Being "saved"

[theophilus777]

It doesn't have to. Baha'u'llah says the purpose of justice is the appearance of unity. Reparative justice creates unity whereas punitive justice generally does not.

This idea of "reparative justice," that is what Kevin is missing. Vengeful and punitive justice has no place.

 

[theophilus777]

Does anyone use the word 'justify' other than Paul? As for redeem, in the Tanakh that meant to redeem someone from slavery, not sin.

Same-same; slavery, sin.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yes, we must bow to the being who decided that the best solution to all our mistakes and sins was to kill his own kid in a fit of rage. What love! Stirs my soul every time.

I don't know which being you are speaking of....certainly not the accurate depiction of the God of the Bible...but then again, a cynic will only see what makes him comfortable, right?

 

[ContraMundum]

I feel that the attempt here is to create God into the image of man.

.

You can "feel" all you like but don't try to tell me that's what the Divine revelatory self-disclosure of the God you are claiming to follow says about the matter. It simply isn't.

 

[ContraMundum]

Does anyone use the word 'justify' other than Paul? As for redeem, in the Tanakh that meant to redeem someone from slavery, not sin.

Paul uses the word to describe the concept of justification clearly taught in the Torah. Also, redemption in the Pesach narrative is telling us that sin is a type of slavery.

This sounds more like Paul than Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

You argue an awful lot, but your not making any real point. I realize to you religion is all between the ears but on that path you'll never really make progress. Griping about which author of sacred scripture says what does not a) have any bearing on how it is understood or b) remove it from Divine revelation just because you say so. You don't like Paul? Why should I care?

 

[LoAmmi]

Paul uses the word to describe the concept of justification clearly taught in the Torah. Also, redemption in the Pesach narrative is telling us that sin is a type of slavery.

I haven't ever made that kind of connection. Where do you find missing the mark connected to slavery?

 

[theophilus777]

I haven't ever made that kind of connection. Where do you find missing the mark connected to slavery?

Jacob's children missed the mark, and wound up in slavery.

 

[Supreme]

I think that being saved is a process involving both faith in God's love for us and His salvation through Christ; and also our works, how we act. Unfortunately, it's much easier to have faith than it is to do good, and so that's why some Christians emphasize it. They're both important, however.

 

[South Bound]

Rather than worry about one's soul being "saved" or not, would we not be better off worrying about loving our fellow human beings?

Is it loving to stand by while your fellow human beings go to Hell?

Is it possible that "salvation" in fact comes from compassion and selfless love for others?

No.

I know I feel much closer to God when I am doing God's work - that is, being of service to humanity - than when I am worrying about my own spiritual state.

I see. How does one "feel closer to God"? What does that mean?

Discovery of your atman. Your true Self. Not the ego or persona that the maya creates. Seeing through the illusion to God.

Ah, so then, it's not actually feeling closer to God, but feeling closer to a feeling. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

 

[LordDuncanBurneWilke]

I see. How does one "feel closer to God"? What does that mean?

Discovery of your atman. Your true Self. Not the ego or persona that the maya creates. Seeing through the illusion to God.

 

[light upon light]

Is it loving to stand by while your fellow human beings go to Hell?

Be careful when you think you know God's judgment. That is a dangerous trap that many others have fallen into before:

"Ye search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me... But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not... Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

Is it possible that "salvation" in fact comes from compassion and selfless love for others?

No.

This sounds a lot like what I wrote:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. " - Luke 10:25-28

I see. How does one "feel closer to God"? What does that mean?

It means to enjoy the fruits of the spirit:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..." - Galatians 5:22-23

 

[South Bound]

Be careful when you think you know God's judgment.

Why shouldn't I know what God has already proclaimed?

That is a dangerous trap that many others have fallen into before:

"Ye search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me... But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not... Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust."

...which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

This sounds a lot like what I wrote:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. " - Luke 10:25-28

...which, again, has nothing to do with what I said.

It means to enjoy the fruits of the spirit:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..." - Galatians 5:22-23

Would you like to quote the whole thing? Or are you just going to go with that snippet and ignore the context of the passage?

 

[LoAmmi]

Jacob's children missed the mark, and wound up in slavery.

Ok, my memory might be playing tricks on me, but when did Jacob's children miss the mark and become slaves? What happened to Joseph was pretty bad, but they didn't end up as slaves.

 

[smaneck]

it's much easier to have faith than it is to do good, and so that's why some Christians emphasize it. They're both important, however.

Is it? I can choose to do good, but I only believe what I'm persuaded is true. I can't make myself believe.

 

[smaneck]

Same-same; slavery, sin.

Not to a Jew. The Hebrew people suffered real slavery.

 

[theophilus777]

Ok, my memory might be playing tricks on me, but when did Jacob's children miss the mark and become slaves? What happened to Joseph was pretty bad, but they didn't end up as slaves.

Didn't end up as slaves? Joseph's older brothers sold him into slavery where he wound up as a ruler. The Brothers came to Egypt in famine, and wound up under Joseph's care. Eventually anyone that had known Joseph was gone and the Hebrews were oppressed. Some 400 years of slavery between that story and Moses leading them out. Your Tanakh doesn't have any of that?

 

[dlamberth]

Ah, so then, it's not actually feeling closer to God, but feeling closer to a feeling.

Feeling closer to feeling is a wonderful start to awaken those feelings of being close to God. But there's much more. For myself in feeling closer to God there are more than several trajectories that all come together as One. I'll start out with "seeing" the Divine with in other human beings makes me feel closer to God. Babies and watching a mothers love for her new born child really bring that out in me very clearly. There is also the union through Love with life itself that I experience. Than there's the openness to the presence of a force much greater than my ego self that runs within and through out every bit of this Creation. And when I ride Love like an arrow to the Heart of God, that's when I REALLY feel close to my Beloved God.

There are many more examples for when I feel close to God, but what I see as most important...when I'm in the mind of service to God as I'm helping those in need and feel their gratitude and thankfulness for being helped, I feel the closes to God during those times and find myself giving many thank to my Beloved for those blessings.

.

 

[theophilus777]

Not to a Jew. The Hebrew people suffered real slavery.

All the Spiritual implications Christians enjoy, the Jews lived through the physical realities of. Including the hardships and the sufferings. With the penultimate Incarnation of that in the Cross.

 

[smaneck]

Paul uses the word to describe the concept of justification clearly taught in the Torah.

If the Torah doesn't even use the word 'justification' it can't be said to teach it.

Also, redemption in the Pesach narrative is telling us that sin is a type of slavery.

You mean the story of the four sons? I don't recall hearing 'sin' even mentioned there.

You argue an awful lot, but your not making any real point. I realize to you religion is all between the ears but on that path you'll never really make progress.

Oh, I have a big point, namely how can you say God taught something when in fact it is just the opinion of a single person and the opinion of someone who is neither God, the Son of God, or even a Prophet of God? And why should I believe it?

 

[smaneck]

Didn't end up as slaves? Joseph's older brothers sold him into slavery where he wound up as a ruler. The Brothers came to Egypt in famine, and wound up under Joseph's care. Eventually anyone that had known Joseph was gone and the Hebrews were oppressed. Some 400 years of slavery between that story and Moses leading them out. Your Tanakh doesn't have any of that?

Actually there is no indication that the Jews were enslaved immediately after Joseph's passing. My guess is that their enslavement occurred at least a century later when the Hyksos Pharaohs fell. The Tanakh never suggests that the Hebrews were enslaved because of what Joseph's brothers did. In fact, Joseph's descendants were enslaved as well.