Is This True? - Limited Atonement

[FreeGrace2]

The context of the parable is not about saved believers that had to miss out on the feast due to their works or lack there of.
The context is the Pharisees, and Jews, supposed children of the kingdom that rejected Christ, killed God's servants, had no interest in the Son.

Then who are all those INside the banquet hall and celebrating?

As to the man that was thrown out "Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This is a description of Hell. Similar to the warnings in the book of Jude concerning false, troublesome members in their mist. :
"12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. "

Yes, Jude does describe hell. But the parable of Matt 22 does not.

 

[stenerson]

Wow!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wow!

Yeah, amazing, huh.

 

[stenerson]

Yeah, amazing, huh.

Yep, amazingly ridiculous exegesis. In all fairness to Arminians though, most of them at least get those parables right.

 

[Hammster]

OUTside the banquet hall at night. Follow the words in the parable. It's all quite clear.

So outer darkness equals outside the banquets hall? And that's where we find gnashing of teeth?

What a horrifying picture of heaven and the wedding feast your theology has to paint.

 

[Hammster]

The guy wasn't thrown out of heaven, just not participating in the celebration, due to loss of that reward.

You didn't address my post.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yep, amazingly ridiculous exegesis. In all fairness to Arminians though, most of them at least get those parables right.

Arminians aren't the issue here. I'm neither Arm or Calv.

Your criticism only lacks one thing; support for it. It's easy to say anything. Proving or supporting what is said is quite a different thing.

It appears that RT doesn't allow for any believer to be rewarded in heaven. That all are on equal footing there. So any parable about rewards just goes over their heads.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So outer darkness equals outside the banquets hall? And that's where we find gnashing of teeth?

Only in 1 parable.

What a horrifying picture of heaven and the wedding feast your theology has to paint.

Yep, for those who didn't persevere, live by faith, or were disobedient.

But what's so horrible about the wedding feast that you think my theology paints? Getting thrown out is horrible, and every believer needs to be warned of that, based on how they have lived their life. But for the life of me, I do not understand how my theology paints a horrible picture of the wedding feast.

Please explain, something that so frequently is lacking in your posts (explanations).

 

[FreeGrace2]

You didn't address my post.

OK, what did I miss?

 

[Hammster]

Only in 1 parable.


Yep, for those who didn't persevere, live by faith, or were disobedient.

But what's so horrible about the wedding feast that you think my theology paints? Getting thrown out is horrible, and every believer needs to be warned of that, based on how they have lived their life. But for the life of me, I do not understand how my theology paints a horrible picture of the wedding feast.

Please explain, something that so frequently is lacking in your posts (explanations).

What's horrible is the wedding feast isn't about individuals. It's not an awards banquet at the end of the year where the top producers get recognized. It's a celebration of Christ and His bride (all believers). Yet you think some are excluded.

 

[Hammster]

OK, what did I miss?

This part:

Isn't the wedding feast the celebration of Christ and His Bride? Isn't it about Christ? Are you seriously saying that He will be celebrating with an incomplete bride?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What's horrible is the wedding feast isn't about individuals. It's not an awards banquet at the end of the year where the top producers get recognized.

Where did I ever make such an outrageous claim? Your imagination is over-active.

It's a celebration of Christ and His bride (all believers). Yet you think some are excluded.

That's just one of the problems of Calvinism, which views all believers equally in eternity, which is just not the case. There are many references to being rewarded in eternity.

 

[Hammster]

Where did I ever make such an outrageous claim? Your imagination is over-active.

Have you forgotten where you believe the good Christians get a seat at the table, and the bad ones are in the outer darkness?

That's just one of the problems of Calvinism, which views all believers equally in eternity, which is just not the case. There are many references to being rewarded in eternity.

False accusation.

 

[StephanieSomer]

No doubt many will disagree with what I'm going to say, but this is the only way I have been able to make arminianism and calvinism get along in my mind. Both have substantial Scriptures to support their views, so to dismiss either one can't possibly be a full truth, unless one can justify tossing Scripture out, which I cannot.

Salvation is much more than forgiveness of sins. If all we had was forgiveness, we'd still have no future. We must also have new life, for this life is not eternal. Plus, simply having forgiveness and new life will not preclude the possibility of committing more sin. So, we need sanctification. And the list goes on.

Forgiveness was procured by Christ's death. New life was procured by His resurrection. Sanctification is through the Holy Spirit, which Christ told us would not come if He went not away. So, our sanctification is a result of His glorification.

Different aspects of our fullness of salvation come about through different aspects of Christ's work. And His work is STILL ongoing. We are told that He ever lives to make intercession for us to the Father.

We are told that the wages of sin is death. It is because of sin that our current life is not eternal and will one day end. Had there been no payment for sins, all men would die and that would be it. However, Christ's death paid the penalty for sin, which is death. Therefore, all men WILL be resurrected one day. Some to punishment, some to blessing, but all WILL rise. That resurrection of all men is a result of Christ's death. So, Christ DID die for all. "Christ died for the ungodly."

However, not all will be saved, because not all take advantage of the rest of salvation. While He did die for all, He did not rise for all, because not all will accept the new life which is offered. Paul says in Romans 6:3-5,

"Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his."

The "we" and "us" are the Church. He is not speaking to anyone outside here.


After forgiveness, which was a free gift to all men, the rest is conditional. Conditioned on faith. Only IF we have been united with Christ are the rest of salvation's benefits reaped.


So, I think the best way I could define what I'm saying is that atonement wasn't limited, but everything else that is needed to HAVE salvation is.


The atonement procured only the cancellation of the penalty of sin, death. The atonement alone did not procure any of the rest of salvation's benefits.

Christ died for all, but not all are, or will be, saved.

 

[sdowney717]

The atonement procured only the cancellation of the penalty of sin, death. The atonement alone did not procure any of the rest of salvation's benefits.

Christ died for all, but not all are, or will be, saved.

What is the Lake of Fire which is the second death?
Do those who go there have atonement for their sins?
Are they experiencing the wages or penalty for their sins?
Why do they go there, is it because they died in their sins?

What means this then, the wrath of God abides on unbelievers.
John 3

35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Romans 6:23
New King James Version (NKJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does that verse have meaning anymore if you say

'The atonement procured only the cancellation of the penalty of sin, death.'
For who was it procured? Can't be universal.

Think hard about the concepts here about propitiation and atonement and the wages of sin.
What your saying is inconsistent

 

[stenerson]

After forgiveness, which was a free gift to all men, the rest is conditional. Conditioned on faith. Only IF we have been united with Christ are the rest of salvation's benefits reaped.


So, I think the best way I could define what I'm saying is that atonement wasn't limited, but everything else that is needed to HAVE salvation is.


The atonement procured only the cancellation of the penalty of sin, death. The atonement alone did not procure any of the rest of salvation's benefits.

Christ died for all, but not all are, or will be, saved.

Sure, that's the Arminian line. Christ didn't actually accomplish anything, He made salvation possible.
Scripture takes another view. "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."
So yes, the benefits of His atonement actually procured all of salvation's benefits.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sure, that's the Arminian line. Christ didn't actually accomplish anything, He made salvation possible.
Scripture takes another view. "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."
So yes, the benefits of His atonement actually procured all of salvation's benefits.

You've missed just one thing: who are those "who are being sanctified"? Believers. Man is saved br grace through faith.

It appears that your view is that Christ's death saves people. Where is faith in that? Nowhere. Yet, Scripture is full of references that clearly state that salvation is by faith.

If Christ's death alone saves those He died for (RT view), then faith has no place at all. It's just an add-on, another gift to be given.

Scripture does not support RT.

 

[Hammster]

You've missed just one thing: who are those "who are being sanctified"? Believers. Man is saved br grace through faith.

It appears that your view is that Christ's death saves people. Where is faith in that? Nowhere. Yet, Scripture is full of references that clearly state that salvation is by faith.

If Christ's death alone saves those He died for (RT view), then faith has no place at all. It's just an add-on, another gift to be given.

Scripture does not support RT.

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15 NASB)

This is the same group that's being sanctified.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15 NASB)

This is the same group that's being sanctified.

Right. Only believers. btw, the phrase "those who have been called MAY receive the promise" is significant.

Matt 22:14 says "many are called, but few are chosen". So not all called are chosen. But those who HAVE received the promise (gospel) are being sanctified.

 

[Hammster]

Right. Only believers. btw, the phrase "those who have been called MAY receive the promise" is significant.

Matt 22:14 says "many are called, but few are chosen". So not all called are chosen. But those who HAVE received the promise (gospel) are being sanctified.

The word "called" in Matt 22 is not the same as in Hebrews 9. The same word in Hebrews is, however, the same word in Romans 8:30 "those He called He also justified". So Romans and Hebrews agree with each other, and the parable in Matt 22 is about something else.