A Preterist Hermeneutic

[A New World]

A Preterist Hermeneutic

Most are familiar with those who understand the Old Testament from a pre-Christian/Jewish perspective. They tell us we should make every attempt to view Scripture from the perspectives of the writers and the original audiences. They devote much time and effort toward that goal. That's admirable, logical, and respectable. We also recommend the consideration of audience relevance when it comes to interpreting the New Testament.

My view of the Preterist hermeneutic is as follows.

There's a familiar statement with which I agree though this may not be an exact quote: "The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed."

Just as we are to "interpret the obscure in light of the clear," I believe the proper hermeneutical approach is to interpret the Old Testament in light of the New Testament.

We are all aware that the book of Daniel was sealed and not to be revealed until the time of the end (Dan. 12:9). There were also mysteries not revealed until the time of the apostles. (Rom. 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7; 1 Cor. 15:51; Eph. chapters 1,3,5,6 etc.)

Peter, writing to the twelve tribes of the dispersion (the same audience as the book of James), said they were, at that time, being "kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." It was in the last time they would be "receiving the end of [their] faith—the salvation of [their] souls." (1 Pet. 1:5,9)

He told his audience, "gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Peter 1:13 NKJV)

He said, in regard to the OT prophets, "To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into." (I Peter 1:12 NKJV)

He also gave time statements (1 Pet. 4:5,7,17) that would later cause unbelievers to scoff at the words of imminence spoken by the inspired apostle saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” (2 Peter 3:4 NKJV)

Many OT prophecies are cited by the apostles. Sometimes they quote them verbatim, other times they do not. However, the fact that God raised up apostles to reveal the fulfillment of OT prophecies in the last days was evidence that the age was coming to a close.

The fulfillment of prophecy taking place during that generation included the building of the Messianic temple, a spiritual house, with a Chief Cornerstone, living stones, a holy priesthood, and spiritual sacrifices. Paul also confirmed the building of this temple (2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:19-22).

Though it was a mystery in the Old Testament as to the manner of the restoration of the whole house of Israel in the last days, it was revealed through the apostles.

The apostles revealed that the calling of the Gentiles, their being grafted in with the Jews in the last days, and all being raised up into one spiritual body, the body of Christ, was the fulfillment of prophecy. (Is. 11:10-12; 49:6-8)

Isaiah prophesied,"Thus says the LORD : “In an acceptable time I have heard You, And in the day of salvation I have helped You; I will preserve You and give You As a covenant to the people, To restore the earth, To cause them to inherit the desolate heritages" (Isaiah 49:8 NKJV)

Paul announced the time of the fulfillment, "For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:2 NKJV)

Since it's a demonstrable fact that the first century AD generation was living in the last days, the logical conclusion is the age in which they were living was about to come to an end. In other words, they were living in the time of the end prophesied by Daniel. Jesus, speaking to His disciples, effectively 'unsealed' the book of Daniel, further proof they were living in the time of the end. (Mt. 24:15)

Another very important aspect of the Preterist hermeneutic is paying careful attention to the time frame references and how they were relevant to that generation. Above I called attention to a few given by Peter. I think there's a thread here on CF that lists over one hundred NT time frame references.

With this hermeneutic in mind, I will turn my attention to a discussion of the term "heavens and earth."

Jesus said,"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17, 18 NKJV)

He said not one jot or tittle of the Law would pass away until "heaven and earth" passed away. If heaven and earth have not passed away, all of the Mosaic Law is still in effect. There is not one person under the Mosaic Law today nor has there been since it passed away.

Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, answered the disciples question concerning the end of their age. He described various things for them to expect in their lifetime. He also gave a few time indicators. The gospel would be preached in all the world, and all the things He described would occur before their generation came to an end.

Paul said the gospel had been made known to all nations, had gone out to all the world, and it had been preached to every creature under heaven. (Rom. 16:25,26; Col. 1:5,6,23)

Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled in Paul's lifetime, during the time of the last days generation.

Isaiah spoke figuratively of the establishment of the Old Covenant people: "And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.” (Isaiah 51:16 NKJV)

The writer to the Hebrews said the Law, the Old Covenant, was "ready to vanish away." (Heb. 8:13) The word "ready" is a word that expresses imminence. It was a time statement. We know that the age of the Old Law came to an end. The conclusion is, the Old Covenant order was spoken of figuratively as "heavens and earth." When the Law and the prophets were fulfilled "heaven and earth" passed away.

This was also spoken of by Peter: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." (II Peter 3:10 NKJV)

The word Peter used for elements (stoicheion) is the same word used by Paul in Gal. 4:9 to speak of the "weak and beggarly elements" of the Law.

John was shown the very moment the Old order passed away and also the full arrival of the New heavens and earth, the New order. (Rev. 21:1-4)

In my opinion there is no reason for us to attempt to interpret the Old Testament through any other perspective than the inspired New Testament writers. Much more could be added. I hope both Futurists and Preterists here will join the discussion and add their perspectives.

 

[Der Alte]

A Preterist Hermeneutic
. . .
Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, answered the disciples question concerning the end of their age. He described various things for them to expect in their lifetime. He also gave a few time indicators. The gospel would be preached in all the world, and all the things He described would occur before their generation came to an end.

Paul said the gospel had been made known to all nations, had gone out to all the world, and it had been preached to every creature under heaven. (Rom. 16:25,26; Col. 1:5,6,23)

Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled in Paul's lifetime, during the time of the last days generation.

Isaiah spoke figuratively of the establishment of the Old Covenant people: "And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.” (Isaiah 51:16 . . .

Speaking of hermeneutics, I have already addressed this in the other thread. Your proof text Matthew 5:17, 18 depends on the meaning of Isa 51:16. As I have shown from the pre-Christian Targum and the Septuagint, the Jews did not understand God to be calling Israel "heaven and earth, in Isa 51:16."

LXX Isa 51:16 I will put my words into thy mouth, and I will shelter thee under the shadow of mine hand, with which I fixed the sky, and founded the earth: and the Lord shall say to Sion, Thou art my people.

Targum isa 51:16 1 have put the words of my prophecy in thy mouth, and with the shadow of my power have I protected thee, to raise up the nation, concerning which it hath been promised that they shall be as many as the stars of heaven, and to establish the congregation it has been promised concerning them, that they shall multiply like the dust of the earth, and to say to the inhabitants of Zion, They are my people.​

That is the hermeneutic for this verse. Israel considered themselves to be superior to all other nations. Isaiah 51 was the perfect place for them to prove that God considered them to be superior by calling them "heaven and earth," in some sense. But they did not understand God to be calling them that.

In the below verses God figuratively calls on heaven and earth to witness/testify against Israel for thier transgressions. God does not call on heaven and earth to witness against Israel 3 times, then call them "heaven and earth" in another verse.

Deu 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you [Israel] this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record [testify] this day against you, [Israel] that I have set before you [Israel] life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deu 31:28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record [testify] against them​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A Preterist Hermeneutic

Most are familiar with those who understand the Old Testament from a pre-Christian/Jewish perspective. They tell us we should make every attempt to view Scripture from the perspectives of the writers and the original audiences. They devote much time and effort toward that goal. That's admirable, logical, and respectable.
We also recommend the consideration of audience relevance when it comes to interpreting the New Testament.

My view of the Preterist hermeneutic is as follows.

There's a familiar statement with which I agree though this may not be an exact quote: "The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed."

Just as we are to "interpret the obscure in light of the clear," I believe the proper hermeneutical approach is to interpret the Old Testament in light of the New Testament.

In my opinion there is no reason for us to attempt to interpret the Old Testament through any other perspective than the inspired New Testament writers.
Much more could be added. I hope both Futurists and Preterists here will join the discussion and add their perspectives.

Preterist checking in.

I posted this on another thread and tho there are many good preterist commentaries on Revelation, this one simply hit the nail on the head, IMHO.

It is a shame the apostate non-Christian Jews of today do not read it, then maybe many more of them would come to JESUS as we have.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588850-9/#post58429992

I find this person's view concerning the "allusions" found in the book of Revelation that are found in the Old Testament/Covenant rather fascinating.
Would anyone like to put down verses from Revelation and the verses from the OT/OC that are alluded to this? I think that would be fun. Thanks

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

While most everyone recognizes Revelation as symbolic, some folks argue it as being actual and non-symbolic, to the point of one man proposing that an actual red dragon with seven heads lurks in outer space! (It's true!). However, it's an indictment against modern Christianity's lack of biblical study to not immediately recognize the myriad of symbols in the Revelation that were taken from other internal biblical references.

As a former futurist, and other honest futurists must admit, I was conscious of the Revelation being about "The end of the world." It was about evil rising up. It was about horror coming. And I later realized it was precisely the opposite arena as to what the book said of it's own self! It reads that it is a Revelation of Jesus Christ.
But that is nothing like the impression I was getting from futurist teaching, and the impression I was GIVING people when I taught with a futuristic approach.

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament.
You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

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[A New World]

Speaking of hermeneutics, I have already addressed this in the other thread. Your proof text Matthew 5:17, 18 depends on the meaning of Isa 51:16. As I have shown from the pre-Christian Targum and the Septuagint, the Jews did not understand God to be calling Israel "heaven and earth, in Isa 51:16."

LXX Isa 51:16 I will put my words into thy mouth, and I will shelter thee under the shadow of mine hand, with which I fixed the sky, and founded the earth: and the Lord shall say to Sion, Thou art my people.

Targum isa 51:16 1 have put the words of my prophecy in thy mouth, and with the shadow of my power have I protected thee, to raise up the nation, concerning which it hath been promised that they shall be as many as the stars of heaven, and to establish the congregation it has been promised concerning them, that they shall multiply like the dust of the earth, and to say to the inhabitants of Zion, They are my people.​

That is the hermeneutic for this verse. Israel considered themselves to be superior to all other nations. Isaiah 51 was the perfect place for them to prove that God considered them to be superior by calling them "heaven and earth," in some sense. But they did not understand God to be calling them that.

In the below verses God figuratively calls on heaven and earth to witness/testify against Israel for thier transgressions. God does not call on heaven and earth to witness against Israel 3 times, then call them "heaven and earth" in another verse.

Deu 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you [Israel] this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record [testify] this day against you, [Israel] that I have set before you [Israel] life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deu 31:28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record [testify] against them​

There were many things Old Covenant Israel failed to understand. However, your opinion that they did not understand what Isaiah wrote is just that, your opinion. Instead of quoting two minority translations, why not exegete the actual words within the text?

Isaiah 51 was the perfect place for them to prove that God considered them to be superior by calling them "heaven and earth," in some sense.

This is an argument from silence. Why not deal with the context of what Isaiah did say? Do you only rely on commentaries or do you attempt to exegete and understand the meaning of a text? I've heard you quote translations, now what do you think Isaiah was saying?

My opinion is, there is only one way to understand this text: "And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:16 NKJV)

My exegesis of the phrase, "That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth," is that it refers only to Israel. Israel is Zion, they are the chosen people of God in this passage. According to Isaiah, when God established Israel as His people, He was planting the heavens and laying the foundations of the earth. That you deny the clear words and context of this passage because of extra-biblical, non-inspired sources has no impact at all on the inspired text.

Your agenda, an attempt to disprove Preterism, has blinded your ability to reason, at least in this instance.

The use of the term by Jesus and the New Testament writers proves that Isaiah's figurative use was correct. Jesus posited the passing away of the Mosaic Law and the fulfillment of the prophets as the time when heaven and earth pass away.
Peter and John followed using the exact language and posited the time as about to be, near, shortly and soon. John was shown the final end of the figurative first "heavens and earth" and the arrival of the Messianic kingdom, the New heavens and earth, the New Covenant bride, the church. (Rev. 21:1-4)

Again, though your presuppositions may never allow you to see it, AD 70 was the time of the end for the first heavens and earth, the Old Covenant age.

The passages in Deuteronomy are somewhat difficult to interpret, because they are further examples of figurative language.

This is my view: Moses main focus was Israel and her covenant with her creator. He gave exhortation and warnings meant to preserve her as the people of God in the land she was about to go in to possess.

How could God be calling on Israel to witness against Israel?
It was important that Israel be reminded of her history, where God brought her from, where she was headed, and her indispensable place in redemption history. Heaven and earth being called upon as a witness was not in any way referring to the physical universe.

In the context of Deut. 4, Moses told them: "(for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them...And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them; and He brought you out of Egypt with His Presence, with His mighty power" (Deuteronomy 4:31, 37 NKJV)

He was calling to mind all the patriarchs who had paved the way for them. They would be the witnesses to them throughout their generations.

Paul spoke of the importance of the preservation of Israel according to the flesh: "who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." (Romans 9:4, 5 NKJV)

After remembering all the heroes of faith, the writer of Hebrews gives a similar idea of witnesses for the people of God: "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us" (Hebrews 12:1 NKJV)

In my opinion, Heaven and earth represented the witnesses of those responsible for Israel being preserved and becoming the covenant people of God. So, could this have been Israel being called on to witness against Israel? It was the patriarchs of Israel, along with the Law of God (Deut. 31:26) being called upon as witnesses against Israel if she broke her covenant with God.

We must allow the light of the New Testament to inform us of the meaning of the Old Testament. We should never attempt to interpret Scripture from the limited view of preChristian thought.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Speaking of hermeneutics, I have already addressed this in the other thread. Your proof text Matthew 5:17, 18 depends on the meaning of Isa 51:16.
​

As I have shown from the pre-Christian Targum and the Septuagint, the Jews did not understand God to be calling Israel "heaven and earth, in Isa 51:16."
​

​

Who cares what they didn't understand? How has that helped them come to Jesus and to believe He fulfilled all the prophecies concerning them?

Only thru having the faith of Jesus and the Holy Spirit will the apostate non-Christian Jews understand, and when they do, they will probably understand it better than a lot of carnal Christians do today.:

Luk 10:21
In that hour was Jesus glad in the Spirit, and said, 'I do confess to thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that Thou didst hide these things from wise men and understanding, and didst reveal them to babes;
yes, Father, because so it became good pleasure before Thee.

Luk 24:45
Then opened he up their understanding to understand the Writings,


.

 

[Der Alte]

There were many things Old Covenant Israel failed to understand. However, your opinion that they did not understand what Isaiah wrote is just that, your opinion. Instead of quoting two minority translations, why not exegete the actual words within the text?

What the Jews failed to understand is not relevant to anything. They are not minority translations! It is not merely my opinion, it is an advised conclusion based on the historical evidence I have provided. Evidence you are trying to dismiss with a logical fallacy, poisoning the well, "It's a minority opinion therefore it is wrong." IOW you are trying to claim that the ancient Jews did not know what their Hebrew scriptures meant but you, who probably could not locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it, can correctly interpret them 2700 years +/- after the fact. You desperately need Isa 51:16 to mean God was calling Israel "heaven and earth" because without that the preterist false eisegesis of Matthew 5:17, 18 falls apart.

This is an argument from silence. Why not deal with the context of what Isaiah did say? Do you only rely on commentaries or do you attempt to exegete and understand the meaning of a text? I've heard you quote translations, now what do you think Isaiah was saying?

It is not an argument from silence. It is an argument based on historical evidence. The Jews took every opportunity to declare their superiority over other nations, but they did not use the preterist proof text Isa 51:16. What do I think Isaiah was saying, two distinct actions. 1. "plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth" 2. "say unto Zion: 'Thou art My people.'" As I said before which you have failed to address twice, God figuratively called on the heavens and the earth to witness/testify against Israel, 3 separate times and you would have us believe that later He addresses Israel as heaven and earth after He called on heavens and earth to witness against them. Desperate eisegesis to the highest degree. Preterists need God to call Israel "heaven and earth" in Isaiah so they can claim "heaven and earth" refers to Israel in Matthew 5:17, 18. Without that the entire Preterist house of cards collapses. And they have no, zero, none grammatical or historical evidence to support them.

My opinion is, there is only one way to understand this text: "And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:16 NKJV)

My exegesis of the phrase, "That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth," is that it refers only to Israel. Israel is Zion, they are the chosen people of God in this passage. According to Isaiah, when God established Israel as His people, He was planting the heavens and laying the foundations of the earth. That you deny the clear words and context of this passage because of extra-biblical, non-inspired sources has no impact at all on the inspired text.

Your opinion and your eisegesis NOT exegesis. You want exegesis read Keil and Delitszch Hebrew commentary. God had already "planted the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth"

K&D Isa 51:16 -
The promise, as the pledge of which Jehovah has staked His absolute power, to which everything must yield, now rises up to an eschatological height, from the historical point at which it began. “And I put my words into thy mouth, and in the shadow of my hand have I covered thee, to plant heavens, and to found an earth, and to say to Zion, Thou art my people.” It is a lofty calling, a glorious future, for the preparation and introduction of which Israel, although fallen as low as Isa_51:7 describes, has been equipped and kept in the shadow of unapproachable omnipotence. Jehovah has put His words into the mouth of this Israel - His words, the force and certainty of which are measured by His all-determining absoluteness. And what is the exalted calling which it is to subserve through the medium of these words, and for which it is preserved, without previously, or indeed at any time, passing away? We must not render it, “that thou mayest plant,” etc., with which the conclusion does not harmonize, viz., “that thou mayest say,” etc.; for it is not Israel who says this to Israel, but Jehovah says it to Israel. The planter, founder, speaker, is therefore Jehovah. It is God's own work, to which Israel is merely instrumentally subservient, by means of the words of God placed in its mouth, viz., the new creation of the world, and the restoration of Israel to favour; both of them, the former as well as the latter, regalia of God. The reference is to the last times. The Targum explains it thus: “to restore the people of whom it is said, They will be as numerous as the stars of heaven; and to perfect the church, of which it is said, They will be as numerous as the dust of the earth.” Knobel understands by this a completion of the theocracy, and a new arrangement of the condition of the world; Ewald, a new spiritual creation, of which the liberation of Israel is the first corner-stone. But the prophecy speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, in something more than a figurative sense, as a new creation of God (Isa_65:17).

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.​

This is referring to a new literal heaven and earth not a new Israel!

Your agenda, an attempt to disprove Preterism, has blinded your ability to reason, at least in this instance.

Nonsense! It is preterists who have the agenda. They desperately, frantically need for Is 51;16 to refer to Israel as "heaven and earth." Without that their proof text Matthew 5:17, 18 falls apart.

The use of the term by Jesus and the New Testament writers proves that Isaiah's figurative use was correct. Jesus posited the passing away of the Mosaic Law and the fulfillment of the prophets as the time when heaven and earth pass away.
Peter and John followed using the exact language and posited the time as about to be, near, shortly and soon. John was shown the final end of the figurative first "heavens and earth" and the arrival of the Messianic kingdom, the New heavens and earth, the New Covenant bride, the church. (Rev. 21:1-4)

Neither Jesus nor anyone else in the NT refers to Israel as "heaven and earth" Your Rev. 21:1-2. falls apart as well, "the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." When did the sea disappear? What is your proof text for the sea disappearing?

Again, though your presuppositions may never allow you to see it, AD 70 was the time of the end for the first heavens and earth, the Old Covenant age.

A minority heterodox opinon which did not exist until the 19th century.

The passages in Deuteronomy are somewhat difficult to interpret, because they are further examples of figurative language.

This is my view: Moses main focus was Israel and her covenant with her creator. He gave exhortation and warnings meant to preserve her as the people of God in the land she was about to go in to possess.

How could God be calling on Israel to witness against Israel?
It was important that Israel be reminded of her history, where God brought her from, where she was headed, and her indispensable place in redemption history. Heaven and earth being called upon as a witness was not in any way referring to the physical universe.

You willing say that God figuratively called Israel "heaven and earth," but you refuse to believe that God more than once figuratively called on "heaven and earth." Whatever excuse or convoluted eisegesis you make up God was figuratively calling on His creation, 3 times, to witness against Israel. In those verses "heaven and earth" does not refer to Israel. God would not call on heaven and earth to witness against Israel for their transgressions 3 times and later call that same rebellious Israel "heaven and earth." The historical evidence proves you wrong.

In the context of Deut. 4, Moses told them: "(for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them...And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them; and He brought you out of Egypt with His Presence, with His mighty power" (Deuteronomy 4:31, 37 NKJV)

He was calling to mind all the patriarchs who had paved the way for them. They would be the witnesses to them throughout their generations.

Total nonsense. Now you are trying to make heaven and earth refer to Israel's dead ancestors. So in preterist eisegesis the dead ancestors can witness against Israel but the universe can't.

Paul spoke of the importance of the preservation of Israel according to the flesh: "who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." (Romans 9:4, 5 NKJV)

Proves nothing about Israel supposedly being heaven and earth.

After remembering all the heroes of faith, the writer of Hebrews gives a similar idea of witnesses for the people of God: "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us" (Hebrews 12:1 NKJV)

Once again dead ancestors supposedly can be witnesses but the universe can't.

In my opinion, Heaven and earth represented the witnesses of those responsible for Israel being preserved and becoming the covenant people of God. So, could this have been Israel being called on to witness against Israel? It was the patriarchs of Israel, along with the Law of God (Deut. 31:26) being called upon as witnesses against Israel if she broke her covenant with God.

Your opinion without any grammatical or historical evidence does not mean anything. So far I am the only one who has provided either.

We must allow the light of the New Testament to inform us of the meaning of the Old Testament. We should never attempt to interpret Scripture from the limited view of preChristian thought.

Unless you might happen to find something which seems to support your preterist assumptions/presuppositions. Your NT proof texts fall on their face without Isa 51:16 and there is nothing but unsupported opinion which makes Israel "heaven and earth" in that verse.
test

 

[Der Alte]

Who cares what they didn't understand? How has that helped them come to Jesus and to believe He fulfilled all the prophecies concerning them?

Who cares what followers of the 19th century heterodox preterism understand? The fact that the Jews did not come to Jesus has no bearing on their interpretation of the Hebrew OT scriptures. It was prophesied that the Jews would reject the Messiah. This is a logical fallacy argument, poisoning the well. "The Jews did not accept Jesus so anything they say is wrong."

Only thru having the faith of Jesus and the Holy Spirit will the apostate non-Christian Jews understand, and when they do, they will probably understand it better than a lot of carnal Christians do today.:

More logical fallacy. Nothing you have said proves the Jewish translation of Isaiah 51:16 wrong. And all these logical fallacy arguments do not prove the preterist interpretation of Isa 51:16 right.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What the Jews failed to understand is not relevant to anything. They are not minority translations! depended on it, can correctly interpret them 2700 years +/- after the fact. You desperately need Isa 51:16 to mean God was calling Israel "heaven and earth" because without that the preterist false eisegesis of Matthew 5:17, 18 falls apart.

Unless you might happen to find something which seems to support your preterist assumptions/presuppositions. Your NT proof texts fall on their face without Isa 51:16 and there is nothing but unsupported opinion which makes Israel "heaven and earth" in that verse.
test

I find it interesting that the plural "heavens" is used in that passage and many other verses of the Bible.

YLT Search Results for "heavens" AND "earth"
"heavens" AND "earth"
occurs in 159 verses in the YLT.

Isa 1:2
Hear, O heavens and give ear, O earth/land, for YAHWEH hath spoken: Sons I have nourished and brought up, and they -- they transgressed against Me.

Isa 51:16
And I put My words in thy mouth, And with the shadow of My hand have covered thee,
To plant the heavens, and to found earth, And to say to Zion, 'My people art thou.'

Isa 65:17
For behold! I am creating new heavens and a new earth/land,
and the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

Isa 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth/land that I am making, are standing before Me, An affirmation of YAHWEH!
So remain doth your seed and your name.

However, only the singular "heaven" is used in Revelation. Not sure of the significance of this:

Rev 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth/land, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;


.

 

[A New World]

What the Jews failed to understand is not relevant to anything.

We agree.

They are not minority translations! It is not merely my opinion, it is an advised conclusion based on the historical evidence I have provided. Evidence you are trying to dismiss with a logical fallacy, poisoning the well, "It's a minority opinion therefore it is wrong." IOW you are trying to claim that the ancient Jews did not know what their Hebrew scriptures meant but you, who probably could not locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it, can correctly interpret them 2700 years +/- after the fact. You desperately need Isa 51:16 to mean God was calling Israel "heaven and earth" because without that the preterist false eisegesis of Matthew 5:17, 18 falls apart.

You gave the LXX translation of shamayim as "sky."

The word shamayim occurs 420 times in Hebrew and the majority of the time it is translated "heaven." 18 times it is translated "air."

So, in that sense, you have quoted an extreme minority translation of the verse.

Why would one search for, and offer as a refutation, a translation of the word "sky" when the overwhelming majority translate the Hebrew word as "heaven"?

Only you can answer that. I can't judge your motive, but it seems obvious.

What do I think Isaiah was saying, two distinct actions. 1. "plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth" 2. "say unto Zion: 'Thou art My people.'"

Of course you must treat the two phrases in the same verse as though they are not even in the same book. The fact is, there are four statements in the verse and the disputed phrase lies between numbers two and four. It is absolute nonsense to think these are "two distinct actions." The flow of the verse militates against your desperate, imagined distinction.

As I said before which you have failed to address twice, God figuratively called on the heavens and the earth to witness/testify against Israel, 3 separate times and you would have us believe that later He addresses Israel as heaven and earth after He called on heavens and earth to witness against them. Desperate eisegesis to the highest degree. Preterists need God to call Israel "heaven and earth" in Isaiah so they can claim "heaven and earth" refers to Israel in Matthew 5:17, 18. Without that the entire Preterist house of cards collapses. And they have no, zero, none grammatical or historical evidence to support them.

Of course I did address your point. Go back, read and you'll find it.

Isaiah did not even infer, in this passage (Is. 51:16), that, "God figuratively called on the heavens and the earth to witness/testify against Israel."

He said God's actions toward Israel was, "To plant the heavens and lay the foundations of the earth."

You are desperately attempting to avoid the obvious, but you can't add to or subtract from God's Word.

Keil and Delitszch Hebrew commentary. God had already "planted the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth"

K&D Isa 51:16 -
The promise, as the pledge of which Jehovah has staked His absolute power, to which everything must yield, now rises up to an eschatological height, from the historical point at which it began. “And I put my words into thy mouth, and in the shadow of my hand have I covered thee, to plant heavens, and to found an earth, and to say to Zion, Thou art my people.”​

Yes, Isaiah had an eschatological purpose that followed the historical point at which Israel began. As I've written before, the first century AD was the eschatology of Israel, the last days, the time of the end of the age. That generation witnessed the passing of the heavens and earth. Clearly eschatological.

It is a lofty calling, a glorious future, for the preparation and introduction of which Israel, although fallen as low as Isa_51:7 describes, has been equipped and kept in the shadow of unapproachable omnipotence. Jehovah has put His words into the mouth of this Israel - His words, the force and certainty of which are measured by His all-determining absoluteness. And what is the exalted calling which it is to subserve through the medium of these words, and for which it is preserved, without previously, or indeed at any time, passing away? We must not render it, “that thou mayest plant,” etc., with which the conclusion does not harmonize, viz., “that thou mayest say,” etc.; for it is not Israel who says this to Israel, but Jehovah says it to Israel. The planter, founder, speaker, is therefore Jehovah. It is God's own work, to which Israel is merely instrumentally subservient, by means of the words of God placed in its mouth

No argument here.

the new creation of the world, and the restoration of Israel to favour; both of them, the former as well as the latter, regalia of God. The reference is to the last times. The Targum explains it thus: “to restore the people of whom it is said, They will be as numerous as the stars of heaven; and to perfect the church, of which it is said, They will be as numerous as the dust of the earth.” Knobel understands by this a completion of the theocracy, and a new arrangement of the condition of the world; Ewald, a new spiritual creation, of which the liberation of Israel is the first corner-stone. But the prophecy speaks of a new heaven and a new earth, in something more than a figurative sense, as a new creation of God (Isa_65:17).

I agree the new creation was in reference to the last times. The New Testament places the last times and the end of the age in their generation. Therefore, the new creation would occur in that generation. The NT writers experienced it by faith (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), John saw its full arrival as the old creation passed (Rev. 21:1-4).

There were two:

Heavens and earths
Israels
Jerusalems
Priesthoods etc.

First the natural, then the spiritual.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Amen! This is the final removal of the Old Covenant age, it occurred in AD 70. From God's perspective, it is not remembered nor does it come into mind.

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying." (Isaiah 65:17-19 NKJV)

God was creating another Jerusalem. In this New Jerusalem there would be rejoicing and joy, no weeping or crying. This is what John associated with the arrival of the bride of Christ, the church.

"Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” (Revelation 21:2-5 NKJV)

John saw the former things (the Old Covenant age) passing away, and all things being made new (the New Covenant age).

This is referring to a new literal heaven and earth not a new Israel!

Not according to the text which says nothing about the physical planet and cosmos, but was all about Israel's covenantal relationship with her creator. This not literal language at all. The entire context of Isaiah 64-66 is the departure of Israel from her covenant with God, and her restoration.

Here's an sample:
“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’ To a nation that was not called by My name. I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts; (Isaiah 65:1, 2 NKJV)

There is nothing that even hints at God's disproval, and intent to remove, rocks, trees, insects, moons, stars, planets etc. This is all covenantal language. It speaks of the calling of the Gentiles, a nation that was not called by God's name, to create in Himself one new man, in the last days.

Neither Jesus nor anyone else in the NT refers to Israel as "heaven and earth" Your Rev. 21:1-2. falls apart as well, "the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." When did the sea disappear? What is your proof text for the sea disappearing?

This is another difficult passage to interpret fully. To understand the meaning of "sea" we must examine it's relevant usage in Revelation.

"Sea and land" most likely represented Gentile nations and Israel. This is dependent upon the context.

"Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed." (Revelation 8:8, 9 NKJV)

Futurists and Preterists see the great mountain representing a kingdom, the sea being symbolic of the Gentiles.

This relates back to Jesus' words in discourses and parables about the destruction of Jerusalem in Mt. 20-25:

"So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” (Matthew 21:21, 22 NKJV)

The believing remnant did receive this answer to their prayers. This confirms the idea that the Old Covenant kingdom of Israel was, "removed and cast into the sea."

The idea of "no more sea" (Rev. 21:1) is the Gentiles being brought into the same covenant with Israel as one new man in the new heavens and earth. Under the NC there would be no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Total nonsense. Now you are trying to make heaven and earth refer to Israel's dead ancestors. So in preterist eisegesis the dead ancestors can witness against Israel but the universe can't.

Once again dead ancestors supposedly can be witnesses but the universe can't.[Heb. 12:1]

It's nonsense that you're willing to accept pre-Christian opinion over an inspired NT writer.

The writer to the Hebrews conveyed the idea that Israel's heroes of the faith (ch. 11) were a "great a cloud of witnesses." These "dead ancestors" were to aid them in laying "aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnare(d)" them, and to "run with endurance the race that (wa)s set before" them.

Yes, they were portrayed as witnesses in a logical and reasonable sense. Your argument is with the author.

Here are a few common opinions on Heb. 12:1:

"WITH THE BACKDROP OF THE GREAT OLYMPIC RACES, THE WRITER SAYS, "SEEING THAT WE ARE COMPASSED ABOUT WITH SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES."
A. The references of the great cloud of witnesses takes us back to chapter 11.
1. The thought here is not that they are watching us run the race, but they are examples to us of those who have run the race and won.
2. We see the glories of their triumphs.
3. We see the factors that brought them victory.
4. We see the obstacles that they overcame in order to win."

[Some] "consider that these witnesses are not witnessing us as we conduct our lives. Instead, they are witnesses to us of faith and endurance."
(Chuck Smith)


"...the cloud of witnesses who have themselves been in the same contest, ought to increase our earnestness, testifying, as they do, to God's faithfulness."
(Jameison, Fausett & Brown)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We agree.

You gave the LXX translation of shamayim as "sky."

The word shamayim occurs 420 times in Hebrew and the majority of the time it is translated "heaven." 18 times it is translated "air."

So, in that sense, you have quoted an extreme minority translation of the verse.

Why would one search for, and offer as a refutation, a translation of the word "sky" when the overwhelming majority translate the Hebrew word as "heaven"?

I am more interested in how the word "air" is used in the NT.

Notice in Revelation 16:17 that the final vial is poured to the air, the same place which Paul uses in his Epistles.
Any symbolic significance to this? Thanks.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Greek Lexicon :: G109 (NKJV)
109. aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.

Ephesians 2:2
in which when ye walk in accord to the age of this world, in accord to the chief/ruler of the authority of the air,
of the spirit the now in-working in the sons of the stubborn

1Th 4:17
then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air,
and so always with the Lord we shall be;

Rev 16:17
And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, 'It hath become!'


.

 

[Der Alte]

We agree.

You gave the LXX translation of shamayim as "sky."

The word shamayim occurs 420 times in Hebrew and the majority of the time it is translated "heaven." 18 times it is translated "air."

So, in that sense, you have quoted an extreme minority translation of the verse.

Wrong! See this credible, verifiable historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Their view is that the Targum and LXX are not an extreme minority translation.

The Septuagint. [LXX]
The oldest and most important of all the versions made by Jews is that called "The Septuagint" ("Interpretatio septuaginta virorum" or "seniorum"). It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria; not of classic Greek, nor even of the Hellenistic style affected by Alexandrian writers.
… Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.
…
The quotations from the Old Testament found in the New are in the main taken from the Septuagint; and even where the citation is indirect the influence of this version is clearly seen. This will also explain in a measure the undoubted influence of the Septuagint upon the Syriac translation called the "Peshiṭta."
…The translation, which shows at times a peculiar ignorance of Hebrew usage, was evidently made from a codex which differed widely in places from the text crystallized by the Masorah. Its influence upon the Greek-speaking Jews must have been great. In course of time it came to be the canonical Greek Bible, as Luther's translation became the German, and the Authorized Version the English. It is the version used by the Jewish Hellenistic writers, Demetrius, Eupolemus, Artabanus, Aristeas, Ezekiel, and Aristobulus, as well as in the Book of Wisdom, the translation of Ben Sira, and the Jewish Sibyllines.

BIBLE TRANSLATIONS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Targum-Name.

The Aramaic translation of the Bible. It forms a part of the Jewish traditional literature, and in its inception is as early as the time of the Second Temple. The verb, תרגם from which the noun תרגום is formed, is used in Ezra iv. 7 in reference to a document written in Aramaic, although "Aramit" (A. V. "in the Syrian tongue") is added. In mishnaic phraseology the verb denotes a translation from Hebrew into any other language, as into Greek (see Yer. Ḳid. 59a, line 10, and Yer. Meg. 71c, line 11; both statements referring to the Greek version of Aquila); and the noun likewise may refer to the translation of the Biblical text into any language (see Meg. ii. 1; Shab. 115a). . . .
As an intepretation of the Hebrew text of the Bible the Targum had its place both in the synagogal liturgy and in Biblical instruction, while the reading of the Bible text combined with the Targum in the presence of the congregation assembled for public worship was an ancient institution which dated from the time of the Second Temple, and was traced back to Ezra by Rab when he interpreted the word "meforash" (Neh. viii. 8) as referring to the Targum (Meg. 3a; Ned. 37b; comp. Yer. Meg. 74d, line 48, Gen. R. xxxvi., end). . . .
It must be assumed, however, that the Targum was an integral part of the Biblical course of study designated as "Miḳra"; and Judah b. Ilai declared that only he who could read and translate the Bible might be regarded as a "ḳaryana," or one thoroughly versed in the Bible (Ḳid. 49a). In Sifre, Deut. 161 the Targum is mentioned as a branch of study intermediate between the Miḳra and the Mishnah.

TARGUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

Why would one search for, and offer as a refutation, a translation of the word "sky" when the overwhelming majority translate the Hebrew word as "heaven"?

Only you can answer that. I can't judge your motive, but it seems obvious.

Your motives are quite obvious. I did not look for a translation of the word "sky." I looked for what I request from others, and something you have yet to provide, credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

Of course you must treat the two phrases in the same verse as though they are not even in the same book. The fact is, there are four statements in the verse and the disputed phrase lies between numbers two and four. It is absolute nonsense to think these are "two distinct actions." The flow of the verse militates against your desperate, imagined distinction.

No credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support your assumption.

Isaiah did not even infer, in this passage (Is. 51:16), that, "God figuratively called on the heavens and the earth to witness/testify against Israel."

He said God's actions toward Israel was, "To plant the heavens and lay the foundations of the earth."

The correct word is "imply" not "infer." I did not say Isaiah called on the heaven and earth to witness /testify agaisnt Israel. I have found that it is most helpful to actually read a post before trying to answer it. Once again, God called on the heavens and earth to witness/testify against Israel three [3] times, in Deuteronomy, He is not going to call Israel "heaven and earth" later on.

Heaven and earth occur 21 times in Isaiah, never once can it refer to Israel. It ocurrs 3 times in chapter 51. Verses 6 and 13 clearly do no refer to Israel

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.​

You are desperately attempting to avoid the obvious, but you can't add to or subtract from God's Word.

I haven't added or substracted anything. I go by the maxim, if the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look of any other sense. Heaven and earth in Isa 51:16 refers to heaven and earth, not Israel. That is the plain sense.

 

[A New World]

Below is your response to my statement: "The fact that you rely on pre-Christian Jewish opinion is interesting in light of the fact that we have inspired New Testament commentary that was unavailable to them."

In most cases NT commentary is irrelevant. We do not use the NT to reinterpret the OT.

You couldn't be more wrong. The OT prophets themselves were unaware of the full meaning of the OT. There is no way you and your preChristian sources know more than they did.

Peter made this clear: "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into." (I Peter 1:10-12 NKJV)

Are you questioning the inspiration and the relevance of the NT? Jesus and the NT apostles, inspired commentators all, gave the true meaning of the OT. It certainly explains your reliance on preChristian thought since you reject the light of the NT and claim it is in most cases irrelevant in interpreting the OT.

When Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass from the Law until heaven and earth passed away, He gave the true meaning of "heaven and earth." The OC Law is gone, never to return. When the OC Law passed away, as the writer of Hebrews expressed it's imminent passing (Heb. 8:13), heaven and earth passed away. This is irrefutable unless you envision God's people under the Mosaic Law today.

And, when John was shown the passing away of heaven and earth, he posited it as near. In fact, the entire NT is written with the idea of an imminent end of the age.

Again, if you want to rely on those who certainly knew less than the uninformed OT prophets, you're free to do so. But, like them, you'll be in the dark until you are able to see the OT in light of the NT.

BTW, it doesn't matter if Is. 51:16 is translated "heaven" or "sky," Jesus said it would pass away at the passing of the Law. Fulfilled!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by A New World
We agree.

You gave the LXX translation of shamayim as "sky."

The word shamayim occurs 420 times in Hebrew and the majority of the time it is translated "heaven." 18 times it is translated "air."

So, in that sense, you have quoted an extreme minority translation of the verse.

Wrong! See this credible, verifiable historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Their view is that the Targum and LXX are not an extreme minority translation.

The Septuagint. [LXX]
The oldest and most important of all the versions made by Jews is that called "The Septuagint" ("Interpretatio septuaginta virorum" or "seniorum").

BIBLE TRANSLATIONS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Targum-Name.

The Aramaic translation of the Bible. It forms a part of the Jewish traditional literature, and in its inception is as early as the time of the Second Temple.
​

Heaven and earth occur 21 times in Isaiah, never once can it refer to Israel. It ocurrs 3 times in chapter 51. Verses 6 and 13 clearly do no refer to Israel

Below is your response to my statement: "The fact that you rely on pre-Christian Jewish opinion is interesting in light of the fact that we have inspired New Testament commentary that was unavailable to them."



You couldn't be more wrong. The OT prophets themselves were unaware of the full meaning of the OT. There is no way you and your preChristian sources know more than they did.

When Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass from the Law until heaven and earth passed away, He gave the true meaning of "heaven and earth." The OC Law is gone, never to return. When the OC Law passed away, as the writer of Hebrews expressed it's imminent passing (Heb. 8:13), heaven and earth passed away.
This is irrefutable unless you envision God's people under the Mosaic Law today.

Again, if you want to rely on those who certainly knew less than the uninformed OT prophets, you're free to do so.
But, like them, you'll be in the dark until you are able to see the OT in light of the NT.

BTW, it doesn't matter if Is. 51:16 is translated "heaven" or "sky," Jesus said it would pass away at the passing of the Law. Fulfilled!

You might as well be spitting into the wind with him and the other futurists.

Anywho, did you see this post concerning the Priests and 7 Trumpets shown in Joshua 6 and Rev 8?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827627/#post65834408
The 7 trumpets destruction of Jericho and Jerusalem



.

 

[Der Alte]

Wrong! See this credible, verifiable historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Their view is that the Targum and LXX are not an extreme minority translation.

The Septuagint. [LXX]
The oldest and most important of all the versions made by Jews is that called "The Septuagint" ("Interpretatio septuaginta virorum" or "seniorum"). It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria; not of classic Greek, nor even of the Hellenistic style affected by Alexandrian writers.
… Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.
…
The quotations from the Old Testament found in the New are in the main taken from the Septuagint; and even where the citation is indirect the influence of this version is clearly seen. This will also explain in a measure the undoubted influence of the Septuagint upon the Syriac translation called the "Peshiṭta."
…The translation, which shows at times a peculiar ignorance of Hebrew usage, was evidently made from a codex which differed widely in places from the text crystallized by the Masorah. Its influence upon the Greek-speaking Jews must have been great. In course of time it came to be the canonical Greek Bible, as Luther's translation became the German, and the Authorized Version the English. It is the version used by the Jewish Hellenistic writers, Demetrius, Eupolemus, Artabanus, Aristeas, Ezekiel, and Aristobulus, as well as in the Book of Wisdom, the translation of Ben Sira, and the Jewish Sibyllines.

BIBLE TRANSLATIONS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Targum-Name.

The Aramaic translation of the Bible. It forms a part of the Jewish traditional literature, and in its inception is as early as the time of the Second Temple. The verb, תרגם from which the noun תרגום is formed, is used in Ezra iv. 7 in reference to a document written in Aramaic, although "Aramit" (A. V. "in the Syrian tongue") is added. In mishnaic phraseology the verb denotes a translation from Hebrew into any other language, as into Greek (see Yer. Ḳid. 59a, line 10, and Yer. Meg. 71c, line 11; both statements referring to the Greek version of Aquila); and the noun likewise may refer to the translation of the Biblical text into any language (see Meg. ii. 1; Shab. 115a). . . .
As an intepretation of the Hebrew text of the Bible the Targum had its place both in the synagogal liturgy and in Biblical instruction, while the reading of the Bible text combined with the Targum in the presence of the congregation assembled for public worship was an ancient institution which dated from the time of the Second Temple, and was traced back to Ezra by Rab when he interpreted the word "meforash" (Neh. viii. 8) as referring to the Targum (Meg. 3a; Ned. 37b; comp. Yer. Meg. 74d, line 48, Gen. R. xxxvi., end). . . .
It must be assumed, however, that the Targum was an integral part of the Biblical course of study designated as "Miḳra"; and Judah b. Ilai declared that only he who could read and translate the Bible might be regarded as a "ḳaryana," or one thoroughly versed in the Bible (Ḳid. 49a). In Sifre, Deut. 161 the Targum is mentioned as a branch of study intermediate between the Miḳra and the Mishnah.

TARGUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

Your motives are quite obvious. I did not look for a translation of the word "sky." I looked for what I request from others, and something you have yet to provide, credible, verifiable, historical evidence.

No credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support your assumption.

The correct word is "imply" not "infer." I did not say Isaiah called on the heaven and earth to witness /testify agaisnt Israel. I have found that it is most helpful to actually read a post before trying to answer it. Once again, God called on the heavens and earth to witness/testify against Israel three [3] times, in Deuteronomy, He is not going to call Israel "heaven and earth" later on.

Heaven and earth occur 21 times in Isaiah, never once can it refer to Israel. It occurs 3 times in chapter 51. Verses 6 and 13 clearly do no refer to Israel

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.​

I haven't added or substracted anything. I go by the maxim, if the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look of any other sense. Heaven and earth in Isa 51:16 refers to heaven and earth, not Israel. That is the plain sense.

Below is your response to my statement: "The fact that you rely on pre-Christian Jewish opinion is interesting in light of the fact that we have inspired New Testament commentary that was unavailable to them."

You couldn't be more wrong. The OT prophets themselves were unaware of the full meaning of the OT. There is no way you and your preChristian sources know more than they did.

Peter made this clear: "Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into." (I Peter 1:10-12 NKJV)

1 Peter 1:10-12 does not prove that "heaven and earth" in Isa 51:16 refers to Israel. The ECF never thought heaven and earth referred to Israel.

Are you questioning the inspiration and the relevance of the NT? Jesus and the NT apostles, inspired commentators all, gave the true meaning of the OT. It certainly explains your reliance on preChristian thought since you reject the light of the NT and claim it is in most cases irrelevant in interpreting the OT.

Please show me where virtually everything must be interpreted figuratively to make it line up with 19th century doctrines? You have yet to prove from any source except your own assumptions/presuppositions that the LXX and Targum Isa 51:16 are wrong.

When Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass from the Law until heaven and earth passed away, He gave the true meaning of "heaven and earth." The OC Law is gone, never to return. When the OC Law passed away, as the writer of Hebrews expressed it's imminent passing (Heb. 8:13), heaven and earth passed away. This is irrefutable unless you envision God's people under the Mosaic Law today.

Heaven and earth NEVER refers to Israel. Never! Preterists desperately need for Isa 51:16 to refer to Israel without that their entire house of cards collapses.

And, when John was shown the passing away of heaven and earth, he posited it as near. In fact, the entire NT is written with the idea of an imminent end of the age.

The early church including the disciples of John Ignatius and Polycarp and Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, did not consider Matt 24 to be fulfilled.

Again, if you want to rely on those who certainly knew less than the uninformed OT prophets, you're free to do so. But, like them, you'll be in the dark until you are able to see the OT in light of the NT.

As you are in the dark deperately trying to make Isa 51:16 support 19th century pretrist assumptions/presuppositions.

BTW, it doesn't matter if Is. 51:16 is translated "heaven" or "sky," Jesus said it would pass away at the passing of the Law. Fulfilled!

That is correct Jesus said the literal heaven and the literal earth would pass away. Jesus never so much as hinted that heaven and earth refers to Israel. And He should know.

Heaven and earth occur 21 times in Isaiah, never once can it refer to Israel. It occurs 3 times in chapter 51. Verses 6 and 13 clearly do no refer to Israel. God does not refer to the literal heaven and earth twice then 3 vss. later call Israel heaven and earth.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Isa 51:13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Wrong! See this credible, verifiable historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Their view is that the Targum and LXX are not an extreme minority translation.

​

Btw, may I ask what your own eschatological view is concerning the end time? That way I would know better where you stand.
[I am and always have been a Preterist.]


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[Der Alte]

Btw, may I ask what your own eschatological view is concerning the end time? That way I would know better where you stand.
[I am and always have been a Preterist.].

I believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is yet future.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

I have not seen any historical evidence that any of this happened, just supposition.

1. after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
2. and the moon shall not give her light,
3. and the stars shall fall from heaven,
4. and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
5. appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
6. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
7. and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
8. he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
9. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
10. they shall gather together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other​

The word heaven occurs six times in these verses. Do these oocurrences refer to the literal heaven or to Israel?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is yet future.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

I have not seen any historical evidence that any of this happened, just supposition.

Thanks.
That is the position of most Partial Preterists.

How much of Revelation do you view as fulfilled?


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[A New World]

You might as well be spitting in to the win with him and the other futurists.

Anywho, did you see this post concerning the Priests and 7 Trumpets shown in Joshua 6 and Rev 8?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827627/#post65834408
The 7 trumpets destruction of Jericho and Jerusalem



.

I think you're right. We are going in circles but hopefully it's helpful to someone who is searching for answers.

I've never discussed these issues with one who places more importance on the inferior covenant trying to understand it without the benefit of the true Light.

Thanks for the note. I'll check out that thread. May God continue to bless the pursuit of truth.

 

[parousia70]

I have not seen any historical evidence that any of this happened, just supposition.

1. after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
2. and the moon shall not give her light,
3. and the stars shall fall from heaven,
4. and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:​

What evedence do you have that any of this happened?:

Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

This is Isaiah discussing would would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)
The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC.

Show us the historical evidence that the events Isaiah associated with this event (sun & moon darkening, stars not giving light, heavens and earth shaking) took place.

5. appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
6. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
7. and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
8. he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
9. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
10. they shall gather together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other

The word heaven occurs six times in these verses. Do these oocurrences refer to the literal heaven or to Israel?

Those my only two choices?
Lets see...

vs 5 = Literal heaven (not the sky) but the Heaven that is the Abode of God

vs 7 = Literal Heaven (not the sky) but the Heaven that is the Abode of God

vs 9 = Literal Heaven (not the sky) but the Heaven that is the Abode of God

 

[Der Alte]

What evedence do you have that any of this happened?:

Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

This is Isaiah discussing would would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)
The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC.

Show us the historical evidence that the events Isaiah associated with this event (sun & moon darkening, stars not giving light, heavens and earth shaking) took place.

I have already addressed this. You answered your own question. "The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC." Everything described can be explained by natural occurrences.

"For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine." Eclipse, dark clouds and/or smoke.

"Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place," Thunder storms, tornadoes, and earthquakes.

Those my only two choices?
Lets see...

vs 5 = Literal heaven (not the sky) but the Heaven that is the Abode of God

vs 7 = Literal Heaven (not the sky) but the Heaven that is the Abode of God

vs 9 = Literal Heaven (not the sky) but the Heaven that is the Abode of God

Partly right, partly wrong.

5. appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [the sky, all the tribes of the earth must see and mourn. They can't see into the abode of God.]
6. and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
7. and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[Same as line 5.]
8. he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
9. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [the abode of God]
10. they shall gather together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other [the abode of God]

My point was heaven does not refer to Israel, never has, never will.