Lutheran vs Orthodox: What's Are the Main Differences?

[Cappadocious]

Perhaps because in Lutheranism grace isn't a "thing", but rather God's disposition. God turned toward man, in Christ, to come and save man--that's grace.

So Lutherans do not view grace as a "work" or action of God, such that one can say grace has X effect on humans?

I wouldn't say grace is a "thing" either. But I wouldn't say that God smote the firstborn of Egypt through his disposition toward wrath, or that Christ has a mere disposition of love for me. I would say that God smote the firstborn of Egypt by exerting wrath upon it. Christ loves, he does not merely have the disposition.

 

[cerette]

I'd be interested to know about the limiting of the number of sacraments, and what makes something decidedly a sacrament, or not, from the Lutheran perspective?

Actually, I'd be interested in the definition of "Sacrament" from both points of view as well. (that might be interesting as a general question for all of the churches that believe in sacraments.)

The Lutheran view:
A sacrament is a sacred act instituted by God Himself, in which there are certain visible means connected with His Word, and by which God offers, gives and seals unto us the forgiveness of sins which Christ has earned for us.
Baptism: Word & Water
Lord's Supper: Word & Bread & Wine

 

[cerette]

Hi Cerette! Very good to see you!!!

I think this was part of an analogy considered before when I was trying very hard to understand salvation from a Lutheran point of view.

As well as whether the drowning man was able to grab the life preserver and whether that constituted "saving himself".

Overall, I came away with the STRONG idea that Lutherans teach most emphatically that the work of salvation is entirely God's, in order to give all glory to God.

Good to see you too!

Well, not only "in order to give all glory to God" but basically because we believe that is what the Scriptures teach.

 

[KEPLER]

The Lutheran view:
A sacrament is a sacred act instituted by God Himself, in which there are certain visible means connected with His Word, and by which God offers, gives and seals unto us the forgiveness of sins which Christ has earned for us.
Baptism: Word & Water
Lord's Supper: Word & Bread & Wine

Exactly. Lutherans believe that God has a long history of attaching his promises to physical things (not because he has to, but so that we mere mortals have tangible evidence of his work). Things like snakes on sticks, talking donkeys, blood over a door, a baby in a manger. In these cases, God said, "do this," or "listen to this" and there I will be. Just so, God attached certain specific promises to very specific things: baptism by water, bread and wine at the Lord's Table, and the declaration of His Word.

 

[prodromos]

Kylissa, have you listened to the podcast series Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy on Ancient Faith Radio?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

1. Orthodox have an episcopal structure, which distinguishes between presbyters and bishops. Lutherans do not.

About half of Lutherans worldwide have an episcopal structure. The real different is that Lutherans do not believe an episcopal structure is absolutely necessary in order for a church to be a truly apostolic church.

2. Lutherans are monergists, while Orthodox are synergists. But, when talked out, the difference between Orthodox synergism and Lutheran monergism may not be so large.

I think this is the key and crucial difference. Forensic justification by grace alone through faith alone, as applied in the proclaimed word of law and gospel and the administered sacraments of baptism and holy communion.

3. Orthodox aknowledge more sacraments/mysteries than baptism and the eucharist (i.e. chrismation), while Lutherans only accept baptism and the eucharist.

We actually have an "open" definition of sacraments based on three criteria: biblical institution, spoken word, and physical element, and all three together are meant to convey grace.

As a result, yes, most of the time we speak of only baptism the communion. However, the reformers absolutely did not want to make any sort of deal out of it, because the definition is not strictly biblical. Thus both Luther and Melanchthon (Luther's right-hand man) often dropped the third part of the definition and added confession/absolution to the list.

In general, we tend to speak of rites, sacramentals, and mysteries. Because our list is "open," you could very well speak of marriage (for instance) as a mystery and mean what the Orthodox church means by mystery, without using the western terminology of sacrament.It is an encounter with God that conveys grace to a young couple, but because that grace isn't exactly the forgiveness of sins but a different sort of divine activity, we don't really use the term sacrament.

4. Lutherans typically don't physically venerate things. Orthodox do.

Depends on what you mean. Some of us do genuflect, and my wife and I do pray with icons, but no, its not a big part of our tradition.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So Lutherans do not view grace as a "work" or action of God, such that one can say grace has X effect on humans?

I wouldn't say grace is a "thing" either. But I wouldn't say that God smote the firstborn of Egypt through his disposition toward wrath, or that Christ has a mere disposition of love for me. I would say that God smote the firstborn of Egypt by exerting wrath upon it. Christ loves, he does not merely have the disposition.

Just the opposite. We view grace as a work of God, something God does, rather than a thing that God creates and then gives us.

It was Erasmus who discovered that the Greek word χαρις was a verbal noun and should probably be translated "favor" or "favorably disposition" or something like that, and Luther who took up that insight.

This was all in reaction to the scholastic view in which grace is a created thing that simulates the human habitus of right disposition.

 

[Albion]

So much has been written already, but I'd like to offer this:

The simplest way to answer the question is to say that--if we recognize all the nuances and minor variances and understand that they are not "deal breakers" (some of the larger Lutheran bodies in the world ARE in Apostolic Succession, for instance)--the critical difference is this:

Lutherans believe in Scripture Alone, Faith Alone, and Grace Alone. Eastern Orthodox Christians are Catholics in theology (not Roman Catholics of course, but Catholics nonetheless) and so accept the antithesis of each of those points.

One or another of these has gotten into the debate already, I noticed.

 

[Cappadocious]

Just the opposite. We view grace as a work of God, something God does, rather than a thing that God creates and then gives us...

...This was all in reaction to the scholastic view in which grace is a created thing that simulates the human habitus of right disposition.

Well, that seems congruent with the Orthodox view. As you know, we deny that God's actions, grace, etc. are created entities produced to affect humans, as per our Fifth Council of Constantinople (14th Century).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just the opposite. We view grace as a work of God, something God does, rather than a thing that God creates and then gives us.

It was Erasmus who discovered that the Greek word χαρις was a verbal noun and should probably be translated "favor" or "favorably disposition" or something like that, and Luther who took up that insight.

This was all in reaction to the scholastic view in which grace is a created thing that simulates the human habitus of right disposition.

Thanks for this, btw, I wouldn't have appreciated it to that degree.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We speak of "the work of Christ" being all that he accomplished.

Before the work of Christ, humans could not:
1. Escape corruption and death.
2. Be truly righteous (I.E. be truly/fully in communion with God).

That is not to say that nobody ever did what God told them to do, or experienced God; we know that people obeyed God before Christ's earthly works, and had experiences of God; such is mentioned in the Old Testament. But they were unable to overcome the crippling damage done to human existence.


The way that human nature existed changed with the work of Christ.

Thank you - that is interesting. Of course the Holy Spirit was given after Christ ascended. I have had the understanding of what you said, but attributed it to the Holy Spirit - which of course His coming could and probably should be seen as a result of the work of Christ?

I'm sure I'm still missing part of it, since I never (God forgive me) really put Christ's work into that particular equation before, not really. Thank you for connecting those for me. I need to think about it some more.

Orthodox do give last rites. Anointing is unction, but can be given for multiple purposes.

You forgot holy orders. We can also speak of monastic tonsure, etc.

I knew I had to be forgetting some. I haven't looked into it that much yet.

Except the part about Last Rites really does confuse me. Fr. M. was explaining a few weeks ago about this specifically, and I know I have heard from one other priest as well ... what he said was that the Orthodox do not give last rites, because they pray for healing right up until the person's death, so instead of giving last rites, it is an anointing and prayer for healing?

But I know that there are prayers offered immediately (or as soon as possible thereafter or possibly even before?) for the person who is dying.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Kylissa, have you listened to the podcast series Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy on Ancient Faith Radio?

Not yet, but thank you for the recommendation.

I've been listening to AFR but only a couple of series so far, and had not looked at that one yet. There are a few that look as they would address specific questions I have had, but not necessarily gotten around to asking yet.

Thanks very much, I'll add them to my list.

 

[~Anastasia~]

About half of Lutherans worldwide have an episcopal structure. The real different is that Lutherans do not believe an episcopal structure is absolutely necessary in order for a church to be a truly apostolic church.



I think this is the key and crucial difference. Forensic justification by grace alone through faith alone, as applied in the proclaimed word of law and gospel and the administered sacraments of baptism and holy communion.



We actually have an "open" definition of sacraments based on three criteria: biblical institution, spoken word, and physical element, and all three together are meant to convey grace.

As a result, yes, most of the time we speak of only baptism the communion. However, the reformers absolutely did not want to make any sort of deal out of it, because the definition is not strictly biblical. Thus both Luther and Melanchthon (Luther's right-hand man) often dropped the third part of the definition and added confession/absolution to the list.

In general, we tend to speak of rites, sacramentals, and mysteries. Because our list is "open," you could very well speak of marriage (for instance) as a mystery and mean what the Orthodox church means by mystery, without using the western terminology of sacrament.It is an encounter with God that conveys grace to a young couple, but because that grace isn't exactly the forgiveness of sins but a different sort of divine activity, we don't really use the term sacrament.



Depends on what you mean. Some of us do genuflect, and my wife and I do pray with icons, but no, its not a big part of our tradition.

Thanks for expanding and clarifying these. This was very helpful. I am left with an even stronger impression that the nature of man and salvation is one of the major differences between the two.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So much has been written already, but I'd like to offer this:

The simplest way to answer the question is to say that--if we recognize all the nuances and minor variances and understand that they are not "deal breakers" (some of the larger Lutheran bodies in the world ARE in Apostolic Succession, for instance)--the critical difference is this:

Lutherans believe in Scripture Alone, Faith Alone, and Grace Alone. Eastern Orthodox Christians are Catholics in theology (not Roman Catholics of course, but Catholics nonetheless) and so accept the antithesis of each of those points.

One or another of these has gotten into the debate already, I noticed.

Thanks for reminding me of this, Albion.

I don't mean any disrespect to any faith or person, but it does bring a question to my mind.

I of course hear a lot of criticism of "Tradition" and the dividing line between those who claim to practice it and those who claim not to do so seems to run right along with the Solas.

But ... in comparing Lutheran services (and Anglican - not sure where they stand on this?) with Orthodox (and what I remember of Catholic), it seems as though there are shared traditions in the service.

I really hope this isn't insulting to anyone, and I know they are not the same, but they are not as different at all as say a Baptist or Pentecostal service would be.

Not sure what to make of that exactly ...

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, that seems congruent with the Orthodox view. As you know, we deny that God's actions, grace, etc. are created entities produced to affect humans, as per our Fifth Council of Constantinople (14th Century).

I actually think the Orthodox distinction of Essence and Energies is a good one; and to understand that God's Energies are in some sense God Himself. Grace is God Himself acting, specifically God acting to rescue sinners. Grace is God's condescension to meet us where we are, to take hold of us and take us into Himself; the Incarnation, the preaching of the Gospel, the Sacraments, it is God come down, God meeting man where man is to take hold of man and turn man back to God and place man into God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for expanding and clarifying these. This was very helpful. I am left with an even stronger impression that the nature of man and salvation is one of the major differences between the two.

I think the quintessential issue is Lutheran monergism v. Orthodox synergism.

That is, really I think, the major issue. There are other issues, but all the big ones, at their core, stem from that difference.

The Doctrine of Justification, if I'm completely honest, is the reason why I'm Lutheran and not Orthodox.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Cappadocious]

Thank you - that is interesting. Of course the Holy Spirit was given after Christ ascended. I have had the understanding of what you said, but attributed it to the Holy Spirit - which of course His coming could and probably should be seen as a result of the work of Christ?

The sending of the Holy Spirit is through Christ, and it is not for nothing that it follows Christ's earthly ministry. The new life given by Christ is animated by the Holy Spirit, just as the Resurrection body will be animated and characterized by the Holy Spirit, instead of the soulish body of the first adam.

Except the part about Last Rites really does confuse me. Fr. M. was explaining a few weeks ago about this specifically, and I know I have heard from one other priest as well ... what he said was that the Orthodox do not give last rites, because they pray for healing right up until the person's death, so instead of giving last rites, it is an anointing and prayer for healing?

Okay, I see the distinction you're making now. What I meant was that there was unction given to the dying, but I guess it wouldn't be death rites as such.

Not sure what to make of that exactly ...

Lutherans have traditions, too, which represent a reformation of roman catholic traditions according to the Lutheran hermeneutic.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think the quintessential issue is Lutheran monergism v. Orthodox synergism.

That is, really I think, the major issue. There are other issues, but all the big ones, at their core, stem from that difference.

The Doctrine of Justification, if I'm completely honest, is the reason why I'm Lutheran and not Orthodox.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you, ViaCrucis.

I think I see what you mean, that all of the others stem from that one. I've been considering a few of the differences, and it seems I do follow them back to that. Well, I often arrive at the understanding of man's nature as well, but I think that is completely tied in with an understanding of justification (if I can use that word).

It really does seem to be the way of looking at basic things that reflects in the rest of the theologies.

Thank you very much.

 

[Cappadocious]

I believe it's somewhere in St. Athanasius's On the Incarnation of the Word of God, where Athanasius states, as proof of Christ's victory, something which his pagan audience is expected to take for granted. It was the notion that the false gods, or demons, had manifestly less power in his day than they did before Christ's coming, and that this was known throughout the world.

His claim may appear absurd to us today, but it is precisely that sort of notion of an already real, cosmic, universal change that I don't think a salvation theory ought to try to do with out. The Coming Age encroaches with power upon this passing age.

Our paschal message is, "Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb." Anything less than this does not satisfy. Interpreting it as metaphor does not satisfy. Relegating it to mere events between disembodied minds does not satisfy. Only the pure, unqualified reality of that proclamation satisfies.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I actually think the Orthodox distinction of Essence and Energies is a good one; and to understand that God's Energies are in some sense God Himself. Grace is God Himself acting, specifically God acting to rescue sinners. Grace is God's condescension to meet us where we are, to take hold of us and take us into Himself; the Incarnation, the preaching of the Gospel, the Sacraments, it is God come down, God meeting man where man is to take hold of man and turn man back to God and place man into God.

-CryptoLutheran

I think the quintessential issue is Lutheran monergism v. Orthodox synergism.

That is, really I think, the major issue. There are other issues, but all the big ones, at their core, stem from that difference.

The Doctrine of Justification, if I'm completely honest, is the reason why I'm Lutheran and not Orthodox.

-CryptoLutheran