Is This True? - Limited Atonement

[FreeGrace2]

So those He predestined, He also believers? That makes no sense.

Why so confused? Your question makes no sense, for sure. Who are the ones He predestined? Believers. See, not so difficult, or confusing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Asked by catholichomeschooler:
Do you believe that God predestined some people to Hell?

That has nothing to do with this discussion, or what I said.

Why the dodge? Afraid to answer? So what, that it wasn't part of the discussion. Why not just give your yes or no. That is easy enough. But for some reason, seems you'd rather not actually give your views, in spite of the fact that your posts ask way more questions than they give any answers. Is your theology somehow embarrassing?

 

[Hammster]

Why so confused? Your question makes no sense, for sure. Who are the ones He predestined? Believers. See, not so difficult, or confusing.

You've stated that called equalled the gospel offer. And you've said the called are believers. So what does it mean here?

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NASB)

 

[Skala]

You've stated that called equalled the gospel offer. And you've said the called are believers. So what does it mean here?

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace2]

You've stated that called equalled the gospel offer. And you've said the called are believers. So what does it mean here?

It would be helpful if your post acknowledged the context of each of my statements. When one jams them all together, they get jelly.

The Greek word "kletos" means to invite, and can refer to the gospel offer. And "the called" (please carefully note the little double vertical lines on either side of the words {the called}. These are called quote marks and set off both words as a single idea. So, "the called" refers to those who have been called and accepted the gospel offer, or what the Bible calls believers.

So, one word was a verb, and the phrase was a noun.

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:30 NASB)

No one could make any sense of this one single verse apart from a lot of other verses.

The word "these" at the beginning refers to believers. Whom God predestined, called, justified, and will glorify.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no believer has yet been glorified.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Sure.

Not in the same way He predestined some to salvation. I don't hold to equal ultimacy.

I don't know what that means.

It is a yes or no question.

Does God predestine some men to Hell?

 

[Hammster]

It would be helpful if your post acknowledged the context of each of my statements. When one jams them all together, they get jelly.

The Greek word "kletos" means to invite, and can refer to the gospel offer. And "the called" (please carefully note the little double vertical lines on either side of the words {the called}. These are called quote marks and set off both words as a single idea. So, "the called" refers to those who have been called and accepted the gospel offer, or what the Bible calls believers.

So, one word was a verb, and the phrase was a noun.


No one could make any sense of this one single verse apart from a lot of other verses.

The word "these" at the beginning refers to believers. Whom God predestined, called, justified, and will glorify.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no believer has yet been glorified.

So what does "called" mean in that verse? You've not answered that yet.

 

[Hammster]

I don't know what that means.

It is a yes or no question.

Does God predestine some men to Hell?

What do you mean by predestined to hell?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

What do you mean by predestined to hell?

God decided in advance who would go to Hell with no regard for their actions while on earth just as he decided some would go to heaven with no regard for their actions while on earth.

5 points Calvinism.

 

[Hammster]

God decided in advance who would go to Hell with no regard for their actions while on earth just as he decided some would go to heaven with no regard for their actions while on earth.

5 points Calvinism.

That's not five point Calvinism. But God did decide who would go to hell based on their actions. It's called justice. He also decided who'd go to heaven despite their actions. It's called mercy.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

That's not five point Calvinism. But God did decide who would go to hell based on their actions. It's called justice. He also decided who'd go to heaven despite their actions. It's called mercy.

Yes it is:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP

Five points Calvinism teaches that our actions are irrelevant to our eternal destiny. That's not justice, nor is it consistent with the God of the bible.

 

[Hammster]

Yes it is:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP

Five points Calvinism teaches that our actions are irrelevant to our eternal destiny. That's not justice, nor is it consistent with the God of the bible.

You described election. It says nothing about being predestined to hell.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

You described election. It says nothing about being predestined to hell.

Try reading it again.

Do you think there is a place other than heaven or hell?

 

[Hammster]

Try reading it again.

Do you think there is a place other than heaven or hell?

Reading it again doesn't change what was said. No mention of God predestining men to hell in the same way He predestines to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So what does "called" mean in that verse? You've not answered that yet.

Yes. See #245. It's there in black and white.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God decided in advance who would go to Hell with no regard for their actions while on earth just as he decided some would go to heaven with no regard for their actions while on earth.

5 points Calvinism.

If 5 point Calvinist were true, then God absolutely HAD to decide in advance who would go to hell, since He was choosing who would go to heaven.

Whether one calls it predestination or double predestination, it's all the same thing. Passing over passively or actively choosing. Either way, the poor slob ends up in hell.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's not five point Calvinism. But God did decide who would go to hell based on their actions. It's called justice. He also decided who'd go to heaven despite their actions. It's called mercy.

I just love how Calvinists like to dodge the answer. Everyone deserves justice, but some were given mercy, for no apparent reason, at least no reason that any Calvinist will admit to.

But, in this system, God is clearly not fair. But that never bothers Calvinists. They don't care, as long as they are secure in the knowledge that they have been chosen.

Yet, God is as fair as He is just and merciful. Everyone is able to receive His free gift of eternal life. Those that do not receive it through faith do not have eternal life and are not qualified to live with God in eternity. So the only other residence for them is the lake of fire. That's the only reason they are there, since Jesus Christ paid for ALL the sins of ALL of humanity.

So, while the action of faith does not earn mercy or grace, God decided on His own to extend grace and mercy to those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Reading it again doesn't change what was said. No mention of God predestining men to hell in the same way He predestines to heaven.

Then why not just quit wasting everyone's time and explain WHAT that so-called difference is????

iow, get on with it! Quit stalling.

 

[Hammster]

Yes. See #245. It's there in black and white.

That doesn't explain what it means in v. 30. You just generalized.

 

[Hammster]

I just love how Calvinists like to dodge the answer. Everyone deserves justice, but some were given mercy, for no apparent reason, at least no reason that any Calvinist will admit to.

But, in this system, God is clearly not fair. But that never bothers Calvinists. They don't care, as long as they are secure in the knowledge that they have been chosen.

Yet, God is as fair as He is just and merciful. Everyone is able to receive His free gift of eternal life. Those that do not receive it through faith do not have eternal life and are not qualified to live with God in eternity. So the only other residence for them is the lake of fire. That's the only reason they are there, since Jesus Christ paid for ALL the sins of ALL of humanity.

So, while the action of faith does not earn mercy or grace, God decided on His own to extend grace and mercy to those who believe.

If there were an apparent reason, it wouldn't be mercy.