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Why did God create everything in the beginning?

Enginehead

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Why did God create? From the nature of the thread so far, I gather "Well, nothing was there" is not the answer you seek.

You are correct - or at least in lots of good company - about the Christian God not 'needing' to create. God is Infinite and Complete. So He cannot be lonely or bored. Which brings us to 'why this mess?'

The only answer I have ever found is probably not very satisfying to anyone not intimate with God. It is quite simple and almost anti-climatic.

It is God's nature to create.

Much like 'why' God loves (humanity and individuals), and 'why' God is just, honest, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and so on. That is simply His nature.

Told you it's anti-climactic.

A corollary to this is "Since God is Eternal, what did He do in the eternal period of time prior to creating this Universe? Did He make a prior Universe?"

I have no idea. So far, He hasn't seen fit to inform me. Since I regularly forget trash day, I can't really complain too much.

Thanks for your explanation. It's a good answer, actually. Change is the only constant, and since God is good, I suppose it is right that it's his nature to create.

For your last sentence, how would you know? He might inform you at another time.
 
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Enginehead

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God is love.

God created you, and all of creation...To love.


Your purpose here is for God to love you, to bless you, to be your Father.

But He gives you free will, if you do not want to love Him back, then you have made the choice not to spend eternity with Him.

Actually, I think loving Him is simple, but it's people who make loving God seem complicated. Also, without free will, there's no love, because love cannot be forced.
 
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Enginehead

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I believe it's true that God had no need to create. After all, He has been in existence forever and the universe has not. If He didn't need the universe in eternity past why all of a sudden would He need it 13.4 billion years ago?

As for getting a reason why, I suggest you become content with not knowing all the answers. I'm a computer programmer. Do you think my programs ever ask why they were created? Of course that's a silly notion, but I think it's on par with a creature questioning its Creator about why.

Well, it's in my nature to question and seek to know an answer which makes logical sense, which I've figured out and put in an earlier post in the thread.
 
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Enginehead

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And there was me thinking that God was supposed to be the one who created the laws of nature.
So it´s another way of saying "God can´t help it, it´s not within God´s control; God has no choice in that matter, there is a law above God that determines his actions. God can´t act intentionally. (Hence there is no point in asking for his intentions)."?

Not really. We can choose whether to give in to our nature/inclination or to go against it, but God thinks that creating is the right way to go, so He went in with it. Like my previous analogy of the introverted person, he/she can decide to continue being so or to change it.
 
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quatona

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I believe it's true that God had no need to create.
So we have two conflicting notions here:
1. God creates because its his nature (it´s his most basic need to create).
2. God has no need to create.


As for getting a reason why, I suggest you become content with not knowing all the answers.
Oh, rest assured I am very content with that. What, however, makes me suspicious is when certain answers don´t explain what they are promised to explain.
I'm a computer programmer. Do you think my programs ever ask why they were created? Of course that's a silly notion, but I think it's on par with a creature questioning its Creator about why.
Quite obviously it´s not only not on par, it´s actually illustrating the fundamental difference: Your programs don´t and can´t ask this question, while humans can and do.
 
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quatona

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Not really. We can choose whether to give in to our nature/inclination or to go against it, but God thinks that creating is the right way to go, so He went in with it. Like my previous analogy of the introverted person, he/she can decide to continue being or to change it.
Ok, so then "It´s God´s nature to create" is but an evasive and irrelevant answer to the question "What was God´s intention in creating?".
That was my point.
 
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Enginehead

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So we have two conflicting notions here:
1. God creates because its his nature (it´s his most basic need to create).
2. God has no need to create.

Oh, rest assured I am very content with that. What, however, makes me suspicious is when certain answers don´t explain what they are promised to explain.

Quite obviously it´s not only not on par, it´s actually illustrating the fundamental difference: Your programs don´t and can´t ask this question, while humans can and do.

Well, need may not always equate to nature, and vice versa. Like someone can love to eat chocolate, but they can still live without it.

Me too, and that's why I keep probing until I reach a logically-consistent answer.

Good point.
 
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dysert

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Quite obviously it´s not only not on par, it´s actually illustrating the fundamental difference: Your programs don´t and can´t ask this question, while humans can and do.
Well I think it is on par, and I didn't come up with the analogy without help from the Bible:
Isa. 29:16 - Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, "He did not make me"? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

Isa. 64:8 - But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.

Jer. 18:6 - "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!​
 
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Enginehead

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Ok, so then "It´s God´s nature to create" is but an evasive and irrelevant answer to the question "What was God´s intention in creating?".
That was my point.

Ah, I see. My hypothesis is that God wants us to reach a higher level of spirituality. At the moment it makes sense to me:

I got it all figured out. I'm an omnist (I believe in all religions partially), and I believe that every existing religion has got a portion of the truth correct, but not the whole truth yet. When the word is being passed from person-to-person, there is prone to be misunderstanding and misinterpretation during translation, causing us to be divided among ourselves. We're all actually One humanity.

I've come up with this explanation after figuring it out.

I believe that we are all a portion of God (God is within us), and we are assigned a body for our lifetime. Our souls are not capable of sin and evil, but our bodies are because we have needs, wants and feelings, as the result of sustaining biological vehicle. Similarly, Satan and his fallen angel followers (as well as all demons and spirits) have an eternally-living spiritual body, but similarly, when their souls are not capable of evil because they're also a part of God, but their spiritual bodies are, because with a body comes needs, feelings and desires. Once our souls leave our body, we're born again, we become as pure as we have been when we were new-born babies, and hence, God-like. There is no way souls can turn against each other, because we're all One and we know it. It's our minds that come up with perceived boundaries and 'us vs. them' mentality.

It is in the nature of everything, including God, to evolve and change. Therefore, He lets us have an earthly body to go through suffering and face evil, in order to spiritually enhance and to evolve. That was why He created everything and everyone.

We go through reincarnation to learn our lessons in life, and when we've learned our lessons well, all of us return to God in heaven eventually.

As for hell, because God is too pure to see evil, our bodies and corpses need to be thrown into hell to be destroyed, or our souls cannot ascend to Heaven. Also, energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be transformed. As our lives are finite and fragile, we'll be dead and our souls free before our bodies enter the purgatory. As for angels in Heaven, God will probably release them from their bodies easily because they have not sinned despite being capable of doing so. However, for the fallen angels, because of their immortality, they have to be burned in hell to release their souls from their spiritual bodies. They will eventually ascend to Heaven, but their corpses will burn forever in hell. It is not a punishment, take it that God is doing spring-cleaning. An analogy would be when we throw our trash away and burn it in the incinerator, but we're not punishing our trash, just getting rid of them.

When we're all back in Heaven, there will be no more instincts, hierarchy or any human-created status. There will be no more enmity or hate, only love for each other will be left. The lion will lay beside the lamb and even be friends, because the lion has no more needs to hunt and eat the lamb.

This is not an excuse to harm anyone or anything, though, as we and our descendants will still face the consequences of our actions during our lifetime(s) on Earth.

Addition:
Jesus may have died for our sins to pardon us from having to pay the price of our sins: Our lives. Even though God already forgiven all of us for our sins, it does not shield us from facing the consequence of our actions. The law of cause and effect still applies. I take it that God is like a good parent, who will forgive their child quickly, but at the same time, does not shield them from the consequences so that the lesson will be learned.
 
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Enginehead

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Well I think it is on par, and I didn't come up with the analogy without help from the Bible:
Isa. 29:16 - Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, "He did not make me"? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

Isa. 64:8 - But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.

Jer. 18:6 - "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!​

Maybe analogy is not supposed to be taken literally, and I'm not 100% convinced of the Bible's word because it's written by humans, and thus, be subjected to contextual errors and translation mistakes?
 
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quatona

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Well I think it is on par, and I didn't come up with the analogy without help from the Bible:
Isa. 29:16 - Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, "He did not make me"? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

Isa. 64:8 - But now, O LORD, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.

Jer. 18:6 - "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?" says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!​
Yes, sure this is what you had in mind. Doesn´t change the fact, though, that if you create something that can´t speak, think, ask (clay, computer programs) it won´t speak, think, ask.
So if God wanted us to be like clay he would have created us that way. Quite obviously he didn´t.
 
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dysert

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Maybe analogy is not supposed to be taken literally, and I'm not 100% convinced of the Bible's word because it's written by humans, and thus, be subjected to contextual errors and translation mistakes?

Yes, sure this is what you had in mind. Doesn´t change the fact, though, that if you create something that can´t speak, think, ask (clay, computer programs) it won´t speak, think, ask.
So if God wanted us to be like clay he would have created us that way. Quite obviously he didn´t.
The point I'm obviously not good at making is that even though computer programs and clay can't speak, think, or ask, it's an indication of how far above us God is. His ways and thoughts are so different from ours that we can't even comprehend them. And yet we still demand answers from Him as if it's our "right" to know (if indeed it were even possible to know).
 
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woodpecker

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The point I'm obviously not good at making is that even though computer programs and clay can't speak, think, or ask, it's an indication of how far above us God is. His ways and thoughts are so different from ours that we can't even comprehend them. And yet we still demand answers from Him as if it's our "right" to know (if indeed it were even possible to know).

Agreed
 
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quatona

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The point I'm obviously not good at making is that even though computer programs and clay can't speak, think, or ask, it's an indication of how far above us God is. His ways and thoughts are so different from ours that we can't even comprehend them. And yet we still demand answers from Him as if it's our "right" to know (if indeed it were even possible to know).
So, minus the irrelevant analogy and strawman about "rights", your answer is "I don´t know". That´s ok.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Archie said:
It is God's nature to create.

quatona said:
What´s that even supposed to mean?
Did you consult a dictionary? I meant exactly what I wrote.

Enginehead said:
I think he meant to say that it's the law of nature.
No, that is not what he meant.

As Quatona rightly pointed out, God established the laws of nature; therefore, the result of God's work (doings?) did not 'cause' God's doings.

Now, Quatona; since God is a such a unique (in more than one sense of the world) being, there are any numbers of 'characteristics' familiar to humans that simply do not apply to God.

For instance, "Age". Since God has existed forever, there is no meaning to His 'age'.

"Pride". Humans recognize two meanings of 'pride'; one is the positive sense of attempting to keep up a proper appearance, do a proper to excellent job of work and so on. The other meaning is the self aggrandizing pride, which goes along with the phrase 'neener-neener-neener'. Since God is the Ultimate of anything good or positive, 'pride' simply doesn't enter into the discussion.

However, in His nature does suggest that God acts like God. One of the most commonly cited characteristic of God is 'love' (Greek word 'agape'.) Humans are capable of 'love' in various forms, but is an act of will, and limited by human ability. God loves as part of His nature, loves continually and does not let His love over-ride all other concerns.

So it is with 'creating'. God creates.

A side issue here, attempting to clarify. "Force (to do)" is another verb that cannot really be applied to God. No one nor no thing 'forces' God to do anything which is not in His intent. That is, no 'outside' or 'other' entity causes God - against His will - to act in a specific manner.

One can speak of a human 'forcing himself to...' do something. As in, "Archie is forcing himself to not eat chocolate; he has weight to lose". So I am 'forcing' myself to do something other than my will. Additionally, it is due to my 'enhanced' weight dimension.

When God does something in accord with His will, there is nothing outside His will forcing Him to act. God lacks nothing, He is 'Perfect' in that sense of being complete and total. (Also in the sense of having no flaws, but that's another discussion.)

So, while God does create in accordance with who He is, He is not forced to create.

That's like saying, "Because God has been around forever, He is old!" Nonsense! He's eternal; He is just getting started.

The limiting factor and the distortion for humans is we (all) view things through the lens of a limited lifespan and life in general. Which, when considered isn't so strange; we don't really have an adequate view of the Universe from a trout's perspective, either.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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durangodawood said:
Creating everything at the end would have been rather pointless.
I sort of thought of that kind of answer but decided to try to be serious. :clap:

Still, it is irrefutable.
 
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quatona

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Did you consult a dictionary? I meant exactly what I wrote.
No, to be honest, I didn´t consult a dictionary, due to several reasons:
1. My question may have been misunderstandable: I didn´t mean to ask "What are the standard definitions of the word 'nature', but
a. "What is this sequence of words supposed to mean?" (You surely are aware that stringing together meaningful words in a grammatically correct way doesn´t grant the result to be meaningful, intelligible or even only unambiguous.), and
b. "How does this statement even answer the question for God´s intention behind creating?"
2.. I felt I was sufficiently familiar with the definitions of "nature" that are listed in the dictionary, but I couldn´t know which one of them you wished to be applied when interpreting your statement.
3. In my experience, in conversations about the Christian God concept pointing to the dictionary isn´t typically well received. Usually theists go to great length telling me how God is unique etc., and thus our words and concepts do not apply in the same way when used to describe God as they usually do.

But it´s not such a bad idea, anyway, so here we go:
(from dictionary.com)
nature

  Use Nature in a sentence
na·ture

[ney-cher] Show IPA
noun 1. the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.

2. the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization.

3. the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers.

4. natural scenery.

5. the universe, with all its phenomena.

6. the sum total of the forces at work throughout the universe.

7. reality, as distinguished from any effect of art: a portrait true to nature.

8. the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character: human nature.

9. the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct: a man of good nature.

10. character, kind, or sort: two books of the same nature.

11. characteristic disposition; temperament: a self-willed nature; an evil nature.

12. the original, natural, uncivilized condition of humankind.

13. the biological functions or the urges to satisfy their requirements.

14. a primitive, wild condition; an uncultivated state.

15. a simple, uncluttered mode of life without the conveniences or distractions of civilization: a return to nature.

16. ( initial capital letter, italics ) a prose work (1836), by Ralph Waldo Emerson, expounding transcendentalism.

17. Theology . the moral state as unaffected by grace.

So, with 17 - wildly different - definitions of the word "nature" it seems to be quite appropriate and charitable to ask "Which one are you working from in your statement?" (actually, you could have been expected to do that yourself, upfront), and obviously "I meant exactly what I said" is not helping.


So, what definition are you working from, for purposes of your statement?





Now, Quatona; since God is a such a unique (in more than one sense of the world) being, there are any numbers of 'characteristics' familiar to humans that simply do not apply to God.
Like, err, "nature", for instance? :p

For instance, "Age". Since God has existed forever, there is no meaning to His 'age'.

"Pride". Humans recognize two meanings of 'pride'; one is the positive sense of attempting to keep up a proper appearance, do a proper to excellent job of work and so on. The other meaning is the self aggrandizing pride, which goes along with the phrase 'neener-neener-neener'. Since God is the Ultimate of anything good or positive, 'pride' simply doesn't enter into the discussion.
But "nature" did, and you were the one introducing it.

However, in His nature does suggest that God acts like God.
Yeah, that´s beautifully tautological - but doesn´t answer anything.
One of the most commonly cited characteristic of God is 'love' (Greek word 'agape'.) Humans are capable of 'love' in various forms, but is an act of will, and limited by human ability. God loves as part of His nature, loves continually and does not let His love over-ride all other concerns.

So it is with 'creating'. God creates.
Yeah, I think that was the accepted premise of the question "Why did God create?". It´s not an answer, though.

A side issue here, attempting to clarify. "Force (to do)" is another verb that cannot really be applied to God. No one nor no thing 'forces' God to do anything which is not in His intent. That is, no 'outside' or 'other' entity causes God - against His will - to act in a specific manner.

One can speak of a human 'forcing himself to...' do something. As in, "Archie is forcing himself to not eat chocolate; he has weight to lose". So I am 'forcing' myself to do something other than my will. Additionally, it is due to my 'enhanced' weight dimension.

When God does something in accord with His will, there is nothing outside His will forcing Him to act. God lacks nothing, He is 'Perfect' in that sense of being complete and total. (Also in the sense of having no flaws, but that's another discussion.)

So, while God does create in accordance with who He is, He is not forced to create.
Yes, I agree: A completely irrelevant side issue. Nobody said that God was "forced".
The actual question is: Does God have two or several options (in which case the question "What is his intention...?" isn´t answered by "It´s his nature."), or does He not and instead is but doing what He can´t help doing (in which case the question for God´s intention is moot, simply because God doesn´t have a choice - "choice" being a human concept not applicable to a God).



That's like saying, "Because God has been around forever, He is old!" Nonsense! He's eternal; He is just getting started.
"Getting started" is also a nonsense-statement about a supposedly eternal being. It seems to me that you yourself are - in your use of language - permanently switching between the human perspective and the supposed perspective of your eternal God.

After all, even "God created" (passive tense, signifying an event, etc.) is nonsense from an eternal perspective.


The limiting factor and the distortion for humans is we (all) view things through the lens of a limited lifespan and life in general. Which, when considered isn't so strange; we don't really have an adequate view of the Universe from a trout's perspective, either.
Right. It just gets weird when people start pretending to speak from a perspective that they can´t have. It even gets weirder when - in doing that - they point to human definitions of human words in human dictionaries, just to - in the next step - fall back into pointing out how irrelevant human constructs are in these questions.
 
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