False Converts

[Steeno7]

What about where it says to make your calling and election sure?

Same as, work out our own salvation; work out what God is working in.

Or to remove the plank out of your own eye before worrying about the speck in your brother's eye? Shouldn't there be some sort of fruit inspection

Nope. That plank in your eye never goes away completely. God alone is qualified to judge another's heart.

 

[Hammster]

Same as, work out our own salvation; work out what God is working in.



Nope. That plank in your eye never goes away completely. God alone is qualified to judge another's heart.

Where do you see it saying that the plank never goes away. Was Jesus giving a bad command?

 

[Steeno7]

Where do you see it saying that the plank never goes away. Was Jesus giving a bad command?

No, He was saying don't do it. Don't be looking for the speck in another's eye...as the legalists of His day were so fond of doing.

 

[Hammster]

No, He was saying don't do it. Don't be looking for the speck in another's eye...as the legalists of His day were so fond of doing.

Actually, He was saying to not judge hypocritically.

 

[sdowney717]

No, He was saying don't do it. Don't be looking for the speck in another's eye...as the legalists of His day were so fond of doing.

Well, pull out the plank in your own eye, to see clearly the speck in your brother's eye.
Not that we are never to see the speck in our brother's eye, there is a qualification to what Jesus said.

4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Are we guilty of the same or even worse offenses as that brother which we see sinning in some way?

Romans 2 talks of these things.
Paul directly speaking to the Jews says this. It has application to gentles also.

Such people would be hypocrites.

21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?

 

[Steeno7]

Actually, He was saying to not judge hypocritically.

Do you think you can do that?

 

[Hammster]

Do you think you can do that?

Yes. If I don't have a problem with pornography, and I find out a brother does, not only can I confront him, I should, if I love him.

 

[Skala]

Do you think you can do that?

Yes. Jesus told us to judge with righteous judgement.

To "judge" something is to make discernment about something. For example, I judge rape as wrong. I have just judged. Did I judge correctly?

To know whether or not I judged correctly, I have to have a standard by which to measure things by. That standard is the Bible, no?

Therefore, I can judge things against God's standards. This is how the Christian is to operate and live in the world. And how to discern (make judgement) what is "worldly" so that I might stay away from it, as commanded.

In short, it's impossible for a person to never judge during his life.

 

[Steeno7]

Yes. If I don't have a problem with pornography, and I find out a brother does, not only can I confront him, I should, if I love him.

The OP, your OP, is about false converts, ones who are not saved. Can you judge who they are? Can you look into anothers heart and determine if they are converts or not?

 

[Hammster]

The OP, your OP, is about false converts, ones who are not saved. Can you judge who they are? Can you look into anothers heart and determine if they are converts or not?

I can definitely judge whether they are bearing fruit. If they aren't, but profess to be saved, then we need to talk.

 

[Steeno7]

I can definitely judge whether they are bearing fruit. If they aren't, but profess to be saved, then we need to talk.

People fake good fruit all the time. But I have never seen anyone fake bad fruit. Because the one is true does not make the inverse true also.

 

[Hammster]

People fake good fruit all the time. But I have never seen anyone fake bad fruit. Because the one is true does not make the inverse true also.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

 

[Steeno7]

I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

If we see bad fruit from someone who claims to be a prophet we can readily discern that they are false prophets. It is grounds for disqualification as a prophet. But the inverse is not true. People are very good at faking good fruit. They learn how to walk the walk and talk the talk. You cannot say, that person is exhibiting fruit of the Spirit therefore they are a prophet.

You want to use that same formula for determining whether a person is converted or not. But it doesn't fly. Those who are converted will still exhibit bad fruit, so that is not a legitimate means of determining their spiritual status. So, how do you do it?

 

[Lollerskates]

Perhaps the root is discernment vs. judgment. Discerning bad fruits, and discerning intentions should always be done with finesse (as to not PREjudge). But, I word say only maybe 3 or 4 people were actually worthy enough to judge their fellow man: Christ of course, Enoch, maybe Moses and maybe Elijah. You can probably add John the Baptist in there too. Their righteousness make ours today look like manure, comparatively.

 

[Hammster]

If we see bad fruit from someone who claims to be a prophet we can readily discern that they are false prophets. It is grounds for disqualification as a prophet. But the inverse is not true. People are very good at faking good fruit. They learn how to walk the walk and talk the talk. You cannot say, that person is exhibiting fruit of the Spirit therefore they are a prophet.

You want to use that same formula for determining whether a person is converted or not. But it doesn't fly. Those who are converted will still exhibit bad fruit, so that is not a legitimate means of determining their spiritual status. So, how do you do it?

I'm not looking for a formula. The gist of my thread is to discuss whether or not there are false converts, the ones who walk the walk and talk the talk, but aren't saved. Do they exist? And does scripture talk about them, or describe them?

 

[Steeno7]

I'm not looking for a formula. The gist of my thread is to discuss whether or not there are false converts, the ones who walk the walk and talk the talk, but aren't saved. Do they exist? And does scripture talk about them, or describe them?

LOL. Yep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So they have a said faith, but not a real faith, correct?

Are you just trying to be difficult here?

Dod you or do you not understand the issue between a liar who CLAIMS to be a Christian and a believer who has actually believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life?

Or, let me ask you this: can a person who believes (not just says they have believed) in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life not really be saved?

If the answer is yes, please explain how this can be so.

Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

Are you just trying to be difficult here?

Dod you or do you not understand the issue between a liar who CLAIMS to be a Christian and a believer who has actually believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life?

Or, let me ask you this: can a person who believes (not just says they have believed) in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life not really be saved?

If the answer is yes, please explain how this can be so.

Thanks.

Not trying to be difficult. Just asking a question. Are you going to answer it?

 

[AndOne]

Do you think it's possible to be saved and yet show no signs of growth?

Tough question brother. In reading James 2 I would have to honestly say no - but what level of growth a believer exhibits is subjective IMHO. In other words some are going to exhibit more spiritual upward mobility than others. The bottom line for me - is there has to be growth or the person may very well not be saved. It's why many in church still need to be evangelized - as Johnny Mac likes to say...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not trying to be difficult. Just asking a question. Are you going to answer it?

I was clear, but I'll repeat myself. There are those who think they are Christians or saved, but do not have saving faith. There are also those who lie and claim to be a Christian, for some personal gain in lying.

Then there are those who have placed their full faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for eternal life. These have saving faith and are saved.