10 lost tribes???

[dfw69]

Ten Lost Tribes? (Messianic Judaism)

 

[dfw69]

Anyone know for sure how many times has Judah been scattered in history?

 

[KrAZeD]

The Two Kingdoms of Israel | Jewish Virtual Library


One could see the holocaust event count as a scattering as well.

 

[dfw69]

The Two Kingdoms of Israel | Jewish Virtual Library


One could see the holocaust event count as a scattering as well.

I don't believe so ...

What is the scattering and regathering of Israel referring to?

The Scattering of Both Tribes

"Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there were four horns. So I said to the angel who was speaking with me, "What are these?" And he answered me, "These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem." Then YHVH showed me four craftsmen. I said, "What are these coming to do?" And he said, "These are the horns which have scattered Judah so that no man lifts up his head; but these craftsmen have come to terrify them, to throw down the horns of the nations who have lifted up their horns against the land of Judah in order to scatter it." Zechariah 1:18-21

Notice it says that 4 horns scatter Jerusalem Israel and Judah ... That these 4 gentile horns rise up against Jerusalem as well as Israel and Judah

1) Assyria scattered Israel (not Judah or Jerusalem )
2) Babylon scattered both Israel and Judah and Jerusalem (2nd scattering for Israel 1st for Jerusalem and Judah )
3) Rome scattered both Israel and Judah and Jerusalem (3rd scattering for Israel and 2nd for Judah and Israel )

That leaves one more scattering of Israel and 2 more for Judah and Jerusalem

If you add hitlers gathering of converts of Judaism as well as the Jews .. You still have 2 scatterings of Jerusalem left and none for Israel and one more for Judah ....but....

I believe that the scripture is refering to the whole nation of Israel being scattered from thier homeland... So hitler would not count because he oppress those already in his kingdom .. Those already scattered

So we still have 1 more scattering for Israel from thier homeland and 2 more for Judah and Jerusalem

Which gives me the question ..Why is Israel ( kingdom of the north) not scattered during the days of the final anti christ ??? Because the 10 kingdoms are under him already ... They come to destroy Judah and Jerusalem in the last
Days

But now... What about the scattering before this??? The final scattering for Israel and 3rd for Jerusalem and Judah? .....Anyone?

The Gathering of Both Tribes Together

Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth." Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, And those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim." Isaiah 11:11-13

By the hand of god (as he did in Egypt) god will gather the whole house of Israel back to thier homeland after the horns are ended

Notice how god say from shinar his people come out ... Yep Babylon the city

In the last days god will call his people out of Babylon

 

[KrAZeD]

Judah only

Scattering from
-Chaldeans(can't find an actual history date) though it's appearing the reference is just a little different from actual "babylon".
-Assyrians-730 bc
-Egypt- tribute state-701-625 bc
-Babylon- tribute state- 625-601bc
-Nebuchadnezzar(2x)596bc
-Rome-67-70ad

Zach
17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
-- this doesn't mean that 100% of the inhabitants must disappear from the land. Just that they lose the right to sovereign rule of their nation and cities.

If the horns represent the scattering- the carpenters represent the rebuilding, then the holocaust affects could apply, however what is more important is the most recent "carpenter" would G around 1948(nation in 1 day) or 1967(6day war).

Hitler was attempting to eradicate all Jews. Jews fled everywhere for safety- it "could" apply if no other aspects meet the prophecy requirement,fulfillment. While he was never actually able to enter judah/Israel those living their were aware of what "was" coming and many were fleeing to "safer" countries. Though we can agree this is a plausibility not a definite fulfillment.

Though what could also potentially apply is zach 14:4 for the final scattering of both Israel and Judah, though I'm inclined to believe Israel will G a unified nation at that time.

And if one looks at Isaiah 11:12 either the events of 536bc(Cyrus) are the second gathering or the church is. Either way that leads one to see the roman events signifying at least the 3rd if not 4th event.

 

[dfw69]

Judah only

Scattering from
-Chaldeans(can't find an actual history date) though it's appearing the reference is just a little different from actual "babylon".
-Assyrians-730 bc
-Egypt- tribute state-701-625 bc
-Babylon- tribute state- 625-601bc
-Nebuchadnezzar(2x)596bc
-Rome-67-70ad

Zach
17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
-- this doesn't mean that 100% of the inhabitants must disappear from the land. Just that they lose the right to sovereign rule of their nation and cities.

If the horns represent the scattering- the carpenters represent the rebuilding, then the holocaust affects could apply, however what is more important is the most recent "carpenter" would G around 1948(nation in 1 day) or 1967(6day war).

Hitler was attempting to eradicate all Jews. Jews fled everywhere for safety- it "could" apply if no other aspects meet the prophecy requirement,fulfillment. While he was never actually able to enter judah/Israel those living their were aware of what "was" coming and many were fleeing to "safer" countries. Though we can agree this is a plausibility not a definite fulfillment.

Though what could also potentially apply is zach 14:4 for the final scattering of both Israel and Judah, though I'm inclined to believe Israel will G a unified nation at that time.

And if one looks at Isaiah 11:12 either the events of 536bc(Cyrus) are the second gathering or the church is. Either way that leads one to see the roman events signifying at least the 3rd if not 4th event.

Huh?.. Wait .. Who are the 4 horns again?

 

[KrAZeD]

I'm not trying to debate the meaning of the horns honestly. I agree they represent nations or an individual, I just took the implication of their refrence to the scattering and losing reign over the land and provided you historic data regarding your question.

An from a longer glance at the passages, their will G one in the last days with our Lord seperating the mountain and creating a valley for all to flee into. Wether that's the fourth or an extra, that's past my understanding.

 

[ebedmelech]

What tribes are lost? It's pretty much fiction. Ezekiel 37:15-23 is in order.

 

[dfw69]

I'm not trying to debate the meaning of the horns honestly. I agree they represent nations or an individual, I just took the implication of their refrence to the scattering and losing reign over the land and provided you historic data regarding your question.

An from a longer glance at the passages, their will G one in the last days with our Lord seperating the mountain and creating a valley for all to flee into. Wether that's the fourth or an extra, that's past my understanding.

No problem.. Thanks for sharing.. Peace

 

[dfw69]

What tribes are lost? It's pretty much fiction. Ezekiel 37:15-23 is in order.

There are those that believe that the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel have lost their identity ... That they mingled with Gentiles and are no longer Jewish ... Being lost

And they teach that Jesus went to them ... The lost sheep of the house of Israel ... That Jesus went to Gentiles to gather them back into the fold... Who they say are the lost tribes of Israel ... And they make Gentiles into Israel ..if they serve the law of course .. Can't be in the house of Israel without the law .. That's insane..

Anyway truth is Israel is Israel and Gentiles are Gentiles..

And both are called to believe the gospel

 

[riverrat]

There are those that believe that the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel have lost their identity ... That they mingled with Gentiles and are no longer Jewish ... Being lost

And they teach that Jesus went to them ... The lost sheep of the house of Israel ... That Jesus went to Gentiles to gather them back into the fold... Who they say are the lost tribes of Israel ... And they make Gentiles into Israel ..if they serve the law of course .. Can't be in the house of Israel without the law .. That's insane..

Anyway truth is Israel is Israel and Gentiles are Gentiles..

And both are called to believe the gospel

And then both become a part of the body of Christ!

 

[dfw69]

And then both become a part of the body of Christ!

Gentiles who believe in the faith that Jesus is the messiah who has fulfilled the law for you giving you his righteousness and to obey his new laws .. Are of the body of Christ

Israel ... All 12 tribes ... Must do the same to be in the body of Christ

In the body of Christ we are no longer gentile or Jew but one nation .. A citizenship of the most high

 

[ebedmelech]

There are those that believe that the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel have lost their identity ... That they mingled with Gentiles and are no longer Jewish ... Being lost

I know...however that's not accurate.

And they teach that Jesus went to them ... The lost sheep of the house of Israel ... That Jesus went to Gentiles to gather them back into the fold... Who they say are the lost tribes of Israel ... And they make Gentiles into Israel ..if they serve the law of course .. Can't be in the house of Israel without the law .. That's insane..

This is the error. The "lost sheep of the house of Israel" agrees with Ezekiel 37. God put them back in the land as one nation. The "lost sheep is the nation" Jesus came as their promised messiah and they rejected him.

Anyway truth is Israel is Israel and Gentiles are Gentiles..

That's true for some...but Romans 2, 4, 9, 10, and 11 clearly says it's not accurate.

And both are called to believe the gospel

That's right...now think about this...if both are called to believe the gospel...what's the difference? If either don't believe the gospel they're lost.

So now...if Paul teaches God is choosing out "A PEOPLE" for his name...somethings wrong.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Two Kingdoms of Israel | Jewish Virtual Library
One could see the holocaust event count as a scattering as well.

Here is another rather good commentary on that:

All Articles - Here a little, there a little - Index

The Two Houses Of Israel - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy
THE TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL

There is a general error among most Christians and a lot of Jews regarding the identity of the children of Israel. Because of a general lack of historical understanding, most Christians believe that the Jews are ALL of the people chosen by God in the Old Testament.
Additionally, many Christians believe that they belong to an unrelated group known biblically as "Gentiles." In this article, we are going to show from the Scriptures that both of these conclusions are founded on incorrect assumptions.

From the very beginning of the split, the northern kingdom perverted and outright broke God's Laws. King Jeroboam immediately began to change the Law. He removed the Levites from the priesthood, which caused most of them to return to the southern kingdom of Judah (I Kings 13:33; II Chr. 11:13-14). He also set up calf idols at Bethel and Dan, set up shrines on high places, and changed the time and place for observing the Feasts of God (I Kings 12:26-33). These sinful innovations plagued the House of Israel throughout their existence.

II KINGS 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone.

Although God punished both houses, the Jews have always been recognized as His people for ONE reason. Unlike the assimilated House of Israel, they have strived to keep the sign that He said would forever identify the children of Israel:...........

CONCLUSION

The prophesied regathering of all the tribes of Israel is a process, not a singular event. This process began after the resurrection of Messiah Yeshua, and has slowly but surely been taking place for nearly 2,000 years. At this time, most Jews (the House of Judah) don't accept Yeshua as the Messiah. Conversely, most Christians (the House of Israel) don't accept the necessity of keeping Torah (the Law).
However, the Israel of God (Gal. 6:16), made up of those from both houses who are standing in the gap, accept both Yeshua and the Torah (Rev. 12:17; 14:12). YHVH will use those He has called to help reunite Judah and Ephraim under the Messiah in the land of Israel. Soon, Jews and Christians will recognize the respective flaws in their belief systems. Both houses of Israel will repent and be joined together once again, as Ezekiel foretold some 2,600 years ago (Eze. 37:15-28).................

.

 

[dfw69]

I know...however that's not accurate.

This is the error. The "lost sheep of the house of Israel" agrees with Ezekiel 37. God put them back in the land as one nation. The "lost sheep is the nation" Jesus came as their promised messiah and they rejected him.

That's true for some...but Romans 2, 4, 9, 10, and 11 clearly says it's not accurate.


That's right...now think about this...if both are called to believe the gospel...what's the difference? If either don't believe the gospel they're lost.

So now...if Paul teaches God is choosing out "A PEOPLE" for his name...somethings wrong.

Yes God is choosing a people of every nation

But what about the lost.. Will god not settle affairs of this world?... We he not place a king over the earth ?... This is my point.. That god will put down gov of the world to establish a kingdom on earth .. This kingdom was offered to the Jews as promised... They rejected their promise messiah and king.... Their king was crucified... But their king is alive.. Rose from the dead.. And will return to her as promised

They ask now will you restore the kingdom .. He did not say .. No .. He said it is not for you to know the appointed day for that

There is an appointed day for Christ to come and rule as king of the Jews ...

 

[ebedmelech]

Yes God is choosing a people of every nation

But what about the lost.. Will god not settle affairs of this world?...

Jesus does that on the last day.

We he not place a king over the earth ?... This is my point.. That god will put down gov of the world to establish a kingdom on earth .. This kingdom was offered to the Jews as promised... They rejected their promise messiah and king.... Their king was crucified... But their king is alive.. Rose from the dead.. And will return to her as promised

Jesus returns for all who are saved...not just Israel.

They ask now will you restore the kingdom .. He did not say .. No .. He said it is not for you to know the appointed day for that

Jesus didn't answer at all. He said it was not for them to know. He then told them to wait for the promise of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit used them to write scripture by revelation.

There is an appointed day for Christ to come and rule as king of the Jews ...

God already has! Matthew 28:18...Jesus received ALL POWER in heaven AND on EARTH.

Peter said it pretty clear in his Pentecost sermon in Acts 2:32-36:
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”


Try again Colossians 1:17-20:
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

When Jesus comes it's over...who do you think is in control right now?

 

[dfw69]

Jesus does that on the last day.

Jesus returns for all who are saved...not just Israel.

Specifically Israel .. His feet will stand on mt olives.. The mount will split in half.. The armies of the 10 kingdoms come to Jerusalem .. They have gathered at mt Megiddo. ... And Jesus returns to save her from destruction

Jesus didn't answer at all. He said it was not for them to know. He then told them to wait for the promise of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit used them to write scripture by revelation.

He said times and seasons .. Referring to appointed feast of The Lord .. Jews know and understand this .. The times and seasons of the feast

Feast are called visitation days.. The days when god visits his people ... On a specific feast day The Lord comes ... No one know what day that will be .. It's appoint and only for god to know when

God already has! Matthew 28:18...Jesus received ALL POWER in heaven AND on EARTH.

Peter said it pretty clear in his Pentecost sermon in Acts 2:32-36:
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”


Try again Colossians 1:17-20:
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

When Jesus comes it's over...who do you think is in control right now?

God is in control

And god will send Jesus to rule on earth and establish a kingdom... And put down gov of the world

The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of Christ .. Literally ... When he returns

 

[ebedmelech]

Specifically Israel .. His feet will stand on mt olives.. The mount will split in half.. The armies of the 10 kingdoms come to Jerusalem .. They have gathered at mt Megiddo. ... And Jesus returns to save her from destruction

This is apocalyptic language dfw69! The splitting of the moutain is the judgment language of separation. The struggle is NOT against flesh and blood. Notice again that you read of there being no light.

He said times and seasons .. Referring to appointed feast of The Lord .. Jews know and understand this .. The times and seasons of the feast

Feast are called visitation days.. The days when god visits his people ... On a specific feast day The Lord comes ... No one know what day that will be .. It's appoint and only for god to know when

Notice it said nothing of a kingdom for Israel. You're sticking a lot in there but the feasts were the Old Covenant....no feasts in the New Covenant because Christ fulfilled them...Colossian 2:16, 17.

God is in control

No Jesus is in control. He received the reign from the Father. Hebrews 1.

And god will send Jesus to rule on earth and establish a kingdom... And put down gov of the world

The Kindom is already establihed...it comes to earth with the Lord, but it already is!

The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of Christ .. Literally ... When he returns

Have you read that passage carefully? It happened when Christ was raised. Revelation 11:15-19 happend when Jesus was raised. He took power and BEGAN to reign.

Matthew 28:18 rings loud and clear!

 

[Old Timer]

Revelation 11:15-19 happend when Jesus was raised.

LOL...

You have the Decoder Ring..

Don't you... come on...

Admit it..

 

[dfw69]

LOL...

You have the Decoder Ring..

Don't you... come on...

Admit it..

I want one too ..