Being "saved"

[dlamberth]

Consequences are only part of it from where I stand. There must be justice, as God is just. What consequences did Hitler suffer? He lived well and without justice or consequences until he killed himself. Is there no justice for his victims?

I don't see God dishing out judgment and punishment. That's something human beings do so we tend to think God must do that as well. But the Divine is at a different state than the human mind that likes to conceptualize everything. The Divine expression is an unconditional Love that is so very hard to describe, which is why the best descriptions come from the mystic poets. But a judgmental God out looking for justice? Na...that's a perspective that thankfully is going away. I'd even argue that it's a perspective that's done great harm to humanity.

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[light upon light]

Consequences are only part of it from where I stand. There must be justice, as God is just. What consequences did Hitler suffer? He lived well and without justice or consequences until he killed himself. Is there no justice for his victims?

Hitler lived a life of hatred and fear. He turned God's world into a nightmare of hatred and fear for so many other human beings.

When he died, he got to see and experience all the horror, pain and suffering he caused to hundreds of millions of human beings, even including those who still today are led astray by racism and nazi ideologies.

Can you imagine any justice more terrible and more deserving than that?

Or perhaps he isn't able to face that, and instead his back is still turned to the truth of his life. To be cut off from the truth - that is from God - is there a worse condemnation possible?

Think about the leaders cults as a crass example. They think they're righteous, and even feel like God is blessing them- but they're not and He isn't. There's a litany of self-deceived cultists one could reel off.

Right.

That's why we have to turn to the fruits.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance..." - Galatians 5:22-23

The truth is - we don't know who we are. We don't get to judge if we are the sheep or the goats - all judgment belongs to Him. All we can do is ask in humility for God to guide us aright, and do the best we know how, following His guidance in His words and in our desire to serve the Good.

In truth - we don't deserve the praise in any event. "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

Seems to me like you and I are not too far apart except for the issue of God's justice- which is a bedrock of my understanding of the Bible.

I believe justice is that if we live with grace and love, we have spiritual joy in us, and if we life with hatred and evil, that is who we become.

To become an angel of God's love, or a devil of selfishness - based on our own decisions - is this not the epitome of justice?

 

[ContraMundum]

To become an angel of God's love, or a devil of selfishness - based on our own decisions - is this not the epitome of justice?

I don't think so, no. Justice requires reparation. Victims require justice too. Just because a person who sins might become worse doesn't mean justice is full.

 

[light upon light]

I don't think so, no. Justice requires reparation. Victims require justice too. Just because a person who sins might become worse doesn't mean justice is full.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

Do you want God to punish you for the times in your life you were thoughtless, cruel, ignorant, lazy etc.?

What about if you are very sorry about that and remorseful and seek forgiveness from God. Should you still be punished?

I'm not understanding what you think should be the case.

 

[light upon light]

I would say being saved is finally realizing the unity of all. The self dies away and the true Self is sought out.

That's basically what Baha'u'llah writes about in the last of the Seven Valleys:

"This station is the dying from self and the living in God, the being poor in self and rich in the Desired One... For when the true lover and devoted friend reacheth to the presence of the Beloved, the sparkling beauty of the Loved One and the fire of the lover’s heart will kindle a blaze and burn away all veils and wrappings. Yea, all he hath, from heart to skin, will be set aflame, so that nothing will remain save the Friend."

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm not sure what you are saying.

Do you want God to punish you for the times in your life you were thoughtless, cruel, ignorant, lazy etc.?

Of course not...but I know I deserve punishment for them.

What about if you are very sorry about that and remorseful and seek forgiveness from God. Should you still be punished?

The angle I would be coming from is this- I would never be truly remorseful without repentance and I would never truly repent unless moved by God's Spirit.

In other words, just being sorry isn't enough. If a murderer faced a judge in court, saying he was sorry and wouldn't do it again (contrition and repentance) doesn't mean he will be let off- only a corrupt judge would break the law which states that a crime must be punished. A good judge must still apply the law. My beliefs are that man is unable to pay the penalty of his crimes, and God wrote the laws and penalties that apply to us. So God also provides our way out- and His Spirit moves us to contrition and repentance and by faith we accept full pardon for our sins, won for us also by His decree. In this way, God is a just judge tp punish sin, the justifier of the sinner and the agent of our cleansing and "rehabilitation". I know it's probably not a great analogy for all to "get" but it's late and I'm tired.

 

[LordDuncanBurneWilke]

Consequences are only part of it from where I stand. There must be justice, as God is just. What consequences did Hitler suffer? He lived well and without justice or consequences until he killed himself

Hitler's, as with everyone else's karma, follows them. It's inescapable. The karma Hitler would have accrued would be staggering and justice would be served in the samsara. Also, karma bit Hitler in his life too. He didn't 'live well' until he killed himself. As the war turned against Germany, Hitler became extremely mentally ill, sickly, paranoid, delusional, etc,etc. The decisions and actions he made in his life came back to haunt him.

If one does not believe in the idea of rebirth, and is a theist, then I can understand the troubling questions one has to ask about justice.

 

[ContraMundum]

Hitler's, as with everyone else's karma, follows them. It's inescapable. The karma Hitler would have accrued would be staggering and justice would be served in the samsara. Also, karma bit Hitler in his life too. He didn't 'live well' until he killed himself. As the war turned against Germany, Hitler became extremely mentally ill, sickly, paranoid, delusional, etc,etc. The decisions and actions he made in his life came back to haunt him.

So, you're saying that in his next life he will be punished for crimes he knows nothing of?

In your belief system- How does that serve justice for his victims? Seems to me that true justice includes reparation and repair.

If one does not believe in the idea of rebirth, and is a theist, then I can understand the troubling questions one has to ask about justice.

Cool.

 

[dlamberth]

In your belief system- How does that serve justice for his victims? Seems to me that true justice includes reparation and repair.

Perhaps you need to re-define justice in light of Divine Wisdom and not that of the human ego. It's the ego that demands reparation and repair. Divine Wisdom works towards union and awakening.

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[Eyes wide Open]

Hitler's, as with everyone else's karma, follows them. It's inescapable. The karma Hitler would have accrued would be staggering and justice would be served in the samsara. Also, karma bit Hitler in his life too. He didn't 'live well' until he killed himself. As the war turned against Germany, Hitler became extremely mentally ill, sickly, paranoid, delusional, etc,etc. The decisions and actions he made in his life came back to haunt him.

If one does not believe in the idea of rebirth, and is a theist, then I can understand the troubling questions one has to ask about justice.

But it isn't about what you believe, re-birth isn't the answer to the question in my view, just because it creates a loop hole via karmic winds and that justice is being served in the next life. It can be as simple as observing or understanding what one is at source, which is pure creative potential, and a presentation of that potential in life, (self realization) or upon death, is justice enough if a person has intended suffering on another, because that stands in such stark creative contrast to that creative potential. Welcome to CF, not enough Hindus here about's.

 

[ContraMundum]

Perhaps you need to re-define justice in light of Divine Wisdom and not that of the human ego. It's the ego that demands reparation and repair. Divine Wisdom works towards union and awakening.

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Perhaps that notion of justice is part of the imago dei, put in us by God as a reflection of His definition of justice. So it's not a matter of human ego at all, but there by His creation.

 

[dlamberth]

Perhaps that notion of justice is part of the imago dei, put in us by God as a reflection of His definition of justice. So it's not a matter of human ego at all, but there by His creation.

The demand for justice clearly serves the need of nothing but the human ego. The whole idea of justice is ego focused and ego displayed. The essence of justice is attachment to punishment for what the ego perceives as wrong doing. Which of course has absolutely nothing to do with Creation. Nowhere in Creation but in the human ego do we see any sense or images of justice/punishment for perceived wrong doing. The essence of God is not justice or punishment. That's not something God does or is. Those are human ego concepts that have nothing to do with God.

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[ContraMundum]

The demand for justice clearly serves the need of nothing but the human ego. The whole idea of justice is ego focused and ego displayed. The essence of justice is attachment to punishment for what the ego perceives as wrong doing. Which of course has absolutely nothing to do with Creation. Nowhere in Creation but in the human ego do we see any sense or images of justice/punishment for perceived wrong doing. The essence of God is not justice or punishment. That's not something God does or is. Those are human ego concepts that have nothing to do with God.

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I'm afraid that modernist/humanist psychological assesment just doesn't gel with the God of the Bible, who created man in His image, gave us laws, punishments and rewards, speaks about His judgment and His grace, our need for obedience, repentance and contrition and uses legal/forensic terms like "justify", "judge" and "redeem" and so forth. This language is His language.

Obviously, if you think justice is about the Freudian concept of ego- that's quite an indictment on God Himself who teaches us about and bids us to implement and use legal systems. Looks to me like you have an argument with God to settle before you unleash this very human ideology/definition of yours onto His mere humble followers.

I realize your statement gels well with modern psychological ideals, and walks in tandem with the kind of anti-Judeo-Christian iconoclasm popular with those who mix human ideology with revelation, but it just doesn't add up at all with the revelation and self-disclosure of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

 

[dlamberth]

I'm afraid that modernist/humanist psychological assesment just doesn't gel with the God of the Bible, who created man in His image, ......

I feel that the attempt here is to create God into the image of man.

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[LordDuncanBurneWilke]

So, you're saying that in his next life he will be punished for crimes he knows nothing of?

Who knows. But the cycle of rebirth continues. All will be answered for. The soul's goal is unity with the Lord, to end rebirth. Hitler would have gone in the opposite direction. Some thought thinks there is a 'hell' for such souls are beyond 're-education' so to speak. Other teachings speak of hundreds of millions of rebirths. I have no dogma so I can't say what exactly happens. Maybe nothing happens. Who knows.

In your belief system- How does that serve justice for his victims? Seems to me that true justice includes reparation and repair.

Repair is for everyone. The dead don't worry about what happened to Hitler. Hitler has his own karma. So do the poor souls who suffered immensely under Nazi persecution. Perhaps their karma will set right what was so wrong when they were persecuted and murdered.

Thank you for the reply friend.

 

[LordDuncanBurneWilke]

But it isn't about what you believe, re-birth isn't the answer to the question in my view, just because it creates a loop hole via karmic winds and that justice is being served in the next life. It can be as simple as observing or understanding what one is at source, which is pure creative potential, and a presentation of that potential in life, (self realization) or upon death, is justice enough if a person has intended suffering on another, because that stands in such stark creative contrast to that creative potential.

Very well put! I can agree with parts of that too. Especially the parts about 'upon death' and self realization. There is much thought that what determines your afterlife or next life is in fact what you think about or what you realize upon death. Souls can be damned or saved at death depending on their state of mind. I think that helps Christians alot when they think of Jesus at death. I bet many find peace there

Likewise, many men upon death realized what they truly were, and well....

Welcome to CF, not enough Hindus here about's.

Thanks. I am not really Hindu. I just find that's the closest my beliefs come to and my 'holy book' is the Bhagavad Gita.

 

[dlamberth]

Souls can be damned or saved at death depending on their state of mind.

I look at our souls, all souls, as an activity of God. And being an activity of God, they are than perfect and pure and never able to be corrupted. So, how can our soul's be damned and what's there to be saved if they are already pure and in God already?

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[smaneck]

I'm afraid that modernist/humanist psychological assesment just doesn't gel with the God of the Bible, who created man in His image, gave us laws, punishments and rewards, speaks about His judgment and His grace, our need for obedience, repentance and contrition and uses legal/forensic terms like "justify", "judge" and "redeem" and so forth. This language is His language.

Does anyone use the word 'justify' other than Paul? As for redeem, in the Tanakh that meant to redeem someone from slavery, not sin.

but it just doesn't add up at all with the revelation and self-disclosure of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

This sounds more like Paul than Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

 

[smaneck]

The demand for justice clearly serves the need of nothing but the human ego.

It doesn't have to. Baha'u'llah says the purpose of justice is the appearance of unity. Reparative justice creates unity whereas punitive justice generally does not.

 

[LordDuncanBurneWilke]

I look at our souls, all souls, as an activity of God. And being an activity of God, they are than perfect and pure and never able to be corrupted. So, how can our soul's be damned and what's there to be saved if they are already pure and in God already?

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I wasn't being literal about the damned part. And I agree. All souls are in fact an activity of God. When we see our true Selves, we see God.