Arguing in Calvinism

[debateableduck]

TLDR -- Some Calvinists I have found get very offensive and argumentative when it comes to certain things. But if grace is really at heart of Calvinism, do said Calvinists not really get true Calvinism? Or is something else the matter?

Spurgeon once said (forget where), "Grace is at the heart of Calvinism."

Calvinism is very deep theology. Very defined.

If grace really is at Calvinism’s core, why have I run into so many Calvinists who get into arguments?

Let me explain it:

If Calvinism is a deep understanding of who God is...
If God is grace defined...

Then why does it seem that a few Calvinists are more into Calvinism's arguments than being gracious?

If a person's life is truly a reflection of their inward thought-life, then is Calvinism put into practice a vanity?

Do you see my dilemma?

What say you, my dear reader?

As for me, I just don't buy Calvinism because I have run into more arguments regarding Predestination and who is more right. These arguments get put on repeat ad nauseum, and the people standing by listening gain nothing.

But let's give those people grace, DebateableDuck. Hah. All believers grow, move back a few steps, grow some more, and etc.

At the end of the day, too, it isn't just Calvinism. It isn't just any way of thinking about God -- it's the human heart, no? I think that's the common thing among all stupid and vain arguments.

My question is: How do you, as a Calvinist, handle people who wield certain Calvinist doctrines as instruments of crushing the opposition?

 

[twin1954]

TLDR -- Some Calvinists I have found get very offensive and argumentative when it comes to certain things. But if grace is really at heart of Calvinism, do said Calvinists not really get true Calvinism? Or is something else the matter?

Spurgeon once said (forget where), "Grace is at the heart of Calvinism."

Calvinism is very deep theology. Very defined.

If grace really is at Calvinism’s core, why have I run into so many Calvinists who get into arguments?

Let me explain it:

If Calvinism is a deep understanding of who God is...
If God is grace defined...

Then why does it seem that a few Calvinists are more into Calvinism's arguments than being gracious?

If a person's life is truly a reflection of their inward thought-life, then is Calvinism put into practice a vanity?

Do you see my dilemma?

What say you, my dear reader?

As for me, I just don't buy Calvinism because I have run into more arguments regarding Predestination and who is more right. These arguments get put on repeat ad nauseum, and the people standing by listening gain nothing.

But let's give those people grace, DebateableDuck. Hah. All believers grow, move back a few steps, grow some more, and etc.

At the end of the day, too, it isn't just Calvinism. It isn't just any way of thinking about God -- it's the human heart, no? I think that's the common thing among all stupid and vain arguments.

My question is: How do you, as a Calvinist, handle people who wield certain Calvinist doctrines as instruments of crushing the opposition?

Could it be that you, like all who don't know what Calvinism actually teaches, provoke an argument? Calvinists are constantly under attack, though it is granted that some Calvinists go on the attack as well, and the argument is usually a defense.

Sadly for many on both sides of the argument it has become nothing but an intellectual exercise and a matter of pride. Many hold to doctrines but few have the doctrines holding them. It is as clear an example of total depravity as can be found.

 

[debateableduck]

Could it be that you, like all who don't know what Calvinism actually teaches, provoke an argument?

It could be true. I just assumed since I've sat in a Reformed church for a decade I know more about Calvinism than not.

I suppose that statement sounds pretty darn judgemental. Hah! Wow.

But to be honest, I've never read Calvin's Institutes in depth before. I suppose my post signifies my ignorance.

And... by provoke an argument do you mean here, as in currently? Or in times past when I've witnessed arguments? I'm a little confused.

 

[twin1954]

It could be true. I just assumed since I've sat in a Reformed church for a decade I know more about Calvinism than not.

I suppose that statement sounds pretty darn judgemental. Hah! Wow.

But to be honest, I've never read Calvin's Institutes in depth before. I suppose my post signifies my ignorance.

And... by provoke an argument do you mean here, as in currently? Or in times past when I've witnessed arguments? I'm a little confused.

When I said "you" it was a question based on experience. I didn't assume that you weren't a Calvinist but know by experience that usually those who ask questions as you have are not. My other comment was concerning times past but it did seem as though you might be trying to provoke a debate currently as well. I didn't assume you were but tried to answer in such a way as to include it.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

TLDR -- Some Calvinists I have found get very offensive and argumentative when it comes to certain things. But if grace is really at heart of Calvinism, do said Calvinists not really get true Calvinism? Or is something else the matter?

The matter I suspect is:

1.) the same could be said of all Christians from all sects/denominations even non-denominationals

2.) Christians from all sects/denominations even non-denominationals need the grace and mercy of God every moment of every day.

3.) That Christians may be inconsistent with a said belief, does not disprove that belief. IOW, the truth or falseness of it does not depend on man's obedience or disobedience, the truth of God is true regardless and apart from whether we believe or comply with it.

Spurgeon once said (forget where), "Grace is at the heart of Calvinism."

And I totally agree with the Prince of Preachers. He also said that "Calvinism is the Gospel" of course there is context for that quote as well.

Calvinism is very deep theology. Very defined.

Yes it can be, but does not necessarily have to be at all times. For example, there are childrens books written by Calvinists for Christians with children.

If grace really is at Calvinism’s core, why have I run into so many Calvinists who get into arguments?

There are commands in Scripture to give a defense etc., one example, Paul at Athens...

There are many many instances in Paul's letters where he argues against what is going on in this and that Church.

Let me explain it:

If Calvinism is a deep understanding of who God is...
If God is grace defined...

Then why does it seem that a few Calvinists are more into Calvinism's arguments than being gracious?

God is more than grace, although grace is the heart of Calvinism, it is far more than that, Calvinism is another word for Christianity, it is a refined word, for a specific "version" (for lack of better term) of Christianity (which I believe is by far the most Biblical expression of Christianity).

If a person's life is truly a reflection of their inward thought-life, then is Calvinism put into practice a vanity?

Do you see my dilemma?

What say you, my dear reader?

I say go back and read the first part of my response, I believe it applies and is relevant. If the truth of Christianity depended on peoples practice, I daresay that Christianity would be in big trouble, even more-so if the truth depended on majorities etc.

I believe Rich Mullins song "We Are Not As Strong As We Think We Are" provides answers:

We are frail, we are fearfully and wonderfully made
Forged in the fires of human passion
Choking on the fumes of selfish rage
And with these our hells and our heavens
So few inches apart
We must be awfully small
And not as strong as we think we are​

As for me, I just don't buy Calvinism because I have run into more arguments regarding Predestination and who is more right. These arguments get put on repeat ad nauseum, and the people standing by listening gain nothing.

But let's give those people grace, DebateableDuck. Hah. All believers grow, move back a few steps, grow some more, and etc.

At the end of the day, too, it isn't just Calvinism. It isn't just any way of thinking about God -- it's the human heart, no? I think that's the common thing among all stupid and vain arguments.

Growing in Christ can be quite painful, but at the same time rewarding. There are many things to be learned by and through stupid debates. Some people learn better by interacting with others, through discourse and going back and forth, one persons thought may bring thoughts to you that otherwise would have not crossed your mind. Quite honestly, there are times when gaining from a debate or discussion, can require a degree of humility, even God granted given humility. Consider it a blessing to be humbled, God chastises those He loves.

My question is: How do you, as a Calvinist, handle people who wield certain Calvinist doctrines as instruments of crushing the opposition?

With a question like that, I would have to ask the person, if they were asking seriously, to go to a section of the forum like Soteriology, and as "neutrally" as possible, read through a years worth of Calvinist and non-Calvinist posts, and determine whether or not Calvinists share the blame, because it takes two to tango, and I know personally from experience, that the charges brought against Calvinists here, apply just as much if not even MORE to the non-Calvinists. People living in glass houses should not throw stones. Quite honestly I have witnessed a great deal of graciousness by Calvinists towards those who claim to be Christians but despise and hate Calvinists and all that we stand for! I have witnessed them on this very forum, even have had them aimed at me a few times, the "Servantes" card, "Robot" (Puppet) tropes, "author of evil" tropes, even "doctrines of demons (devils)" tropes, "follower of men" tropes, just to name a few. Often, I have experienced grace from God in dealing with them when they have come my way. I cannot tell you how much it grieves me inside that a brother in Christ, a Christian could say such things to another Christian. It sadden me further when the same people, would bend over backwards for a non-believer, but have nothing but contempt for a brother over doctrinal disagreements. This is what I see, it especially prevails in those who exalt the attribute of love, even above God. IOW, they worship their imagined version of love, such that God is defined by their imagined version, rather than allowing Scripture, revelation from God, to define who God is.

 

[debateableduck]

So, I quickly realized I wish I hadn't written my original post. I don't know what got into me when I wrote it. It's pretty much... a nuisance? Sorry for bothering you all.

 

[Skala]

TLDR -- Some Calvinists I have found get very offensive and argumentative when it comes to certain things. But if grace is really at heart of Calvinism, do said Calvinists not really get true Calvinism? Or is something else the matter?

Spurgeon once said (forget where), "Grace is at the heart of Calvinism."

Calvinism is very deep theology. Very defined.

If grace really is at Calvinism’s core, why have I run into so many Calvinists who get into arguments?

Let me explain it:

If Calvinism is a deep understanding of who God is...
If God is grace defined...

Then why does it seem that a few Calvinists are more into Calvinism's arguments than being gracious?

If a person's life is truly a reflection of their inward thought-life, then is Calvinism put into practice a vanity?

Do you see my dilemma?

What say you, my dear reader?

As for me, I just don't buy Calvinism because I have run into more arguments regarding Predestination and who is more right. These arguments get put on repeat ad nauseum, and the people standing by listening gain nothing.

But let's give those people grace, DebateableDuck. Hah. All believers grow, move back a few steps, grow some more, and etc.

At the end of the day, too, it isn't just Calvinism. It isn't just any way of thinking about God -- it's the human heart, no? I think that's the common thing among all stupid and vain arguments.

My question is: How do you, as a Calvinist, handle people who wield certain Calvinist doctrines as instruments of crushing the opposition?

As a Calvinist and a sinner, I readily admit both 1) my knowledge of Calvinism and 2) my sinfulness in putting that knowledge to work.

On the one hand, many Calvinists may seem argumentative because they are constantly trying to correct misrepresentations and strawmen of their beliefs. They may be annoyed that their views are constantly misunderstood and they are constantly trying to correct and educate the anti-Calvinists.

The reason things can be come less than civil is a combination of several things, I think:

One being that we are sinners. Another is that we are always addressing the same ole arguments and Bible verses over and over and over again. Some "new" contender enters the debate with his newfound hatred of election and Calvinism, thus enters the arena with what he thinks are brand new, original arguments. Little does he know these arguments have been presented hundreds of thousands of times by now, and addressed/responded to that many times as well. So we get tired of answering the same things over and over again.

Further, we get tired that we are the only ones that have taken the time to go out of our way and read pro-Calvinism articles, books, sermons, etc. We took the time to do our homework and subject ourselves to things we did not agree with at first. Almost every Calvinist was at one time a non-Calvinist or anti-Calvinist. We had to be willing to subject ourselves to things that we originally disagreed with, and allowed ourselves to be challenged and our world-views held to the fire. For all of us, our world-views came crashing down, and it was very difficult. However, the typical (not all, mind you, but most) non-Calvinist or anti-Calvinist has never taken the time to do the real homework and study. He just wants to enter the arena and start a debate on limited Atonement for example He won't take the time to read articles, exegesis, listen to sermons, or otherwise invest all the time that we invested in order to come to our conclusions and our convictions that limited atonement (as an example) is correct.

Another thing we get tired of doing is doing all the homework for our anti-Calvinist friends. For example, I never seen synergists giving a rip about the context of 2nd Peter 3:9. What does the chapter say? Who is it written to? What is it about? Nope. Only the Calvinist stops the conversation and tries to get them to ask/answer these questions. The anti-Calvinist is content on just tossing out the individual verse in a vacuum, out of context, and assuming a meaning. The Calvinist is always the one left with all the work to do. He is the one that is tasked with teaching the other guy about context, how to read, what role grammar and pronouns have in interpreting text, etc etc etc.

Hence our general frustration

 

[heymikey80]

Calvinism being largely a realistic theology, it is so highly relevant that people get argumentative and emotional about it, noncalvinists more so than most Calvinists I have met.

Knowing the truth is also not always flattering, much less sharing it with one opposed to it. Anyone sharing the gospel seems to notice that right away. Theology behind it is likely to get similar emotions involved too.

 

[dhh712]

TLDR -- Some Calvinists I have found get very offensive and argumentative when it comes to certain things. But if grace is really at heart of Calvinism, do said Calvinists not really get true Calvinism? Or is something else the matter?

Spurgeon once said (forget where), "Grace is at the heart of Calvinism."

Calvinism is very deep theology. Very defined.

If grace really is at Calvinism’s core, why have I run into so many Calvinists who get into arguments?

Let me explain it:

If Calvinism is a deep understanding of who God is...
If God is grace defined...

Then why does it seem that a few Calvinists are more into Calvinism's arguments than being gracious?

If a person's life is truly a reflection of their inward thought-life, then is Calvinism put into practice a vanity?

Do you see my dilemma?

What say you, my dear reader?

As for me, I just don't buy Calvinism because I have run into more arguments regarding Predestination and who is more right. These arguments get put on repeat ad nauseum, and the people standing by listening gain nothing.

But let's give those people grace, DebateableDuck. Hah. All believers grow, move back a few steps, grow some more, and etc.

At the end of the day, too, it isn't just Calvinism. It isn't just any way of thinking about God -- it's the human heart, no? I think that's the common thing among all stupid and vain arguments.

My question is: How do you, as a Calvinist, handle people who wield certain Calvinist doctrines as instruments of crushing the opposition?

Here's my take on the matter. Personally, I believe Calvinisim is the true interpretation of the Bible (else, I wouldn't believe it). For the Christian, there are the two important matters of Truth (as in launching into an discussion--which could turn into an argument--when we hear falsities proclaimed) and Grace. Every Christian on earth that either lives, will live, or has lived has (or should have) both these qualities though in varying degrees. Some incline more to grace, some incline more to truth. No one who has ever lived except God has both these qualities to the fullest degree that they can be.

It has been my experience (and I am not stating a blanket statement) that many Calvinists are intellectuals; they like to think a lot and become involved in philosophical ideas. They are often quite intelligent (not all by any means and this is not to say that someone who is not too intelligent can't be a Calvinist; I'm sure there are many fervent Calvinists out there who really couldn't care less about worldly intellectualism). Because of this interest, they lean more toward the Truth side of the spectrum (by this I mean they like to share the truths they have learned--and they often have a good understanding of it) and thereby grace is sometimes something which they would do well to incorporate more of into their lives.

Just my speculation on the topic (for my own personal experience with grace and truth, I feel that I could definitely improve on having more grace when I deal with others; I find it awkward to speak the truth--as in presenting an argument against false proclamations--because I have an avoidance personality, but when I do I am often blunt and perhaps come across as though I don't care about the other person. It is something which I hope the Lord will improve in me).

 

[debateableduck]

Can a mod please delete this thread? Thank you.