Is This True? - Limited Atonement

[Hammster]

Then why not just quit wasting everyone's time and explain WHAT that so-called difference is????

iow, get on with it! Quit stalling.

I did. You quoted the post, even.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That doesn't explain what it means in v. 30. You just generalized.

I answered the question. Your opinion is invalid

 

[FreeGrace2]

If there were an apparent reason, it wouldn't be mercy.

So, then, if there is no apparent reason, there is no reason. God's Word is clear enough. In fact, He gave His reasons for His choices, but Calvinism rejects those reasons. So there isn't any reason.

That being so (in RT), then His choices are arbitrary. Let's call it what it is (in RT).

But, to your point, how does having an apparent reason remove mercy? Please be specific.

 

[stenerson]

I just love how Calvinists like to dodge the answer. Everyone deserves justice, but some were given mercy, for no apparent reason, at least no reason that any Calvinist will admit to.

Who told you scripture gives no reason? We are given reasons. For example:
Ephesians 1:"
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Seems a recurring theme for this predestining of individuals and lavishing grace and mercy on them is for the glory of God.

But, in this system, God is clearly not fair.

That's your opinion. Paul anticipated man's opinion in Romans 9. God didn't seem too interested in man's accusation regarding this matter.

But that never bothers Calvinists. They don't care, as long as they are secure in the knowledge that they have been chosen.

Bit judgmental aren't you? You don't think we care about our family, friends, or neighbors that are currently nonbelievers?
And why do you always criticize Calvinist for being grateful, happy, secure that they have been chosen? Aren't Arminian believers secure in the knowledge that they are chosen?
I mean, you do believe that your are chosen, don't you. However you define the reason for being chosen, elected, predestined, scripture is clear that only chosen people are saved.

Yet, God is as fair as He is just and merciful.

So you only believe God is just and merciful if He gives every human being that ever lived the same opportunity, grace, mercy etc. ?
So God is unjust for having mercy on whom He will have mercy?
Interesting.

 

[Hammster]

I answered the question. Your opinion is invalid

No, you did everything but answer. The definitions you gave do not fit with the verse. I think everyone can see that.

 

[Hammster]

So, then, if there is no apparent reason, there is no reason. God's Word is clear enough. In fact, He gave His reasons for His choices, but Calvinism rejects those reasons. So there isn't any reason.

That being so (in RT), then His choices are arbitrary. Let's call it what it is (in RT).

But, to your point, how does having an apparent reason remove mercy? Please be specific.

Specifically, if God saves based on anything that man does, then it's merit, not mercy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Who told you scripture gives no reason? We are given reasons.

Before you began posting in soteriology, several Calvinists had to admit that God's choices were for no apparent reason. They were unable to come up with any. But I do agree with you; Scripture does gives the reason God elects.

For example:
Ephesians 1:"
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

Seems a recurring theme for this predestining of individuals and lavishing grace and mercy on them is for the glory of God.

Also, the reason for God's choice is belief in His Son.

That's your opinion.

My opinion of Calvinism's portrayal of God as unfair is correct.

Paul anticipated man's opinion in Romans 9. God didn't seem too interested in man's accusation regarding this matter.

Paul's comments have nothing to do with Calvinism's portrayal of God.

Bit judgmental aren't you? You don't think we care about our family, friends, or neighbors that are currently nonbelievers?

Whether one cares or not, in RT the choice was made in eternity past. iow, it's fixed. Concern doesn't enter into it. It shouldn't, at least.

And why do you always criticize Calvinist for being grateful, happy, secure that they have been chosen? Aren't Arminian believers secure in the knowledge that they are chosen?

The issue is that we are to be extremely grateful for being saved by grace. Being chosen is a completely different issue altogether.

I mean, you do believe that your are chosen, don't you.

I know that all believers have been elected (Eph 1:4).

However you define the reason for being chosen, elected, predestined, scripture is clear that only chosen people are saved.

Not true. Jesus elected (chose) Judas Iscariot as one of the 12. God chose the nation of Israel and there is no way every single one of them were saved.

But that's the problem. RT equates being elected (chosen) with being saved. They aren't the same and aren't even related. God does elect saved people, but He has never elected anyone to be saved. That's what RT does not understand.

So you only believe God is just and merciful if He gives every human being that ever lived the same opportunity, grace, mercy etc. ?

Way ahead of you on this one. God ALREADY HAS given the same opportunity, grace and mercy to everyone. The Bible actually says so.

Romans 11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Romans 1:19
because [B[]that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. [/B]
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Acts 17:26
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
Acts 17:27
that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Rom 11:32 tells us that God shows mercy to everyone.
Rom 1:19-20 tells us that God has revealed His divine attributes to everyone.
Acts 17:26-27 tells us that God created mankind to seek Him.

So God is unjust for having mercy on whom He will have mercy?
Interesting.

No. In RT, God is unjust for having mercy on some arbitrarily (without reason). That is unjust.

But I've given 3 passages that prove that God has provided everything that is necessary for mankind to know that He exists, His divine attributes and His purpose for creating mankind.

So God is fair. No one has an excuse (Rom 1:20).

In RT, all the un-chosen have an excuse: "God didn't choose me".

To choose some but not others arbitrarily is unfair whether one understands that prinicple or not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, you did everything but answer. The definitions you gave do not fit with the verse. I think everyone can see that.

Please provide an explanation of WHY my definitions don't fit with the verse, since you claim they do not. iow, give me a reason to believe you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Specifically, if God saves based on anything that man does, then it's merit, not mercy.

That is just an opinion, and one that is wrong. Placing trust does not merit anything. Paul stated that clearly in 2 places; Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9, but maybe those passages just aren't clear for those in RT.

Paul distinguished faith from works. Works create a debt owed (merit). Faith does not create a debt owed (no merit).

Dedicating one's life to God would be considered merit. As in, one is working for God. But belief isn't a work that earns anything.

If there is any evidence anywhere that simply believing something or even just thinking something earns a reward or wage, then your point is proved, and I am wrong. So, please proceed. I cannot conceive of any scenario where thinking is rewarded at any level.

 

[Hammster]

Please provide an explanation of WHY my definitions don't fit with the verse, since you claim they do not. iow, give me a reason to believe you.

I did.

You've stated that called equalled the gospel offer. And you've said the called are believers. So what does it mean here?

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NASB)

Neither definition fits.

 

[Hammster]

That is just an opinion, and one that is wrong. Placing trust does not merit anything. Paul stated that clearly in 2 places; Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9, but maybe those passages just aren't clear for those in RT.

Paul distinguished faith from works. Works create a debt owed (merit). Faith does not create a debt owed (no merit).

Dedicating one's life to God would be considered merit. As in, one is working for God. But belief isn't a work that earns anything.

If there is any evidence anywhere that simply believing something or even just thinking something earns a reward or wage, then your point is proved, and I am wrong. So, please proceed. I cannot conceive of any scenario where thinking is rewarded at any level.

Paul is clear that faith results in justification. Your view is that it results in regeneration. Therefore, God rewards those with faith by regeneration them. So a new heart is given based on an action of man. That's merit.

However, if faith is the result of God acting on man (regenerating him), then man is now able to do something he was incapable of doing before, which is believe. That's grace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did.

Oh, really?! This is exactly what you responded with, in #265:
"No, you did everything but answer. The definitions you gave do not fit with the verse. I think everyone can see that."

Only an opinion, no explanation. So, you didn't. Would you, please?

Neither definition fits.

Why?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul is clear that faith results in justification. Your view is that it results in regeneration.

yes, both are true. There is zero evidence of anyone being regeneration before faith.

Therefore, God rewards those with faith by regeneration them.

The previous statement does not form any basis for your 'therefore' conclusion. Where is the evidence that His regeneration is a reward? Just because He does regenerate and save those who believe, I need evidence that His actions are tantamount to a reward.

So a new heart is given based on an action of man. That's merit.

<sigh> An opinion, but without any merit. What is the "action" of man? Faith or belief.

I asked for a specific example of HOW simply believing something results in creating a debt owed, as in a wage, etc. That's the ONLY way your point can be proven.

However, if faith is the result of God acting on man (regenerating him), then man is now able to do something he was incapable of doing before, which is believe. That's grace.

No, the grace is in salvation (Eph 2:8). Man is saved BY GRACE through faith. Seems RT keeps misunderstanding that. Sadly.

Anyway, I am interesting in an example of HOW faith ever causes a debt owed, such as works do.

If that can be proven, your point is true, and I have been refuted by truth.

If, otoh, there is no proof or evidence, your point is unproven, and rejected.

Just because God does something after man believes in no way indicates that God is rewarding man for his belief.

God has clearly made promises to mankind. They are found in the conditional phrases like "IF you….., then I WILL….".

These promises of God obligate Him to keep His word. So there is no sense of reward when God keeps His promise. He's not rewarding man; He's keeping His promise.

But, if there is any evidence for reward for simply believing, please share. That's how to prove your point and refute mine.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Reading it again doesn't change what was said. No mention of God predestining men to hell in the same way He predestines to heaven.

If God chooses some men to go to heaven and not others, how is that not predestining some men to Hell?

 

[Hammster]

Oh, really?! This is exactly what you responded with, in #265:
"No, you did everything but answer. The definitions you gave do not fit with the verse. I think everyone can see that."

Only an opinion, no explanation. So, you didn't. Would you, please?


Why?

Once again:

You've stated that called equalled the gospel offer. And you've said the called are believers. So what does it mean here?

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NASB)

Neither definition fits.

 

[Hammster]

If God chooses some men to go to heaven and not others, how is that not predestining some men to Hell?

Because Hell is the default position, so to speak. Unless God shows mercy, that's where everyone would end up.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Because Hell is the default position, so to speak. Unless God shows mercy, that's where everyone would end up.

According to Calvin, God chooses who goes to Heaven and Hell with no regard for their actions on earth.

Is that what you believe?

 

[Hammster]

According to Calvin, God chooses who goes to Heaven and Hell with no regard for their actions on earth.

Is that what you believe?

Do I really have to explain this again?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Do I really have to explain this again?

You are not explaining you are avoiding.

 

[Hammster]

You are not explaining you are avoiding.

Post 250:

That's not five point Calvinism. But God did decide who would go to hell based on their actions. It's called justice. He also decided who'd go to heaven despite their actions. It's called mercy.