Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)



The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I’m referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)




DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?



4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

 

[God Is Immortal]

Fire may symbolize the wrath of God. Affliction.

Is hell a spiritual prison?

What is a King without a castle? What is a castle without a dungeon? What is a dungeon without a dragon?

Revelation 19:20
These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

John 15:6
If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:6
If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 3:9
Even now the ax also lies at the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.”

Mark 9:48
where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’

Mark 9:45
It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched—

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 13:50
and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:42
and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing floor. He will gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 3:10
Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.

Psalm 89:46
How long, Yahweh? Will you hide yourself forever? Will your wrath burn like fire?

Lamentations 4:11
Yahweh has accomplished his wrath, he has poured out his fierce anger; He has kindled a fire in Zion, which has devoured its foundations.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

From what the Bible teaches damnation will be far worse.

"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:41-42)

It's God desire that no one should perish, though.

 

[Der Alte]

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

Based on historical evidence the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)

Typical out-of-context proof text. This verse condemns Israel for sacrificing their children to the pagan god Moloch. A practice forbidden specifically by God.

The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I’m referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

This verse does not say Christ died and went to hell. It says His soul was not left in hell because Jesus was never in hell.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.

5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

See quote from Jewish Encyclopedia, above. The Jews believed in a place of unending fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and sheol.

6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

Rev 14:10-11
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

That the torment is unending is reemphasized by the phrase "they have no rest day nor night," 10[sup]100[/sup] times 10[sup]100[/sup] centuries from now God's unchanging word will still say "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.

See Rev 14:10-11.

8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

Irrelevant. In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyedpoof gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[BobRyan]

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment?

Matt 10:28 God destroys both body and soul in fiery hell.
Jude - God gives us Sodom and Gomorrah as real examples of real literal "eternal fire" really destroying the wicked.
Rev 20 - the entire chapter explains the real event of the real lake of fire with real wicked tormented - consumed - by real God at the real day of judgment.

Rev 14:10-11 - the real wicked in real torment in the real presence of our real God and his real angels.

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

God destroyed real women, children, elderly etc in the real flood -but does not condone our doing that. God is allowed to execute judgment "vengeance is mine - I will repay"

Peter said in 2Peter 3 that the future destruction by fire in the future is as real as the destruction of the world by water in the past.

How much Bible would you need to deny to deny all of this?

4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?

Jesus did not spend any days or nights in hell - he was in "hades" the grave. Only in Greek mythology is the grave a fiery ghenna type hell.

5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

They are correctly translated as "the grave" but that is not true of ghenna and lake of fire. Neither of which are called sheol or "the grave".

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.

The Bible does not teach that.

8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

Literal torment in literal lake of fire - literal fiery hell is in the Bible - but not eternal torment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What was or would be our fate, the fate of the entire human race without Jesus?

Whether one thinks the Bible teaches it or not, I think a good case can be made for the immortality of every human soul. God did not just create another animal, flesh and a living spirit unique to each existence (plant & animal). The Creation story indicates man was special, different than every other living, breathing animal made. We can call it whatever we like, but something about each of us is what makes every one of us a unique person. If that something special is not immortal, then when we die - whatever that something special is, it ceases to be. If we describe that something special as a "person", what makes each of us unique, then at death each person is then no more if there nothing about us which is immortal. Since the Bible depicts the dead talking and being aware (even before a Resurrection), am unclear why anyone would think death represents the end of each person.

Regardless, if we cease to exist as a person at death, then at that point we can only imagine God creating an exact copy of each person again, but that is not a resurrection of the same person. Nor would a Judgement be possible in that scenario, at least not a Just one.

Heaven and Hell then, whatever we imagine those to be, are obviously depicted as opposing destinations for people after this life. As opposites destinations for immortal souls (having or not having immortal bodies does not really change things) am hardpressed to think of one destination as eternal and the other not. If it is Just that a life can be judged to award eternal bliss then why would it be unJust for the opposite Judgement to be eternal?

 

[Phantasman]

What was or would be our fate, the fate of the entire human race without Jesus?

Whether one thinks the Bible teaches it or not, I think a good case can be made for the immortality of every human soul. God did not just create another animal, flesh and a living spirit unique to each existence (plant & animal). The Creation story indicates man was special, different than every other living, breathing animal made. We can call it whatever we like, but something about each of us is what makes every one of us a unique person. If that something special is not immortal, then when we die - whatever that something special is, it ceases to be. If we describe that something special as a "person", what makes each of us unique, then at death each person is then no more if there nothing about us which is immortal. Since the Bible depicts the dead talking and being aware (even before a Resurrection), am unclear why anyone would think death represents the end of each person.

Regardless, if we cease to exist as a person at death, then at that point we can only imagine God creating an exact copy of each person again, but that is not a resurrection of the same person. Nor would a Judgement be possible in that scenario, at least not a Just one.

Heaven and Hell then, whatever we imagine those to be, are obviously depicted as opposing destinations for people after this life. As opposites destinations for immortal souls (having or not having immortal bodies does not really change things) am hardpressed to think of one destination as eternal and the other not. If it is Just that a life can be judged to award eternal bliss then why would it be unJust for the opposite Judgement to be eternal?

Comparing our life on Earth to eternity is but a passing moment as related in time. Does one have to suffer an eternity to "learn a lesson" for a moment in time?

I think we will all be surprised in the end.

 

[Mediate]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)



The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I’m referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)




DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?



4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

No, it isn't. Go back long before King James, right back to the scripts we've found from barely a hundred yers after Jesus' death, and you'll see the word 'hell' doesn't exist. The word used is 'gehenna', and 'gehenna' is a valley where, as you point out, kids were burned. The practice was an abomination, and every time Jesus references 'gehenna' he uses it in the context of choice. You can choose to be kind and patient and see 'heaven', 'the kingdom of God', which is 'within you', or you can let your spare 'eye' bring you to seeing views that lead you away from a clear conscience into stumbling, into conflicting ideas and eventually to be like those of 'gehenna', whose humanity was gone, with evil taking its place.

The first choice is better for your life.

God is always likened to the 'pyr', or fire. He as already instated the physics of this world, our brains, mental cognitions, to certain ends. Earthly torment and mental conflict is not 'true life' like Jesus wanted us to find. Few will find it, but thankfully, for those who don't, there was a ransom.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Comparing our life on Earth to eternity is but a passing moment as related in time. Does one have to suffer an eternity to "learn a lesson" for a moment in time?

I think we will all be surprised in the end.

That is assuming all punishment is meant to teach a lesson. False assumption.

In a way also assuming that life is meant to teach a lesson and if we learn it (correctly I guess) we gain Heaven. Misguided if not false - requires more thought than I have time for at the moment.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Fire may symbolize the wrath of God. Affliction.

Is hell a spiritual prison?

What is a King without a castle? What is a castle without a dungeon? What is a dungeon without a dragon?

Revelation 19:20
These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

John 15:6
If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:6
If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 3:9
Even now the ax also lies at the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.”

Mark 9:48
where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’

Mark 9:45
It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched—

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 13:50
and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:42
and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 7:19
Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing floor. He will gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 3:10
Even now the ax lies at the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.

Psalm 89:46
How long, Yahweh? Will you hide yourself forever? Will your wrath burn like fire?

Lamentations 4:11
Yahweh has accomplished his wrath, he has poured out his fierce anger; He has kindled a fire in Zion, which has devoured its foundations.

ALTER2EGO -to- GOD IS IMMORTAL:

If the above verses is your idea of literal hellfire torment, let me assure you they are not. You quoted a list of verses that, based upon their context, are all using figurative speech.


FYI: Figurative speech is never literal.


If you want me to direct you to the context of your verses, so that you can see why they are all using figurative speech, let me know.

 

[Alter2Ego]

From what the Bible teaches damnation will be far worse.

"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:41-42)

It's God desire that no one should perish, though.

ALTER2EGO -to- ORDINARY CLAY:

Your above quotation is from one of Jesus' parables aka illustrations. Parables/illustrations are never literal.

 

[Der Alte]

From what the Bible teaches damnation will be far worse.

"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:41-42)

It's God desire that no one should perish, though.

Your above quotation is from one of Jesus' parables aka illustrations. Parables/illustrations are never literal.

Wrong! It is not a parable although it has one parabolic term, "stumbling block." Which means, not a literal block but, people who are a hindrance, or impedance. This is a cop-out response.. When scripture, as as written, contradicts someone's false doctrines, just dismiss it as a parable or a metaphor, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

If the above verses is your idea of literal hellfire torment, let me assure you they are not. You quoted a list of verses that, based upon their context, are all using figurative speech.

FYI: Figurative speech is never literal.

If you want me to direct you to the context of your verses, so that you can see why they are all using figurative speech, let me know.

Please do show us the context which proves these verses figurative. Another copout response. When scripture, as written, contradicts someone's false teaching, just dismiss it as figurative.

 

[Mediate]

Wrong! It is not a parable although it has one parabolic term, "stumbling block." Which means, not a literal block but, people who are a hindrance, or impedance. This is a cop-out response.. When scripture, as as written, contradicts someone's false doctrines, just dismiss it as a parable or a metaphor, etc.

Stumbling blocks aren't people, they're perspectives, just like gouging out an 'eye' that causes you to stumble is foregoing an idea that brings you mental conflict at the risk of compromising your conscience.

You gotta stop attributing every personified 'thing' in the bible to people, because when you do that, very little of it can be resolved without tension.

You assume that stumbling blocks are people because you've been indoctrinated to believe people get burned for eternity.

If you want a correct translation from a non-denominational source:

'The son of man will send out his agents and they will gather out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and the breaking of his laws and they will be thrown into the fiery furnace with the crying and gnashing of teeth. Then righteousness shines like the sun in the kingdom of the father'.

This as at the end of the parable of seed, wheat and thorns. The weeds around a plant are the evils of that person, the wheat is the goodness. Almost every wheat strand will have a thorn latched to it, or choking it. When the wheat is ready and grown, it'll be separated from the weeds that choked it.

In otherwords, when you see Jesus kingdom 'within you', what happens is the wheat lives and the thorny weeds die'.

The bible is one long psychological moral lesson, for the INDIVIDUAL to focus and meditate on. To see 'true life'.

 

[Alter2Ego]

From what the Bible teaches damnation will be far worse.

"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:41-42)

It's God desire that no one should perish, though.

ALTER2EGO -to- ORDINARY CLAY:

Your above quotation is from one of Jesus' parables aka illustrations. Parables/illustrations are never literal.

Wrong! It is not a parable although it has one parabolic term, "stumbling block." Which means, not a literal block but, people who are a hindrance, or impedance. This is a cop-out response.. When scripture, as as written, contradicts someone's false doctrines, just dismiss it as a parable or a metaphor, etc.

ALTER2EGO -to- DER ALTER:

Correction: The verses at Matthew 13:41-42 are using figurative speech.


I notice that you had no problem recognizing that the words "stumbling block" are not literal, despite the fact they are part of the same account at verses 41 and 42 where Jesus is giving a warning of future prophetic events.

 

[Der Alte]

Correction: The verses at Matthew 13:41-42 are using figurative speech.

I notice that you had no problem recognizing that the words "stumbling block" are not literal, despite the fact they are part of the same account at verses 41 and 42 where Jesus is giving a warning of future prophetic events.

Being prophetic does not make it figurative. The fact that a figure of speech occurs in a verse, chapter or book does not make the entire verse, chapter, or book figurative. It is simply a copout which is used by various false teaching groups whenever scripture, as written, contradicts a false teachng, they simply dismiss it as, what I call, SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative, anything but literal.

Origen Commentary on Matthew Book X

ANF10. Bibliographic Synopsis; General Index - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Only it must be observed, that we are already taught by the parable of the tares and the similitude set forth, that the angels are to be entrusted with the power to distinguish and separate the evil from the righteous; for it is said above, "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth."​

 

[Der Alte]

This message is hidden because Mediate is on your ignore list.

Hope you don't mind.

 

[Timothew]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.

This is a good question. I've never seen anyone who believed the theory of eternal conscious torment do this.

If the Bible truly says that wicked people go to hell when they die where they are tormented or tortured alive forever, could someone please quote four Bible verses that actually say this? Could someone even post ONE verse that says this?

I believe what the Bible says, that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Eternal Life is a gift from God, If a person does not have eternal life, they will perish just as the Bible says.

 

[Timothew]

And Here is the Scriptural Support why I don't believe in the fire torture pit.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Four verses?

Won't bother with giving text as no one opposed here will agree any of this means what the orthodox hold the Apostles taught. We also use many of the same verse to arrive at opposing position.

The difference is the orthodox view presents a whole and consistent picture - not disjointed verses taken out of context to suggest a position already held and also difficult to align with other verses.

I would start with these.

Dan. 12:2, Luke 16:19-31, Mark 9:43-48, Matt. 5:29-30, Matt. 18:8-9

Matt. 7:21-23 (where would they "go" if not to Hell??),


Matt. 26:24 (obviously not going some place nice, and no hint of an end to it not being nice),

What could be worse than to never have been born, (as in this place they "go" to)?

Destruction
Matt. 7:13-14
Luke 13:23-24
Wrath
John 3:36
Suffering
Matt. 8:11-12
Matt. 13:42
​

None of those verses speak of an "ending" to that experience which opposes an understanding of "destruction" which insists on "to be no more". Nor would an eventual grant of pardon into Heaven be supported. Also not possible to imagine "to be no more" being worse than these things described by Jesus as being "where these people go". Even if one imagines a little bit of suffering prior to being no more - an end to it is a relief and provides a hope (that it has an end) that it is not evident in God Himself describing it as a fate which having "never been born" would be better than.

What did the Apostles and the early leaders of the Church
say?

Not inherit (inheritance or not inheriting is not something which one describes as ending - either get something or not)
1 Cor. 6:9-10
Gal. 5:19-21
​

But what happens to them?

Same as above -destuction, wrath, suffering - consistent
Rom. 2:6-8
Phil. 3:18-19
Separation from the Kingdom of God
2 Thess. 1:8-9
eternal fire
Jude 7
Torment forever and ever
Rev. 14:11-12
Rev. 19:1-3
darkness
2 Pet. 2:17
​