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Good Morning Everyone,
This is my first post on these forums. I hope that in the discussions to come we will be able to edify and encourage one another in Christ. It is my prayer that we will be able to discuss the things of God in a way that brings glory to Him.
If the Calvinists on the forums could spare some of their time to do so, I was hoping that I might be able to get some answers for some questions that I have. I have been studying Calvinism off and on for the past couple of years, and I have had some discussions with Calvinists and observed more discussions on various forums. In the course of this study, I have found some tenants of reformed theology that I find difficult to accept based on what I see in Scripture. In this first post, I would like to lay out one of the difficulties I have and be able to hear the Calvinist perspective on the issue. Thank you all in advance for your time and consideration.
I think that I agree with most of you on some basic points of theology. I believe that unregenerate man is dead in sin (Eph. 2 and Col. 2), that he is depraved, out of fellowship with God and in need of a Savior. I believe that because of his depravity man would never come to God unless God first drew him (John 6:44). God does not owe man anything, in fact he would be perfectly just in condemning man to hell, and sending His Son Jesus Christ was a gift or mercy and love unmerited by man. Salvation is by God alone, by grace, through faith, and he deserves all the glory.
The first area where I have some questions is in regards to the doctrine of regeneration before faith and salvation. In the doctrine of Total Depravity, Calvinism states that because man is dead in his sins, or spiritually dead (Eph. 2 and Col. 2) he cannot believe. A corpse cant believe, so a spiritually dead person cant believe either. As much as possible when making a statement about Calvinist beliefs, I would like to include what quotes I have found just to show that I have heard these beliefs reiterated by many Calvinists. Below are a list of quotes from Calvinists, extracted from conversations that I have observed in the past:
We are dead! Dead people don't go to the doctor, don't realize they need help, don't accept God, etc. Someone from the outside must resurrect us and make us able to come to that realization.
How can a dead man choose to live?
We cannot choose. We are corpses
We were dead before being regenerated how can a dead man have faith?
Being dead, we are completely unable to choose life. Dead men cant raise themselves up, they cannot respond, they are dead.
If we are dead then we cant accept dead men cant choose life.
We are dead in our sins. If we are dead how can we choose God? A dead man cant choose to live again.
Man has sunk so far through the Fall that he is no longer capable of believing the gospel. He can no more repent and believe than a dead man can rise up and walk.
"Now it will surely be admitted that to be dead, and to be dead in sin, is clear and positive evidence that there is neither aptitude nor power remaining for the performance of any spiritual action." (Warburton, quoted by Boettner in The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, pp. 65,66)
A spiritually dead person will not recognize the need for spiritual life unless something outside himself raises him from the dead.
We are dead in our sin. A dead man cannot grab a rope no matter how good the throw was.
We are dead...dead people can't do anything! So how can we "choose" God?
I must say that this argument sounded very convincing when I first heard it. But there are various things have caused me to question it. The basic premise is that an unsaved person cant believe because theyre spiritually dead, and dead people cant believe. But if we take that a step further, unsaved people shouldnt be able to sin either. After all, theyre dead. They shouldnt be able to eat, sleep, walk, talk, hear, etc. They shouldnt be able to do anything, because theyre dead. But obviously thats not the case. If were not going to take dead to mean unable to sin or unable to eat, sleep, walk, talk, etc why should we take it to mean unable to believe?
I started looking at the context of scripture to interpret this passage. In Romans 6 says that were dead to sin. If we were to apply the Calvinist interpretation of Ephesians and Colossians 2, then Romans 6 should mean that after salvation we are unable to sin. But its obvious to all of us that we can still sin, even though we are saved. In Romans 7 it says that we are dead to the Law. If we apply the Calvinist interpretation here, Romans 7 means that we are unable to put ourselves under the Law anymore. But it doesnt take much looking around to see that people are still putting themselves under the Law. When the prodigal son came home, his father said, My son was dead, and he is alive again. But obviously, his son was still able to make decisions and even choose to come back home. The more I look at it, the more it seems to me that these references to being dead in scripture seem to indicate a change in relationship rather than an inability to do something. We are dead to sin; our relationship with sin has now changed. It is no longer our master, and we are slaves to righteousness now. We are dead to the law; our relationship with the law has changed, and we are now under grace. The Prodigal son was dead; his relationship with his father had changed, and they were now estranged. If I was to say Youre dead to me! it wouldnt indicate that it was impossible for us to communicate, it would indicate that our relationship had changed. In the same way, it seems more likely to me that Ephesians 2 is talking about a change in relationship when it says that the unsaved are dead in sin. Adam and Eve sinned and their relationship with God changed. They became out of fellowship with God, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and thus they became spiritually dead. The context also seems to point to this as well; Ephesians 2 repeatedly uses phrases like separated, excluded, strangers, far off, aliens. If the context of scripture points to a different meaning for being dead, and the Calvinist interpretation of Eph. 2 and Col. 2 doesnt work on other passages, why should we take the phrase dead in sin to mean inability?
Because of the belief that the spiritually dead cannot believe, Calvinism states that man must be made alive, or born again, before he can believe. Below a few quotes:
"Spiritually Dead" people cannot ask God to forgive them, or accept Jesus unless an outside force resurrects them.
"A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated." (Arthur W. Pink, The Holy Spirit, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1978, p. 55; cited by Ibid., p. 521.)
"We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again that we may believe." (R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God, p. 73; cited by Ibid., p. 521.)
" life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith." (From a tract entitled Which Comes First In Conversion--Life or Faith? By Calvinist C.D.Cole, published by Chapel Library, Venice, Florida).
Before looking for verses that talked about life and belief, I looked in scripture to find a definition for what it meant to be spiritually alive. From what I see in scripture, spiritual life and eternal life appear to be the same thing. We receive new life when we are born again, which involves being put in Christ, crucified, buried and raised with Him in newness of life (Romans 6). He is our life (Colossians 3:4), and His life is eternal. When we pass from death to life and become spiritually alive, our spiritual life is eternal life, which as Christians we have right now (John 5:24). With that definition in mind, I started looking for verses that talked about life and belief. Please see below:
John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:16b That whoever believes in him, should have everlasting life.
John 3:36b And he that believeth not the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Throughout all of the verses listed above the same statement seems to be made: we believe, and then we have life. We receive and accept God, and then we are given the right to be born into His family. We have to come to Him in order to have life. If belief comes before life, then how can dead in sin mean unable to believe until made alive? And how can regeneration, or being born again, come before faith when all of these verses seem to state the reverse?
I began looking through scripture for what in my mind was the ultimate test: did a spiritually dead person ever respond to God in a positive way without being made alive? Below are some of the passages I found.
- In Genesis 3, we see that man first became spiritually dead when he rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden. They became spiritually dead. In Genesis 4, however, we see that not only can man still communicate with God (as evidenced by the story of Cain) but man can also still respond positively and obediently to God (as evidenced by Abel offering God a sacrifice).
- In Genesis 6:8-9, we read: Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. Noah was spiritually dead, and yet he obeyed God and walked with Him.
- In Genesis 15:6, we see the Abraham, a spiritually dead man, believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
- In Acts 13:22, God refers to David as a man after my heart. David was spiritually dead, yet God said that David will do all My will.
- In Job 1:1, we read that this spiritually dead man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
- In Matthew 9:22, Jesus tells a spiritually dead woman, Daughter, be of good comfort; your faith has made you whole. This woman was spiritually dead, yet she responded to God in obedient faith.
- Similarly, in Luke 7:50, Jesus tells another spiritually dead woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.
These are just a few of the examples present in scripture. All of these people were spiritually dead. Being alive involves being in Christ and He being in you, because Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and Paul said that Christ is our life (Col. 3:4). Man became spiritually dead because he was separated from God, who is the Life. People werent able to be born again and be spiritually alive until Jesus has died on the cross to make that possible. So if all of these people in the Old Testament and Early New Testament responded to God without a heart change, without being made spiritually alive, then how can regeneration be necessary before one can believe and be saved? Would the Calvinists on the forums be willing to address these issues and provide a Reformed perspective?
Sorry, that ended up being a little longer than I expected it would be! To whomever takes the time to answer this post, I thank you. I have done my best to research the beliefs of Calvinism and get quotes from multiple sources before making a statement about what Calvinists believe, but if I am mistaken in regards to some of your beliefs please let me know so I can do more research and correct my information. I look forward to talking to you all and I pray that we may all grow to be more like Christ through our conversations here.
In Christ,
Gavin
I think the point is that reformed theology believes that God changes people against their will, though they don't like that phraseology.
Actually, Scripture speaks of "death" in a number of ways, one of which is spiritual death.
If the verses I've given do not teach spiritual death, please explain how so.
Seems the problem here is your denial that "death" has several meanings in Scripture. There is no reason to reject the idea of separation between God and man because of Adams's sin. How should one understand these verses?
Correct. No believer will ever be separated from God in an eternal sense. But they can be in the sense of loss of fellowship.
Sorry, but none of this makes sense. What is the point of your comments? How long he lived has nothing to do with God's promise that in the day he ate of the fruit he would die. In fact, he DID die that day; spiritually, which we easily see from the context. When the Lord walked in the garden, Adam hid himself, and was unable to have any fellowship with the Lord. That is spiritual death, and perfectly fits what Paul wrote about in Rom 5:12-19.
In fact, the original Hebrew says "in the day you eat of it, dying, you will die."
I believe 1 Thess 5:23 refutes your statement.
This proves nothing of what your claim is.
He's more than that. He was created in the image of God. That proves that man was created trichotomous.
Sure, man's physical body did come from dust. But not his soul nor spirit. They were breathed into his "dusty" body.
Let us all be acutely aware of Paul's most crafty warnings (pl) in Romans 6,
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved Ep 2:6
Why should one assume that "sin leading to death" means "eternal death"? Eternal separation from God is the result of not possessing eternal life.
Such a view cheapens God's free gift to something less than eternal.
They're wrong, of course, but so what? Lots of believers make unbiblical claims all the time. As seen in these forums.
There are no verses that teach that being obedient gains eternal life. That just smacks of a Phariseeical system of works righteousness/salvation.
In what way does a heart change not change the heart? Would it not be clear that for goodness' sake God does indeed change the evil human heart of stone?
If the will were willing it would not need a change to it.
Scripture also says that is nobody, Isaiah 59. And nobody without His Spirit, John 6:65.
I never said it wasn't.
The change of the heart refers to regeneration, which does not precede faith.
Sure, it can be denied all day long, but that is exactly the logical conclusion of RT theology. In fact, some clearly state that unless God regenerates people, no one would believe. So, that means that no one wants to believe until regeneration. How is that NOT against one's will?
Sounds like double speak. Now you've just changed some wording to make it sound better than it is. No one says anything about an "imprisoning a contrary will" in the first place. So the use of it here is disingenuous.
So basically, this is an admission that God acts against a person's will.
What is the context for your statement here? What does "that is nobody" reer to regarding either verse?
No, but what does this have to do with Isa 55:7? Nothing.
Hey, our very own Emster is a pretty cool dude after all. Praise God.
You missed the distinction, and then called it doublespeak, which it is not. It is a distinction with a difference. I could select similar words characterizing your dismissal. I choose to defer those words out of consideration.
God does not honor those who turn from evil, only to turn to another evil.
It is remarkable you would force Is 59 into a statement about the Jewish people. Are Gentiles better than they? No.
You have seen all of them countless times here on this forum!
