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Why do Arminians...

nobdysfool

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No, the LXX wasn't inspired. And the Greek speaking people of the time understood helkuo the way it was used in Jer 31:3.

All languages change over time. Word usage and word meanings change. There are Greek Scholars who have literally spent years learning that modern Greek and Koine Greek have differences in usage, meaning, and intent. That is why a Lexicon is one of many tools to find the meaning, but it is not the final authority on Greek.

Please point to the exact post where I've even slightly hinted at such a silly notion. If there isn't one, please quit asking such off the wall questions.

Sure. The post I responded to.

I'd say all of them don't realize it. But so what? The RT view is that God unilaterally changes only some of them. Apart from any conditions. But the bible teaches that God changes the hearts of those who have believed in His Son. Quite different.

Please tell us how a man with an unchanged heart can believe on Christ. He can't. He's dead in his trespasses and sins. Dead man cannot do anything to make themselves alive, either physically or spiritually. Scripture says that while we were dead (in trespasses and sins), GOD quickened us. God doesn't require our faith for that. He quickens us so that we CAN believe and receive Christ.

Man's will has nothing to do with anything. No one wills faith or belief, so please stop with these silly red herrings.

If one has believed, they decided to believe, and decisions involve the will. the silly red herring is trying to deny that the will has anything to do with anything, let alone faith.

Man believes from his heart, not his will. Are you aware of this difference?

Man believes from the heart because he decides to do so, which is an act of the will. Are you aware of this difference?

Putting one's faith in someone or something does not require the will. It requires confidence in the thing or person the one is trusting in. Does that make sense? If not, please ask, before assigning any more silly ridiculous and off the wall views that are not mine.

Any act of faith also involves the will. It's odd how when it matters, man's will is of vital importance, and when it's inconvenient, man's will gets thrown under the bus. Care to explain why that is?

Calling what I say silly and ridiculous is a red herring, because you apparently cannot own up to what you have said, and where those words lead. Calling what others say silly, ridiculous, and hinting that stupidity or ignorance is the underlying reason, is properly classified as baiting and goading. Holding others to account for every word they say, while trying to avoid being held to that same standard, is poor debate tactics.
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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There is no limitation on the word.


No, but the better word is simply "chose" instead of 'elected'. Yes, they both involve a choice. But let's not get picky. The Bible makes a point of who has been elected, and such election IS special. Or, do you view Biblical election is just a simple choice?


The key here is in your acknowledgement of the "more formal sound" to it. That goes to the point; elections are special. You didn't formally elect one sandwich over another. You simply chose one over the other. Just like your socks that you chose this morning, provided you did put some on.

The very fact that elect has a "formal sound" to it makes it definitely more special than just choosing something over something else.

And this goes directly to the definition by the ISBE on election: being selected for special privilege and service.

So far, no one has even tried to refute this definition from the ISBE. A while ago someone tried to dismiss the ISBE as just an "uninspired" text. But it was written by Biblical scholars to explain Biblical terms.

So, if that definition isn't correct, please proceed with your refutation.

Again, why are you arguing over two separate English terms when the Greek uses one word (inflected to three functions)? Who cares what the English means and the subtle nuances behind the terms; we should be more interested in how the Biblical authors used the greek terms and what they meant by them. You said "let's not get picky", and yet here you are trying to denote a slightest difference between two [English] words so as to prove/disprove a concept that was established apart from them. And besides, etymological scope is but one facet; you still have to deal with contextual implications which ultimately shape the definition. For example, Romans 9:11 gives a clear explanation as to the operation of election and what it entails. You could use as many lexical references as you want and it still doesn't change the contextual inferences made. To outline the ridiculousness of this concept, here is an extreme example:

"When I talk about salami, I refer to it as "meatballs". By the way, I really like meatball sandwiches."

Now let's try and define what a "meatball sandwich" is in the second clause by simply referring to the meaning of words, and not pay attention to the first clause and contextual evidence.

Merriam-Webster says a meatball is "a small ball of chopped or ground meat often mixed with bread crumbs and spices". Would that definition be wrong? No. It would be correct. However is that definition relevant, given the contextual evidence provided in the proceeding statement? Of course not!

Context has the ability to shape the definition of a term, to limit its scope, to change its function, etc. That is a very basic contextual and hermeneutical principle, and yet I see it ignored on this particular forum time and time again. So excuse my very basic explanation as I was not meaning to insult, but I found it important and fair to make that point since you seem to be laboring over a definition of English terms and have yet to bring anything up about actual contextual or lexical evidence.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Getting back to the actual discussion, you can't use Acts 16:30 to prove synergism because not enough information is given.
I can and I did.

But I'm using synergism in the proper meaning, not your meaning. I was a little surprised that your definition didn't include the idea of man "cooperating" with God in saving him. You know, man's belief cooperates with God before God saves him. Something like that.

But I don't buy the idea that man's belief motivates God in any way. Because God's plan was in existence in eternity past; which was to save believers. So when someone does believe, God is only keeping His promise and staying true to His own plan to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

God is motivated by his own integrity. When He makes a promise, He is bound by His own perfection to keep His word and make good on the promise.

Belief from man does not obligate God in any way. But when man believes, God is obligated by His own promise.

Please don't ignore or dismiss this as "irrelevant" or not part of the discussion. It sure is. If any of what I've said here isn't correct, please resist the urge to fire off a drive-by one-liner quip, and actually address my points with evidence that refutes it. If there is any.
 
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stan1953

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Divine impulse, but not against our will? If we are so willing, why do we need to be drawn?

Another example of equivocal language.
We are willing once God draws us and we truthfully acknowledge and accept what He shows us. He does not RAM it down out throats as RT would have us believe.
 
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stan1953

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I did. Faith before regeneration. That's synergism. Faith is the catalyst for God to regenerate.

Using monergistic vernacular to try and explain synergistic POVs will not work Hammster, which I'm sure you well know.
Faith in Jesus is the catalyst for salvation, which in JESUS' own words, is to be BORN AGAIN.
Hence His statements on a few occasions; YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU.
He didn't say "my faith", He said YOUR faith.
 
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stan1953

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What on earth are you responding to? I was talking about John 6:44, the word ἕλκω and its exegetical implications. You have offered nothing in reference to what I said. If you want to maintain that ἕλκω is something different than what the Reformers taught it to be, then please respond to my post directly and exegete John 6:44.


I was responding to your mention of what I said and it's implication. I have no idea why you could not understand that?
 
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Hammster

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I can and I did.

But I'm using synergism in the proper meaning, not your meaning. I was a little surprised that your definition didn't include the idea of man "cooperating" with God in saving him. You know, man's belief cooperates with God before God saves him. Something like that.

But I don't buy the idea that man's belief motivates God in any way. Because God's plan was in existence in eternity past; which was to save believers. So when someone does believe, God is only keeping His promise and staying true to His own plan to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

God is motivated by his own integrity. When He makes a promise, He is bound by His own perfection to keep His word and make good on the promise.

Belief from man does not obligate God in any way. But when man believes, God is obligated by His own promise.

Please don't ignore or dismiss this as "irrelevant" or not part of the discussion. It sure is. If any of what I've said here isn't correct, please resist the urge to fire off a drive-by one-liner quip, and actually address my points with evidence that refutes it. If there is any.

I understand what you believe. And I'm not even arguing against that here. I'm just saying that you can't get that from Acts 16:30 without coming into with a presupposition.
 
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FreeGrace2

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All languages change over time. Word usage and word meanings change. There are Greek Scholars who have literally spent years learning that modern Greek and Koine Greek have differences in usage, meaning, and intent. That is why a Lexicon is one of many tools to find the meaning, but it is not the final authority on Greek.
So, who is, then? If a lexicon is one of "many tools", what are the others?

Sure. The post I responded to.
Maybe the amount of posts generated on this particular thread hasn't risen to your level of consciousness, but I asked for a specific post. That means post #. Not some vague response. I don't have the time to try to dig through possible pages of posts to determine what you might have meant. If you don't provide the exact post #, forget it. That only means there really isn't one.

Please tell us how a man with an unchanged heart can believe on Christ. He can't.
What makes your opinion so true? An equally valid question is, why NOT? We know from Scripture that God created mankind to seek Him (Acts 17:26-27), and that God has revealed His divine attributes and existence to everyone (Rom 1:19-20). So, what's stopping man from believing? Seems your insinuation is that God's creative attempt is less than satisfactory, if man cannot seek (or believe) in God or what He promises. And that view is quite unsatisfactory to me. Completely so.

He's dead in his trespasses and sins.
Spiritual death only means separated from God, not lack of function as your next point is claiming.

Dead man cannot do anything to make themselves alive, either physically or spiritually.
This isn't even close to the issue. Spiritually dead men CAN and DO hear the voice of the Son of God (Jn 5:25). No one here is arguing that man makes themselves alive, so please quit with all these silly red herrings.

Scripture says that while we were dead (in trespasses and sins), GOD quickened us.
Sure. And who are the "us" in THAT context? Paul included himself with his audience. So, who was his audience? Believers in Ephesians.

Here is what Paul was saying: God quickens believers.

God doesn't require our faith for that. He quickens us so that we CAN believe and receive Christ.
Except that there aren't any verses that say or teach that. So there is no reason on earth to believe any of this.

God DOES require belief before He will save anyone. Seen in the myriads of verses that link belief to eternal life/salvation.

If one has believed, they decided to believe, and decisions involve the will. the silly red herring is trying to deny that the will has anything to do with anything, let alone faith.
Not really. If your statement were true, then people could will themselves to believe anything, whether sane or not. But no one can will themself to believe anything. Yes, we choose what we will believe, but it is NOT based on man's will.

I will believe your claim here IF you can prove to me that you are able to will yourself to believe that Santa Claus actually exists and brings presents to everyone at Christmas time. Please let me know how that works out.

Unless you can prove your claim that one wills what they believe, there is no reason to accept that view.

Man believes from the heart because he decides to do so, which is an act of the will. Are you aware of this difference?
This is all in error. It is NOT an act of the will. The challenge has been made. When you can prove to me and this thread that you can will yourself to believe in Santa Claus, I will believe it. But not until then.

Any act of faith also involves the will.
I will be waiting for your proof of this claim. I've given a pretty simple thing to believe. Can you do it?

It's odd how when it matters, man's will is of vital importance, and when it's inconvenient, man's will gets thrown under the bus. Care to explain why that is?
When have I EVER even hinted at the "vital importance" of man's will? Again, I'd like specific post #s, so I can check them out. Trust but verify is my code.

Calling what I say silly and ridiculous is a red herring, because you apparently cannot own up to what you have said, and where those words lead.
All that is required is to provide actual post #s to prove your claim. Easy enough, if there are any that support your claim.

Calling what others say silly, ridiculous, and hinting that stupidity or ignorance is the underlying reason, is properly classified as baiting and goading.
Hold on right there. I've said NOTHING about "studity or ignorance". Those most definitely ARE goading and flaming. But statements that ARE silly or ridiculous will be noted. If one doesn't want their posts to be described that way, it's imperative that one doesn't make a silly or ridiculous post. :)

Holding others to account for every word they say, while trying to avoid being held to that same standard, is poor debate tactics.
This is just an ill-informed judgment of my standards. Please DO hold my words to account.

Why do you think I frequently ask other posters to refute my points specifically? Because if I say anything that can be proven false, I surely want to know about it.

We both don't want to be wrong. But the difference is that I ask for refutation of my points, and your response to any refutation or criticism is overly sensitive.

I've gotten very strong disagreements with all the Calvinists who post here. But I'm still waiting for actual refutation, which has not been presented. When I ask, the usual response is, "already done that", when all that was done was to reject what I posted, or simply disagree with it, or worse, ignore or dodge what I posted. None of that counts as refutation.
 
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Hammster

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Another example of equivocal language.
We are willing once God draws us and we truthfully acknowledge and accept what He shows us. He does not RAM it down out throats as RT would have us believe.

That doesn't help define what you mean by "draw".
 
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Hammster

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Using monergistic vernacular to try and explain synergistic POVs will not work Hammster, which I'm sure you well know.
Faith in Jesus is the catalyst for salvation, which in JESUS' own words, is to be BORN AGAIN.
Hence His statements on a few occasions; YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU.
He didn't say "my faith", He said YOUR faith.

I know. We are saved by grace through faith. But Paul breaks it down even more when He says we are justified by faith. Nowhere will you find scripture talking about being regenerated by faith.
 
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stan1953

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Getting back to the actual discussion, you can't use Acts 16:30 to prove synergism because not enough information is given.

You continue to try and use scripture in single one off excerpts instead of using it in the collective it was meant to be used.

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.
Very clearly the jailer did what Paul instructed because he KNEW what Paul said about Jesus was true. He wasn't MADE to believe it, he CAME to believe it.

The bottom line is the more you refuse to see what God says in His word the less likely you are to EVER believing it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Context has the ability to shape the definition of a term, to limit its scope, to change its function, etc. That is a very basic contextual and hermeneutical principle, and yet I see it ignored on this particular forum time and time again. So excuse my very basic explanation as I was not meaning to insult, but I found it important and fair to make that point since you seem to be laboring over a definition of English terms and have yet to bring anything up about actual contextual or lexical evidence.
OK, please provide any verse that uses the Greek equivalents of "elect/election" that link election to salvation. I'm specifically referring to these 3 words:
ekloge (noun), eklegomai (verb) and eklectos (adjective).

These are the 3 Greek words that have been translated "elect" (verb and adjective), and "election: (noun).

There are at least 2 other Greek words translated "choose/chose". Neither of them has ever been translated as "elect".
 
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FreeGrace2

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I understand what you believe. And I'm not even arguing against that here. I'm just saying that you can't get that from Acts 16:30 without coming into with a presupposition.
That would be your right and opinion, of course. But the fact remains that one must believe before one will be saved by God. Salvation is conditional.
 
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stan1953

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I know. We are saved by grace through faith. But Paul breaks it down even more when He says we are justified by faith. Nowhere will you find scripture talking about being regenerated by faith.

As I said, why would scripture use monergistic vernacular?

Are you trying to lend more force and credibility to what you think Paul said than to what Jesus said? Bobbing and weaving like this will never allow you to see the truth if you don't stand still and receive it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I know. We are saved by grace through faith. But Paul breaks it down even more when He says we are justified by faith. Nowhere will you find scripture talking about being regenerated by faith.
Not true. In Eph 2:5, Paul wrote this:

even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

I know there were no parentheses in Greek, but the translators felt them to be necessary for clarity. So what does the parenthesis refer to? Being "made us alive together with Christ".

So, in v.5, Paul has linked being regenerated (made alive) with being saved.

Then, in v.8 Paul makes it even more clear: we are saved (made alive) by grace THROUGH faith.

So, by faith we are saved, justified, and made alive.
 
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Hammster

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You continue to try and use scripture in single one off excerpts instead of using it in the collective it was meant to be used.

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.
Very clearly the jailer did what Paul instructed because he KNEW what Paul said about Jesus was true. He wasn't MADE to believe it, he CAME to believe it.

The bottom line is the more you refuse to see what God says in His word the less likely you are to EVER believing it.

I familiar with the passage. And nothing you posted changes anything. I could say that the passage proves monergism if I were to presuppose my views on the text.
 
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Hammster

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That would be your right and opinion, of course. But the fact remains that one must believe before one will be saved by God. Salvation is conditional.

I'm aware that's your opinion.
 
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Hammster

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As I said, why would scripture use monergistic vernacular?

Are you trying to lend more force and credibility to what you think Paul said than to what Jesus said? Bobbing and weaving like this will never allow you to see the truth if you don't stand still and receive it.

I'm not lending more force to what Paul said over Jesus since Jesus ultimately wrote it all. But Luke is a narrative describing what happened. Paul is explaining what happens in the foreground. They compliment each other.
 
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stan1953

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I familiar with the passage. And nothing you posted changes anything. I could say that the passage proves monergism if I were to presuppose my views on the text.

Thanks for proving my point...all assertions with no meat.
 
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Hammster

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Thanks for proving my point...all assertions with no meat.

There's nothing to prove, really. It's a narrative account that tells us nothing of regeneration, justification, etc.
 
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