A Pondering of the Peculiar (4)

[Subduction Zone]

I like dishonest people, too. Honest I do.

Let's edit this.

Let's try not to insult each other and discuss the topic at hand.

I know it is a tactic that many creationists like to use here because an atheist is more likely to be sanctioned than a creationist. So let's keep it where the rules favor atheists. Let's keep this debate based on logic and evidence.

 

[GenemZ]

Yes, I have. I did it twice now.

Go back and look. You did not make a comment that indicated to me that you agreed with me.

My pastor (who was a historian and a Greek and Hebrew scholar) agreed with your assessment about Nebuchadnezzar... But, you are failing to connect all the dots. The following was taken from notes:


{Nebuchadnezzar Siege that failed}
7 For thus said the Lord/'Adonay God/Jehovah,
"Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus/Tyre
Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon,
a king of kings,
from the north,
with horses,
and with chariots,
and with horsemen,
and companies,
and much people."
26:8~~He
{prophecy of Alexander the Great}
shall slay with the sword your daughters in the field
and he shall make a fort against you
{Alexander built a half mile long 'rock bridge' to the Island of Tyre
and fortified the mole as he went along},
and cast a mount against you
{the fortified bridge was the way he could attack the Island
fortifications},
and lift up shields against you
{to protect their heads from rocks dropped from the walls of Tyre}.
{Note: See also Zechariah 9 for more on the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre by Alexander the Great.}
9~~And he shall set engines of war against your walls
{Alexander invented catapults that could throw a 200 lb rock
a half mile at and over the walls},
and with his axes he shall break down your towers
{literally happened}.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We'll see

There is no "We'll see", Nebby is dead. People still know where Tyre is.

 

[GenemZ]

Now... some more notes from my pastor's message. This time about the cited Zechariah 9.

{Verses 1-8: God Raised Up Alexander the Great to Crush Anti-Semitism in His Day}

{Verses 1: Judgement of the Syrian Cities}
1~~The 'crushing weight {of Judgment}' {massa'} of the Word/'doctrinal communication' {dabar} of Jehovah/God in the land of Hadrach {anti-Semitic Northern Syria - the Syria of Today},and Damascus
{referring to the even more anti-Semitic Southern Syria} {will be} its {the crushing weight of judgment's} resting place; for Jehovah/God's eyes are upon man and the tribes of Israel {explanation of why Hadrach and Damascus will be whipped out - the "tribes of Israel" refers back to the fact that God keeps His word - any anti-Semitism is prohibited by Him always}.

{Note: Syria was divided into two or three states. The northern state was the land of Hadrach (they call it Syria now), and the southern state was Damascus. It was wiped out by Alexander the Great right after the battle of Isis.}

{Verses 2-4: The Judgement of the Phoenician Cities}

2~~And Hamath which borders thereon {another anti-Semitic smaller state next to Syria}. Tyrus, and Zidon/Sidon, though it be very prosperous {chakam - normally means 'wise' but here is not so much knowledge as it is prosperous in wealth and 'iron technology'}.

{Note: Zidon/Sidon is on the land and is vulnerable despite mountains around it. But, half a mile offshore is an island called Tyre. This island has two sets of walls one hundred and fifty feet high going completely around it. It owned a navy of 350 ships, the largest and strongest navy in the world at the time. Alexander took Zidon/Sidon and then faced the problem of the island state of Tyre.}


3~~And Tyrus/Tyre did build herself a strong hold {considered to be the impregnable city of the ancient world}, and heaped up silver as the dust {so wealthy the streets were said to be 'lined in gold'}, and fine gold as the mire of the streets {idiom meaning they are fantastically wealthy see also Ezekiel 26:8 and following also}.

4~~Behold the 'Adonay/Lord will cast her out, and he will smite her power in the sea and she shall be devoured with fire. {Note: Alexander the Great built a half mile 'mole' out to the island to defeat the Tyre fortifications. It was quite a costly and hardly believable project. After he captured the city, he burned it to the ground. The prophecy was written in 518 BC and literally fulfilled in 332 BC.}

{Note: Next in verses 5-7 is the judgment of the Greeks for Anti-Semitism. The Philistines are Greeks. Notice that there are four city states left to the Philistines at the time of fulfillment. In 332 BC we have Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and Ashdod. One is missing: the hometown of Goliath - Gath. Gath was destroyed by king Aziah.}

5~~Ashkelon shall see it {the fall of Tyre} and fear {when Alexander arrived at Ashkelon they threw open the gates and surrendered. So Alexander simply put an administration in there and left them alone}. Gaza also shall see it {destruction of Tyre} and 'writhe with extreme/maximum pain' {this was fulfilled when Batis a young Greek and the king of Gaza, refused to surrender to Alexander the Great.

When he saw what had been happening in Tyre he refortified his city and hired some mercenaries plus his own Greek troops. And they manned the walls so well that Alexander couldn't get anywhere. Batis admired the Persians and he was very loyal to Darius. He wouldn't surrender and it took Alexander quite awhile but he sent his engineers to the wall and finally built a ramp up the wall. Eventually they went over the wall into the city and by this time they were so angry with the resistance that this was one of the few times that Alexander showed no quarter/mercy} and Ekron, for her expectation {of deliverance}, shall be ashamed {instead of deliverance, the people of Ekron were enslaved}; and the king shall perish from Gaza {when Alexander finally caught King Batis he was so angry by this time that he had a hole cut in each one of his feet. A rope was put through the holes and alive he was dragged through the streets of the city until he was dead. So nearly 200 years before, Zechariah by God the Holy Spirit says: "Gaza shall writhe in pain" and "the king shall perish"} and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited {Why? Because eventually Alexander eventually took the people out of there and gave them a new home. He didn't want the Philistines in that area any longer}. 6~~And a b_stard/'group of foreign people' {mamzer} shall dwell in Ashdod {referring to Alexander's men he left to dwell and control the Ashdod area}, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines {these famous Greek people were wiped out except for believers - see verse 7}.

{Note: This actually means a group of foreign people. Alexander wanted to keep one of the four cities for a fortification and to always keep the door open to Egypt, so he took the people of Ashdod and moved them out of there and he put in some of his own troops.}

7~~And I will take away his blood out of his mouth and his abominations from between his teeth {the Philistines as Greeks offered human sacrifice}. But he who remains, even he, shall turn to our 'Elohiym/Godhead {idiom meaning the survivors became believers}, and he {the surviving Philistines}
shall be like a governor in Judah {referring to Zerubbabel a strong bible centered believers}, and Ekron as a Jebusite {When David conquered Jerusalem the Jebusites were there and they were tough and rugged - only David and his tough army could conquer them - on top of Zion -the only Jebusites who survived with believers}.
8~~And I {God} will encamp about my house {Jerusalem} because of the army {Alexander's army},
because of him who passes by {on his way to Egypt}, and because of him who returns {Alexander returned by Jerusalem on his way to conquer Darius} and no oppressor shall pass through them any more
{until the death of Alexander anyone who was hostile to the Jews Alexander wiped out all anti-Semitics}
for now have I seen with my eyes {dual fulfillment again - Zechariah's day and at the 2nd Advent}.

{Note: Alexander the Great could easily have destroyed Jerusalem. But in a 'vision' he saw what he believed was the God of the Jews. He came to Jerusalem, spared the city, and even asked Jews to volunteer to go with him and administer new cities he founded all the way to India. In this way, the Jews were spread all over the area - and the Word went with them.}​

 

[Subduction Zone]

My pastor (who was a historian and a Greek and Hebrew scholar) agreed with your assessment about Nebuchadnezzar... But, you are failing to connect all the dots. The following was taken from notes:


{Nebuchadnezzar Siege that failed}
7 For thus said the Lord/'Adonay God/Jehovah,
"Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus/Tyre
Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon,
a king of kings,

Of course he would disagree with me. He has a horribly tainted perspective. But as you see Nebby was the "king of kings" that means he was he head of "many nations".

from the north,
with horses,
and with chariots,
and with horsemen,
and companies,
and much people."
26:8~~He
{prophecy of Alexander the Great}
shall slay with the sword your daughters in the field
and he shall make a fort against you
{Alexander built a half mile long 'rock bridge' to the Island of Tyre
and fortified the mole as he went along},
and cast a mount against you
{the fortified bridge was the way he could attack the Island
fortifications},
and lift up shields against you
{to protect their heads from rocks dropped from the walls of Tyre}.
{Note: See also Zechariah 9 for more on the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre by Alexander the Great.}
9~~And he shall set engines of war against your walls
{Alexander invented catapults that could throw a 200 lb rock
a half mile at and over the walls},
and with his axes he shall break down your towers
{literally happened}.

Now none of that applied to Alexander. I would like a little more clarity. Don't try to get fancy. No indents, no added garbage. Just the verses.

Again, go back and see why the prophesy does not apply to Alex.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And please, no unreadable walls of text.

Especially unreadable walls of text that you have altered.

If you do that I will quote huge swaths from the article that I linked and you did not read or understand.

 

[GenemZ]

There is no "We'll see", Nebby is dead. People still know where Tyre is.

Post 522.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Post 522.

I couldn't care less about your pastors notes.

Yes we all know how Alex conquered Tyre.

So what?

He was not part of that prophesy.

By the way, we still know where Tyre is.

That alone debunks the prophesy.

 

[GenemZ]

And please, no unreadable walls of text.

Especially unreadable walls of text that you have altered.

If you do that I will quote huge swaths from the article that I linked and you did not read or understand.

The answer is in there. Not on your terms. Your terms does not constitute anything. Only the truth does. The added notes is explaining what is being described in the passage. That is what a good teacher will do so people will not continue wondering what its about. What is noted as being attributed to Alexander the Great could not have applied to the Nebuchadnezzar.

Have it your way. Not on your terms, but you have been answered.

 

[GenemZ]

I couldn't care less about your pastors notes.

Yes we all know how Alex conquered Tyre.

So what?

He was not part of that prophesy.

By the way, we still know where Tyre is.

That alone debunks the prophesy.

And, we still know where Sodom was.

The issue of the waves covering Tyre was explained. Don't say it was not.

26:8~~He{prophecy of Alexander the Great} shall slay with the sword your daughters in the field and he shall make a fort against you {Alexander built a half mile long 'rock bridge' to the Island of Tyre and fortified the mole as he went along}, and cast a mount against you {the fortified bridge was the way he could attack the Island fortifications}, and lift up shields against you {to protect their heads from rocks dropped from the walls of Tyre}.

{Note: See also Zechariah 9 for more on the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre by Alexander the Great.}


9~~And he shall set engines of war against your walls {Alexander invented catapults that could throw a 200 lb rock a half mile at and over the walls} (not Nebby!) ,and with his axes he shall break down your towers {literally happened}.​

 

[Subduction Zone]

The answer is in there. Not on your terms. Your terms does not constitute anything. Only the truth does. The added notes is explaining what is being described in the passage. That is what a good teacher will do so people will not continue wondering what its about. What is noted as being attributed to Alexander the Great could not have applied to the Nebuchadnezzar.

Have it your way. Not on your terms, but you have been answered.

No, it isn't.
Once again, you already gave a tacit admission that the prophesy applies to Nebby. Until you show some evidence to the contrary that fact stands.

And the added notes only show what your pastor thought, not what the passages actually meant. Remember he was not interested in "the truth". He was interested in trying to squeeze the known facts into the failed prophesy.

That does not work.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And, we still know where Sodom was.

The issue of the waves covering Tyre was explained. Don't say it was not. Keep squirming.

No. Since Sodom was a mythical city no one is sure where it is. The fact that a city has been found that was possibly buried by volcanic activity does not make that town "Sodom".

And you were the one who said that Tyre was flooded, not me. I knew all along that the Bible verses were mere poetry.

Can't you be honest about anything?

I can go back and quote your errors back to you if I have to.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I fail to see your point. The name of the land Tyre may have remained. But we do not find any Tyreanians. God spoke of destroying the people. Just like we do not see any Philistines today. But, the land of Palestine remains. Palestine was named after the Philistines.

19 For this is what the Lord God says: “When I make you a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise up the deep against you so that the mighty waters cover you,


There was no mention of being forever covered. It could have been a tsunami that utterly wiped them out.

For, it does not say...


For this is what the Lord God says: “When I make you a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise up the deep against you so that the mighty waters cover you forever. (it does not say that!)

Looks like God dealt the final blow over the people with a massive flood.


And, here is how that flood was brought about.

The destruction of Tyre could have been plausible. However, the prophecy that Tyre would be thrown into the midst of the sea, and its former location be scraped like the top of a rock seemed more than implausible. Yet both these prophecies were fulfilled. Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieged the city and conquered it. The inhabitants of Tyre, however, escaped to a nearby island. Nebuchadnezzar then rendered the city to ruins. For two and-a-half centuries, these ruins were a mute contradiction of the Bible.

When Alexander the Great conquered the Medo-Persian empire, long after Nebuchadnezzar's siege, the new island city of Tyre resisted his advances. Frustrated by their efforts, Alexander ordered his troops to build a causeway to the island by throwing the ancient ruins of mainland Tyre into the midst of the sea,

Tyre and the Bible | Destruction Of Tyre | Alexander the Great Victory



​

It was a temporary flood. A man-made dam type flood that did it!

God did destroy them.

You do not find any Tyreranians alive today. Nor, will you find Assyrians, nor Philistines... let alone Sodomites.God wiped them all from the face of the earth.

Unedited quote where you brought up the claim of a "flood".

 

[GenemZ]

Unedited quote where you brought up the claim of a "flood".

I told you what happened. Your thread-gang was trying to rush me for a quick answer. I was told I had run off because I was not giving one right away. My biggest mistake was thinking your claim had some validity to it that was to be found in the Scripture. So, reluctantly, I began throwing back speculative answers from the little I was able to see at that time. I have never studied in depth this passage for the reasons you gave.

But, now that I have had some time? I am beginning to formulate answers that you wish to push aside and return to where you had me in the beginning? So be it.

 

[biggles53]

I told you what happened. Your thread-gang was trying to rush me for a quick answer. I was told I had run off because I was not giving one right away. My biggest mistake was thinking your claim had some validity to it that was to be found in the Scripture. So, reluctantly, I began throwing back speculative answers from the little I was able to see at that time. I have never studied in depth this passage for the reasons you gave.

But, now that I have had some time? I am beginning to formulate answers that you wish to push aside and return to where you had me in the beginning? So be it.

Bottom line.....contrary to the so called 'prophesy' Tyre still stands...

Now....the prophesy supposedly made by Jesus that he would return before the death of those around him...

Do you take CS Lewis' claim that, since Jesus was half man, he simply made a mistake, or is he a liar, or are you going to perform some world class apologist's gymnastics for us...?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I told you what happened. Your thread-gang was trying to rush me for a quick answer. I was told I had run off because I was not giving one right away. My biggest mistake was thinking your claim had some validity to it that was to be found in the Scripture. So, reluctantly, I began throwing back speculative answers from the little I was able to see at that time. I have never studied in depth this passage for the reasons you gave.

But, now that I have had some time? I am beginning to formulate answers that you wish to push aside and return to where you had me in the beginning? So be it.

Wait a second. You couldn't even take time to read the silly verse and you were making definitive claims about a "flood".

There was no gang attack. I wanted your opinion. You got it terribly wrong and had to go to your pastor, who is not much better than you since he does not know the history of the region, for help and he got it wrong too.

One thing that is very clear is that the prophesy, as biggles53 pointed out and I pointed out at the very start of this discussion, is that it says Tyre would never be found again. Specifically:

"19 The Sovereign Lord says: “I will make you as desolate as ruined cities where no one lives. I will cover you with the water of the ocean depths. 20 I will send you down to the world of the dead to join the people who lived in ancient times. I will make you stay in that underground world among eternal ruins, keeping company with the dead. As a result you will never again be inhabited and take your place[c] in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terrifying example, and that will be the end of you. People may look for you, but you will never be found.” The Sovereign Lord has spoken."

That is Ezekiel 26:19-21.

Tyre has not been covered by water. It is not "desolate". People live there.

I don't think Tyre as it is today is giving anyone the willies.

 

[Subduction Zone]

genez, all of your claims have been shown to be male bovine end product.

Both before you got help and after you got help.

You never did object to the reasoning for the prophesy applying to Nebuchadnezzar only. The fact is this prophesy is a lose/lose proposition all around for literalists. Either the prophesy is a failed prophesy, or prophesies are meaning less since they can be defined to cover anything.

Here is a helpful suggestion, quit while you are behind.

 

[GenemZ]

Bottom line.....contrary to the so called 'prophesy' Tyre still stands...

The prophesy stands. Your understanding of it I'm not too sure of.

Now....the prophesy supposedly made by Jesus that he would return before the death of those around him...

Those were not his exact words. Quote his exact words and I will explain that to you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The prophesy stands. Your understanding of it I'm not too sure of.



Those were not his exact words. Quote his exact words and I will explain that to you.

Nope, if Tyre still stands the prophesy fails.

In fact it failed long long ago.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here is an honest question:

What was the point of the Tyre prophecy?