Sabbatarianism and the 1689 Confession: Were the Particular Baptists wrong?

[LarryP2]

But of course since your prophet acted in such ways why should we expect you a devotee to be any different.

Note the deft dodge, avoiding answering both yours and my posts regarding his REAL source, Ellen G. White? Notice I added the following to my spam post: "The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandments that they deceitfully use the following sources instead."


I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

 

[Keachian]

Your own BCF source admits that from Eden to the cross the 4th commandment, the Sabbath - was on the 7th day of the week. Even you can't deny this obvious point.

Your own BCF source admits that they "CHANGE" it from the cross onward so that the still-binding 4th commandment, the SABBATH is now applied to week-day-1 instead of the "Seventh Day" as stated in the actual commandment. Here again you cannot deny the point.

Thus if your "nit" is that you want the word "Change" and not "BEND" - be my guest.




Indeed you do.

And I call that a bending of the law of God in true Mark 7:6-13 fashion.


You can hardly ask for a more clean, clear direct opposition to a point.

in Christ,

Bob

7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

is very different to:

7. At the Cross of Christ and his Resurrection God changed the day of Sabbath observance from the Seventh Day to the First Day.

One is a strawman, the other is an accurate representation of the belief of Sunday-Sabbatarians you disagree with both statements, but it is hardly called for to treat one as the other. This is not a nitpick you are saying that Sunday-Sabbatarianism is man-made in your representation of Sunday-Sabbatarianism even though no Sunday-Sabbatarian would ever say that it is a strawman, a logical fallacy where you misrepresent the position of your opponent in order to knock their position down.

 

[Keachian]

Note the deft dodge, avoiding answering both yours and my posts regarding his REAL source, Ellen G. White? Notice I added the following to my spam post: "The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandments that they deceitfully use the following sources instead."

Of course they do, Bob esp. considering he wants to use Martin as a justification for his orthodoxy, he can't have both White and Martin so he downplays White so he can try to claim Martin.

 

[BobRyan]

It is completely disingenuous to represent your seventh point in the way that you have represented it because that is not what we believe.

Your own BCF source admits that from Eden to the cross the 4th commandment, the Sabbath - was on the 7th day of the week. Even you can't deny this obvious point.

Your own BCF source admits that they "CHANGE" it from the cross onward so that the still-binding 4th commandment, the SABBATH is now applied to week-day-1 instead of the "Seventh Day" as stated in the actual commandment. Here again you cannot deny the point.

Thus if your "nit" is that you want the word "Change" and not "BEND" - be my guest.

we believe that it is God's change to the Sabbath command

Indeed you do.

And I call that a bending of the law of God in true Mark 7:6-13 fashion.


You can hardly ask for a more clean, clear direct opposition to a point.

Your own post has undercut every complaint the "all at war with God's TEN Commandments" group has had about the 7th point.

7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

is very different to:

7. At the Cross of Christ and his Resurrection God changed the day of Sabbath observance from the Seventh Day to the First Day.

One is a strawman, the other is an accurate representation of the belief

One is a complaint about point 7.

The other is trying to find a way to state point 7 without stating the objection to it.

BOTH admit that the BCF is trying to change the 4th commandment at the cross so that instead of pointing to the Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 "seventh day" the Sabbath commandment would then point to "week day 1" from the cross onward.

There is no NT claim that God ever did such a thing -- so no text showing the term "Sabbath" in the NT to be a reference to "week day 1".

No not in Acts 13 "Sabbath after Sabbath" with Gospel preaching and no reference to Sabbath as meaning "week day 1".

No not in Acts 17 "Sabbath after Sabbath" with Gospel preaching and no reference to Sabbath as meaning "week day 1".

No not in Acts 18 "Sabbath after Sabbath" with Gospel preaching and no reference to Sabbath as meaning "week day 1".

No Sunday-after Sunday services of any kind in the NT.

This is not a nitpick you are saying that Sunday-Sabbatarianism is man-made in your representation of Sunday-Sabbatarianism even though no Sunday-Sabbatarian would ever say that

That is the nature of "objection". They claim God told the NT church to do it.

The objection is of the form "oh no He did not - rather the effort was made AFTER the First century and OUTSIDE of scripture to insert this doctrinal error". (Even the RCC itself will admit to at least part of this argument)

a logical fallacy where you misrepresent the position of your opponent in order to knock their position down.

I never claim THEY say "we are in doctrinal error. We had no reason at all for doing what we did - we are simply in error" -- or any such thing.

I think we both knew that all along.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

ALL of his "Sunday Keeping" sources agree: Christians keep the 4th Commandment by worshiping on Sunday. .

Which I addressed in post ... #2 of this thread. So when you "circle back" to the question answered in post - #2 - you are in fact asking that we take a look at that answer -- once again. Click it.

Next.

The other thing that is "instructive" for those at war with God's Ten Commandments is that these sources affirm the continued binding nature of God's Ten Commandments for the saints today.

As noted in the the post below directed to ProgMonk.

=========================================

Does the Confession state that the Believer need do the Law? I wouldn't say that that is the doctrine expressed.

Can you say that while actually quoting the document in the section dealing with the Christian keeping the Law??

The Actual BCF -- (or is it the "much to be avoided BCF" Progmonk??)

====================================
[FONT=&quot]As modified by C.H. Spurgeon[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Section 19[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]. The Law of God [/FONT]

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

• The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

• Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

• The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

===================================

or was that just a gimmick on your part?

Recall that you are the one that asked us to look at this.

How sad that I alone am quoting this section, highlighting it, underlining it, defending it. I don't think that C.H. Spurgeon himself would have left this to someone else to defend.

 

[LarryP2]

Of course they do, Bob esp. considering he wants to use Martin as a justification for his orthodoxy, he can't have both White and Martin so he downplays White so he can try to claim Martin.

On the other hand, his founding prophet is so completely discredited as a true conscienceless sociopath; that deceitfully using sources that directly oppose his position is probably his best bet. And did you notice his complete lack of response when I demonstrated the utter falsity of his entire presentation by showing his Church's true position on Sinless perfection, Salvation by perfect Sabbath keeping, and Salvation demands Vegetarianism?

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

 

[BobRyan]

CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

You quote Catholic sources? They sure do love those SEVEN points from post #2

Wonderful! Me too!

===========================================

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29


(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.




Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.






The two views state their positions as “The Catholic church fully endorses the Sabbath commandment as edited by the Catholic Church" vs "the Catholic church fully endorsed the Sabbath commandment as worded by God at Sinai"
.

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".


page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"



====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

[FONT=&quot]====================end quote[/FONT]

 

[from scratch]

Note the deft dodge, avoiding answering both yours and my posts regarding his REAL source, Ellen G. White? Notice I added the following to my spam post: "The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandments that they deceitfully use the following sources instead."


I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

Very interesting point.

 

[from scratch]

Of course they do, Bob esp. considering he wants to use Martin as a justification for his orthodoxy, he can't have both White and Martin so he downplays White so he can try to claim Martin.

For the life of me I can't figure out why he'd try to use Martin for support. Has anyone besides me read him?

 

[from scratch]

How sad that I alone am quoting this section, highlighting it, underlining it, defending it. I don't think that C.H. Spurgeon himself would have left this to someone else to defend.

Ah, new deflection since the others haven't worked some magic.

My first reader should have read Run Bob. See Bob run. Run Bob. I think I remember them using Jack. I forgot who the girl was.

 

[Keachian]

For the life of me I can't figure out why he'd try to use Martin for support. Has anyone besides me read him?

I have read Martin on Adventism from KotC, I disagree with his position in the book that one can be an Adventist and a Christian, because I believe as soon as you start to theologically, and properly downsize EGWs influence on Adventist theology you cease to be Adventist, unfortunately for Bob, he's smokescreening his reliance on EGW which is evident.

 

[BobRyan]

I have read Martin on Adventism from KotC,.

Wonderful - have you read the BCF and the 7 point list?

(I.E the topic of your own thread)??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Keachian]

Wonderful - have you read the BCF and the 7 point list?

(I.E the topic of your own thread)??

in Christ,

Bob

You're still strawmanning and misrepresenting the BCF, what's your point?

 

[BobRyan]

It is completely disingenuous to represent your seventh point in the way that you have represented it because that is not what we believe.

Your own BCF source admits that from Eden to the cross the 4th commandment, the Sabbath - was on the 7th day of the week. Even you can't deny this obvious point.

Your own BCF source admits that they "CHANGE" it from the cross onward so that the still-binding 4th commandment, the SABBATH is now applied to week-day-1 instead of the "Seventh Day" as stated in the actual commandment. Here again you cannot deny the point.

Thus if your "nit" is that you want the word "Change" and not "BEND" - be my guest.

we believe that it is God's change to the Sabbath command

Indeed you do.

And I call that a bending of the law of God in true Mark 7:6-13 fashion.


You can hardly ask for a more clean, clear direct opposition to a point.

Your own post has undercut every complaint the "all at war with God's TEN Commandments" group has had about the 7th point.

7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

is very different to:

7. At the Cross of Christ and his Resurrection God changed the day of Sabbath observance from the Seventh Day to the First Day.

One is a strawman, the other is an accurate representation of the belief

One is a complaint about point 7.

The other is trying to find a way to state point 7 without stating the objection to it.

BOTH admit that the BCF is trying to change the 4th commandment at the cross so that instead of pointing to the Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 "seventh day" the Sabbath commandment would then point to "week day 1" from the cross onward.

There is no NT claim that God ever did such a thing -- so no text showing the term "Sabbath" in the NT to be a reference to "week day 1".

No not in Acts 13 "Sabbath after Sabbath" with Gospel preaching and no reference to Sabbath as meaning "week day 1".

No not in Acts 17 "Sabbath after Sabbath" with Gospel preaching and no reference to Sabbath as meaning "week day 1".

No not in Acts 18 "Sabbath after Sabbath" with Gospel preaching and no reference to Sabbath as meaning "week day 1".

No Sunday-after Sunday services of any kind in the NT.

This is not a nitpick you are saying that Sunday-Sabbatarianism is man-made in your representation of Sunday-Sabbatarianism even though no Sunday-Sabbatarian would ever say that

That is the nature of "objection". They claim God told the NT church to do it.

The objection is of the form "oh no He did not - rather the effort was made AFTER the First century and OUTSIDE of scripture to insert this doctrinal error". (Even the RCC itself will admit to at least part of this argument)

a logical fallacy where you misrepresent the position of your opponent in order to knock their position down.

I never claim THEY say "we are in doctrinal error. We had no reason at all for doing what we did - we are simply in error" -- or any such thing.

I think we both knew that all along.

===================================

And now the much touted nonsensical method of response to the points raised on the topic of your own thread??

...as you start to theologically, and properly downsize EGWs influence ....

Apparently "Ellen White" is the solution to every problem you run into on the subject of the BCF!

How "odd".

 

[BobRyan]

So the points of agreement remain

For the sake of "full disclosure" and context - I think we need to list all the details related to this subject from the BCF.

[FONT=&quot]1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross[FONT=&quot].


I don't claim to agree with all 7 of the points that the BCF is making - only 6 out of the 7 do I agree with.

But there are many on this board who are at war with all 7.[/FONT][/FONT]

Even the RCC can be found making these 7 points -- #167

 

[Keachian]

Apparently "Ellen White" is the solution to every problem you run into on the subject of the BCF!

How "odd".

Well taking off your EGW colored glasses while you read theological treatises might.

 

[BobRyan]

I have read Martin on Adventism from KotC,.

Wonderful - have you read the BCF and the 7 point list?

(I.E the topic of your own thread)??

You're still strawmanning and misrepresenting the BCF, what's your point?

My point is that answering the post showing the issue with the BCF regarding the use of "Sabbath" in the NT as mythically supposedly applied to week-day-1 is lacking from the "Actual Bible" as already posted #164 so it is no surprise that you run from that post choosing in stead to talk about "Adventism" and "Walter Martin" and "Ellen White" as if this will help the case for the BCF.

Well taking off your EGW colored ....

I think C.H. Spurgeon would have been more forthcoming on an actual Bible defense for the document -- he could not appeal to "Adventists" as if this would solve all of the issues with actual Bible details.

My guess is - we both knew that all along.

In this post #164 we find no appeal to Adventist sources - rather the Bible itself debunks your statements on point 7 -- and all you have in response is "Well Ellen White... well Ellen White"??? Those at war with God's TEN Commandments try that same stunt each time they are confronted with the 7 point list that is the argument of so many pro-Sunday sources -- because obviously they like you have no response.

Apparently you are stuck.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Keachian]

My point is that answering the post showing the issue with the BCF regarding the use of "Sabbath" in the NT as mythically supposedly applied to week-day-1 is lacking from the "Actual Bible" as already posted #164 so it is no surprise that you run from that post choosing in stead to talk about "Adventism" and "Walter Martin" and "Ellen White" as if this will help the case for the BCF.

You have SDA presuppositions that come from your prophet, I have presented a case , you rejected it basically on the basis that your prophet disagrees with how the Church has understood the phrase "The Lord's Day" historically.

I think C.H. Spurgeon would have been more forthcoming on an actual Bible defense for the document -- he could not appeal to "Adventists" as if this would solve all of the issues with actual Bible details.

Well I gave you a Scriptural defense you rejected it because your prophet said so. How can I argue with someone who has a Norming Norm that isn't Scripture?

 

[BobRyan]

In this post #164 we find no appeal to Adventist sources - rather the Bible itself debunks your statements on point 7

You have SDA presuppositions

You are avoiding all the Bible facts in that post and clinging only to mantra.

Why not appeal to an actual fact related to the challenge to your point 7??

You and I BOTH know that those here who are at war with God's Ten Commandments will also agree that the term "Sabbath" as used in the Bible in the NT in that post - all refer to the seventh day of the week and not week-day 1. This is not because they all "read Ellen White" even though you have sought to "imagine for us" that Ellen White is to blame for all the problems of the BCF when it comes to point 7.

I have made no appeal at all to anything said by Ellen White -- between the two of us -- only YOU do that because you need to escape the Bible points listed.

I think we both know that to be true.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

I have read Martin on Adventism from KotC, I disagree with his position in the book that one can be an Adventist and a Christian, because I believe as soon as you start to theologically, and properly downsize EGWs influence on Adventist theology you cease to be Adventist, unfortunately for Bob, he's smokescreening his reliance on EGW which is evident.

Walter Martin was conned big time in an extremely well-choreographed and organized wave of deception. Adventism temporarily pulled out the stops to avoid the "cult" label, which would have been devastating. It even published a extraordinarily deceptive book to snow Martin called "Questions on Doctrine." which was temporarily in print, to get Martin off their back. Martin was constantly pressing them for obvious abandonment of the Book aftr its deceitful purpose was accomplished.

That's why when Bob deceptively insists on their "Fundamental Beliefs," it is a skillful and deceitful diversionary tactic. The FB in no way honestly reflect what their REAL beliefs are. That's why when I posted the bizarre and insane Ellen White quote, where she literally making the Ten Commandments into God, he deceptively doesn't answer or respond. That's the reason every single post of his is about the Ten Commandments: There simply is NOTHING even close to the importance of them. The Ten Commandments FAR FAR outstrip Jesus Christ, the Cross and the Resurrection in importance. Jesus is basically Satan's brother, and they are equally powerful and equally important. For over 100 years after the founding of the cult, outright heretical Arianism was taught. That has been replaced by a deceptive "Tri-theism" that grudgingly recognizes the Divinity of Christ without taking too much focus off of the Ten Commandments.

THAT'S the deceitful reason for the mono-focus on the Sabbath. Virtually NOTHING was accomplished on the Cross and with the Resurrection. THAT'S why little kids are discouraged from even having a few jelly beans on Easter. Jesus's primary purpose on earth was to restore the Sabbath, after it had been "corrupted" by rules and regulations and "man-made" interpretations. ANYTHING that points out that Christians from virtually the first Sunday after the Resurrection changed their Day of Worship is deceitfully ignored or dishonestly downplayed. Jesus's crucifixion is something we are to emulate with perfect Sabbath Keeping and vegetarianism. Adventism in reality is the slow drip of Chinese water torture, a slow death by a thousand cuts. It is very very depressing.

Why this is allowed on a Christian web site just baffles me. Plainly, the Apostles pulled out the stops to condemn both the First Century Judaizing heresy, and the Second century Ebionite heresy, which are both virtually identical to Adventism.

I am glad the following authorities stand for precisely the OPPOSITE of what is deceitfully-misrepresented by the Sabbath Spam Posters. All of these authorities actually RENOUNCE 7th Day Sabbath Keeping and support the Christian view that has been condemning the Ebionite and Judaizing heresies for the last 2,000 years. The Sabbath spammers are so embarrassed and humiliated by their own "Prophet" and her unbiblical "vision" about the 4th Commandment that they deceitfully use the following sources instead. The following sources would be horrified and outraged to know that they were being used in such a deceptive manner:

Baptist Confession of Faith
"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Westminster Confession of Faith
"As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
Westminster Confession of Faith

DWIGHT MOODY

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday....."
....
"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."
.....
"A Christian man was once urged by his employer to work on Sunday. "Does not your Bible say that if your ass falls into a pit on the Sabbath you may pull him out?"

"If working men got up a strike for no work on Sunday, they would have the sympathy of a good many."
How Shall We Spend the Sabbath? by Dwight L. Moody

R.C Sproul

"And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week — the Lord’s Day.

MATHEW HENRY

"The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian Sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice."
The Sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday?

THOMAS WATSON

"Our Christian Sabbath comes in the room of the Jewish Sabbath: it is called the Lord's day, Rev. i.10. from Christ the author of it. Our Sabbath is altered by Christ's own appointment. He arose this day out of the grave, and appeared on it often to His disciples, 1 Cor. xvi. 1: to intimate to them (saith Athanasius) that he transferred the Sabbath to the Lord's day. And St. Austin saith that by Christ's rising on the first day of the week, it was consecrated to be the Christian Sabbath, in remembrance of his resurrection.

The Christian Soldier by Thomas Watson - Part 6 - by sanctifying the Lord' Day and holy conversation


CATHOLIC CATECHISM
2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior.
Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist