant if you have not heard of phoenix before.

Google: HERV and cancer.
They cause mutations such as cancer
Then google the phoenix virus.
Then read what mutations it causes.

I do lack language, and my observations may not be right. That's why I am here, to learn. Not to put it out as truth.

Evolution is a proven fact, and Dawkins has done a great job in his latest book. Though explaining observations about fish doesn't make them related to us, now do they?

 

[Bolleke]

Subduction, you'll figure it out
genome.cshlp.org/site/press/Herv_K.xhtml
Take your time

 

[Subduction Zone]

I need more posts to put up links.
But don't call one ignorant if you have not heard of phoenix before.

Google: HERV and cancer.
They cause mutations such as cancer
Then google the phoenix virus.
Then read what mutations it causes.

I do lack language, and my observations may not be right. That's why I am here, to learn. Not to put it out as truth.

Evolution is a proven fact, and Dawkins has done a great job in his latest book. Though explaining observations about fish doesn't make them related to us, now do they?

Actually it does, and I think I may know more about ERV's than you do. Do you even know what ERV's are and why they are extremely strong evidence for evolution? I have also read about the so called Phoenix virus, but I have not seen anything about it causing leukemia.

Why do you think that we are not ultimately descended from fish?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nothing about leukemia here:

Phoenix Rising - Heidmann, Pierron, Dewannieux

 

[Bolleke]

Nothing about leukemia here:

Oh you want that as well? I was just showing there are no beneficial mutations.
Google this context to find the source:

Phoenix: The first, termed Phoenix, is currently employed in over 2500 laboratories worldwide for delivery of genes and libraries to cells for biomedical research. It is based on Moloney Murine Leukemia Virus (MMULV) and allows for delivery of genes to most DIVIDING mammalian cell types. The system comes as either an Ecotropic packaging system (capable of delivering genes to dividing murine or rat cells) or an Amphotropic system (capable of delivering genes to dividing cells of most mammalian species, including human). A variant of the system contains simply the gag-pol genes and allows for pseudotyping with alternative envelope proteins such as VSV-G.

So what mutation does a phoenix virus "create" based on MMULV?
Also consider in fact, these are reconstructions. But they don't add up to beneficial mutations.

I have done an attempt but you have not shown me the pelvic grid and fin of a tiktaalik, nor have you answered how many there have been found.
Hands and feet of lucy still missing and also reconstructions based on footprints.

Have you not heard of phoenix or are you just trying to avoid the essence?

 

[Bolleke]

Actually it does, and I think I may know more about ERV's than you do. Do you even know what ERV's are and why they are extremely strong evidence for evolution? I have also read about the so called Phoenix virus, but I have not seen anything about it causing leukemia.

Why do you think that we are not ultimately descended from fish?

Then please explain to me how ERVS add up to evolution as it was animated to me from kid to adulthood?
When I grew older and looked at the proof, I considered that "origins" is as religious as "creation" is.
Both are undetectable.

If you have not heard of the phoenix project, you should not be so arrogant saying you know more about ERVS.
Have you read Finlay's latest book on it? I'm guessing not.

 

[RickG]

Like I? like dad? like ...

No, Hovind is a true charlatan and a disgrace to Christians.

 

[sfs]

Oh you want that as well? I was just showing there are no beneficial mutations.

You haven't shown that, though.

So what mutation does a phoenix virus "create" based on MMULV?

It creates an insertion. What does that have to do with anything?

Also consider in fact, these are reconstructions. But they don't add up to beneficial mutations.

Um, so? Why do you keep bringing up the phoenix virus?

Beneficial mutations exist. They've been seen many times in the lab and in the wild. Examples include the lactase persistence mutation near the lactase gene, the Duffy null mutation in Fy, a coding change in EDAR in east Asia, mutations in EPAS1 and EGLN1 in high altitude regions, mutations in SLC24A5, mutations in MC1R, OCA2, TYR, SLC45A2 and KITLG (among others) giving lighter skin pigmentation and mutations in CD36. Those are just beneficial mutations known in humans.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then please explain to me how ERVS add up to evolution as it was animated to me from kid to adulthood?
When I grew older and looked at the proof, I considered that "origins" is as religious as "creation" is.
Both are undetectable.

If you have not heard of the phoenix project, you should not be so arrogant saying you know more about ERVS.
Have you read Finlay's latest book on it? I'm guessing not.

Ask again more politely and properly. I will give you a couple of hints. Whether or not something is animated so that the ignorant can begin to understand in no way harms the theory. So forget the fact that they sometimes used cartoons to help you to understand evolution.

Second, do not make false assumptions. Just because you do not understand a science does not make it a religion. Your error in calling evolution as religion is as gross and insulting as calling Islam a form of Christianity. Both religions believe in God and both believe that Jesus was a real person. Neither religions would put up with what they see as a slam if their beliefs were so grossly misrepresented.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You haven't shown that, though.


It creates an insertion. What does that have to do with anything?


Um, so? Why do you keep bringing up the phoenix virus?

Beneficial mutations exist. They've been seen many times in the lab and in the wild. Examples include the lactase persistence mutation near the lactase gene, the Duffy null mutation in Fy, a coding change in EDAR in east Asia, mutations in EPAS1 and EGLN1 in high altitude regions, mutations in SLC24A5, mutations in MC1R, OCA2, TYR, SLC45A2 and KITLG (among others) giving lighter skin pigmentation and mutations in CD36. Those are just beneficial mutations known in humans.

I gave him the first example, not technically of course, I simply asked him a question. He seemed to ignore it. I don't recognize the second mutation and I forgot the third and fairly obvious mutation.

 

[lifepsyop]

We know how much incomplete lineage sorting occurred in the great ape lineage, because we've compared their genomes.

No you don't. "incomplete lineage sorting" is simply a catch-all rescue device for discordant gene trees. You still have to assume humans,gorillas, and chimps share a common ancestor in the first place, and ILS removes any potential falsification of this assumption from genome comparisons.

Since there are hundreds of thousands of ERVs, it would be immensely unlikely that most of them happened to fall into the regions where humans and gorillas are the closest pair, unlikely enough that that hypothesis would be rejected.

No, you would just infer that the incomplete sorting occurred nearer the base of all three groups, where the supposed human, chimp, and gorilla lineages were first diverging.

"Unlikely" ? Big deal. That's never stopped anyone in the industry before. Evolution itself is unlikely, to say the least.

Alternatively, even if we hadn't measured the amount of incomplete lineage sorting, simply knowing that humans and chimpanzees are substantially less diverged than humans and gorillas would rule out incomplete lineage sorting as an explanation for your hypothetical situation.

Like I said, you would just infer more sorting events at the base of humans, chimps, and gorillas. There's not really any limiting criteria on how much incomplete lineage sorting is allowed to be invoked in this situation. You're just saying "that wouldn't happen...unlikely... we'd rule that out''.. You haven't tried to explain how or why and I suspect you can't.

 

[RickG]

Ask again more politely and properly. I will give you a couple of hints. Whether or not something is animated so that the ignorant can begin to understand in no way harms the theory. So forget the fact that they sometimes used cartoons to help you to understand evolution.

Second, do not make false assumptions. Just because you do not understand a science does not make it a religion. Your error in calling evolution as religion is as gross and insulting as calling Islam a form of Christianity. Both religions believe in God and both believe that Jesus was a real person. Neither religions would put up with what they see as a slam if their beliefs were so grossly misrepresented.

Actually claiming evolution or any science for that matter a religions is nothing more than taunting.

 

[Bolleke]

I didn't say evolution is religious.
I clearly stated evolution is a proven fact to me.
And may I add, I love Richard Dawkins approach explaining it to us all.
However, the fossil record is too incomplete and too abberant. DNA is gone after millions of years, so we can't trace anything there. HERVS only go back up to 5 mya so we can't even look at our common ancestor there.....

I have seen the fossils (photograph) and read the observations. What makes you related with the tiktaalik? And more important, how?
When one starts explaining this it's all fine, when we want proof we are left with assumptions and beliefs. Isn't that kinda religious? Taunting? Maybe a little, but isn't it what it is?

It takes 40 million years to shape a foot to hooves. It takes 10 millions of years for humanoids to evolve a brain sufficient to interact with nature like no other creature before.
We see it happen, ... The animations are far off, the way they animate stuff on national geographic for kids is just not supported by sufficient facts to draw pictures like that.

 

[Bolleke]

You haven't shown that, though.


It creates an insertion. What does that have to do with anything?


Um, so? Why do you keep bringing up the phoenix virus?

Beneficial mutations exist. They've been seen many times in the lab and in the wild. Examples include the lactase persistence mutation near the lactase gene, the Duffy null mutation in Fy, a coding change in EDAR in east Asia, mutations in EPAS1 and EGLN1 in high altitude regions, mutations in SLC24A5, mutations in MC1R, OCA2, TYR, SLC45A2 and KITLG (among others) giving lighter skin pigmentation and mutations in CD36. Those are just beneficial mutations known in humans.

So you call cancer a benficial mutation? HERV's are virussen that don't cause happy mutations. However, where nature had no doctors for species, natural selection settled this otherwise.

I know beneficial mutations exists, I brought some up myself: increased bone density, increased color enhancement. But I don't see them add up to the hypotheses of our origins. The observations of phoenix is brought up by me, because that's THE HERV's they are working on. That's hot. I didnt mention HERV as proof here, it's a great observation. And we can achieve great accomplishments with that. But it does not show our origins, does it?

We even see mutations at ring species. But we don't see a fish becoming a salamander which becomes a reptile, which becomes a bird, where others become rodent, which becomes apes, which becomes semi apes, which becomes humans. No we don't see that, do we?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you call cancer a benficial mutation? HERV's are virussen that don't cause happy mutations. However, where nature had no doctors for species, natural selection settled this otherwise.

I know beneficial mutations exists, I brought some up myself: increased bone density, increased color enhancement. But I don't see them add up to the hypotheses of our origins. The observations of phoenix is brought up by me, because that's THE HERV's they are working on. That's hot. I didnt mention HERV as proof here, it's a great observation. And we can achieve great accomplishments with that. But it does not show our origins, does it?

We even see mutations at ring species. But we don't see a fish becoming a salamander which becomes a reptile, which becomes a bird, where others become rodent, which becomes apes, which becomes semi apes, which becomes humans. No we don't see that, do we?

Why do you think HERV's have to be cancerous?

What do you think that an ERV is? In your own words let see if you can explain what they are. It seems that you do not understand what the acronym stands for. You definitely do not know why it is extremely strong evidence for evolution.

 

[Bolleke]

Ask again more politely and properly. I will give you a couple of hints. Whether or not something is animated so that the ignorant can begin to understand in no way harms the theory. So forget the fact that they sometimes used cartoons to help you to understand evolution.

Second, do not make false assumptions. Just because you do not understand a science does not make it a religion. Your error in calling evolution as religion is as gross and insulting as calling Islam a form of Christianity. Both religions believe in God and both believe that Jesus was a real person. Neither religions would put up with what they see as a slam if their beliefs were so grossly misrepresented.

If I made false assumptions, which was that?
The phoenix project is worked through labs all over the world.
Anticipated by thousands of scientists.
They have reconstructed couple of retrovirusses found in our junk DNA. They cause mutations such as cancer. The first phoenix virus is based on murine leukemia virus. Anything to correct?


If I made false assumptions, why are you not correcting them?

 

[Bolleke]

Why do you think HERV's have to be cancerous?

What do you think that an ERV is? In your own words let see if you can explain what they are. It seems that you do not understand what the acronym stands for. You definitely do not know why it is extremely strong evidence for evolution.

Stop the words.
Give me the links
You did not answer my question

Have you read Finlay's latest book on it? (please, polite enough mister?)

 

[Bolleke]

ERV is a virus that causes muations such as cancer or aids. My words.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I didn't say evolution is religious.
I clearly stated evolution is a proven fact to me.
And may I add, I love Richard Dawkins approach explaining it to us all.
However, the fossil record is too incomplete and too abberant. DNA is gone after millions of years, so we can't trace anything there. HERVS only go back up to 5 mya so we can't even look at our common ancestor there.....

I have seen the fossils (photograph) and read the observations. What makes you related with the tiktaalik? And more important, how?
When one starts explaining this it's all fine, when we want proof we are left with assumptions and beliefs. Isn't that kinda religious? Taunting? Maybe a little, but isn't it what it is?

It takes 40 million years to shape a foot to hooves. It takes 10 millions of years for humanoids to evolve a brain sufficient to interact with nature like no other creature before.
We see it happen, ... The animations are far off, the way they animate stuff on national geographic for kids is just not supported by sufficient facts to draw pictures like that.

Again, this is simply an argument from ignorance. The fossil record is going to be incomplete by its nature. Yet we keep filling it in. If the theory of evolution was wrong don't you think we would find fossils that tell us it is wrong? Instead every new fossil that we find fits the evolutionary paradigm. The "gaps" between fossils keeps getting smaller and smaller. The gaps where the god of the gaps can hide are slowly disappearing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

ERV is a virus that causes muations such as cancer or aids. My words.

Nope, wrong. Try again.