Hell, Visions and Mary K Baxter

[ACL]

Thanks, will look it up.

 

[St Phoebe]

Hi Tobias
Isaiah 66: 24 and they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. The people that goes to hell is the once that transgressed, sinners, the people that reject Christ and do not accept his salvation. There are instances where people ie Christians follow the Lord and turns away. An example would be Judas which followed Jesus and turned away.
The psalmist says in Psalm 23, Ye though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff comforts me, in reading this it is clear that if the Shepherd does not lead you that there is possibly evil in the valley of the shadow of death and this is just the valley of the shadow of death. And another scripture says, the last enemy to be destroyed is death and when our mortality is changed to immortality then death is destroyed. This happens at the second coming of Jesus. The scripture also says death where is thy sting oh grave where is thy victory, and that the sting of death is sin. I think that sinners will feel that sting but the saints will have the victory over death through Christ.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. I believe after the judgement that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire - what will be the point of this scripture when there is really no hell/ hades. This is how I see it, if I commit a crime (sin) today and I am caught, I go to jail (hell) awaiting trial. If I am found guilty, I get my sentence to go to jail (lake of fire). Jesus paid the price for his followers, the bail before the final judgement.
In terms of the greek gods, see these verses And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God – based on these verses, I do not have much to say on your visions oh and him who the Son sets free is free indeed. Only Jesus can set people free.

 

[Alithis]

Hi Tobias
Isaiah 66: 24 and they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. The people that goes to hell is the once that transgressed, sinners, the people that reject Christ and do not accept his salvation. There are instances where people ie Christians follow the Lord and turns away. An example would be Judas which followed Jesus and turned away.
The psalmist says in Psalm 23, Ye though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff comforts me, in reading this it is clear that if the Shepherd does not lead you that there is possibly evil in the valley of the shadow of death and this is just the valley of the shadow of death. And another scripture says, the last enemy to be destroyed is death and when our mortality is changed to immortality then death is destroyed. This happens at the second coming of Jesus. The scripture also says death where is thy sting oh grave where is thy victory, and that the sting of death is sin. I think that sinners will feel that sting but the saints will have the victory over death through Christ.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. I believe after the judgement that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire - what will be the point of this scripture when there is really no hell/ hades. This is how I see it, if I commit a crime (sin) today and I am caught, I go to jail (hell) awaiting trial. If I am found guilty, I get my sentence to go to jail (lake of fire). Jesus paid the price for his followers, the bail before the final judgement.
In terms of the greek gods, see these verses And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God – based on these verses, I do not have much to say on your visions oh and him who the Son sets free is free indeed. Only Jesus can set people free.

clear and concise .. must say

 

[Tobias]

Things are pretty simple when it comes to deciding whether to accept someone else's visions or not. We can easily find 20 different things "wrong" with Baxter's book on hell; and with most Christians they'd rather be safe than sorry. So the policy of "reject first, ask questions later" seems to work... ok.


The real problem though is when you have a vision of your own. Especially one where God is a character who's involved, but many of the other details are questionable. I've had some time to think about my visions, so I've had to ask the difficult questions that we skip over most of the time when it comes to rejecting other people's stuff. Not to find any excuse possible to "prove" mine was from God, but simply to question if I have the right (or responsibility) to reject it as NOT from Him.


It is very difficult to try to apply biblical principles to visions that occur today. Visions in the Bible were very strange, and had hidden meanings that we often still do not understand. I don't think that most of the rules we find in the Bible actually apply to visions of heaven and hell. Take this for example:

Say I traveled to heaven and met Joan of Arc. Where I talked to her and noticed she was still wearing men's cloths and had short hair.

How would we judge such a vision, using the Bible? For one, Joan was burned at the stake, condemned for wearing men's cloths. The Bible forbids women from wearing men's clothing.

Would that be enough to prove the vision is false?

Or what about the short hair? Are women in heaven allowed to wear short hair, contrary to the scriptures? (Or am I just being stupid? )

Then there is the accusation of Necromancy. Because Joan of Arc is technically dead, some Christians seem to think that talking to saints in heaven falls under the "necromancy" clause. Somehow I can't imagine that is what they were talking about when the laws were written in the OT, but that's where many Christians like to take things.

Like I say, we often reject first just to play it safe. Many will reject this as "not a vision from God" because of the details I've mentioned. Some will even reject it just from hearing Joan of Arc's name, because they KNOW she's not in heaven, but in hell!

 

[Tobias]

Putting my vision of hades through some of the same tests to see if it actually violates the scriptures, what does the Bible really tell us?

For one, it tells us not to worship other gods. Not to worship their idols, or seek them in place of God. What it does not tell us however, is who all this applies to. For instance, Michael is a loyal angel of God. Yet in thousands of churches worldwide you will find statues and "graven images" of his likeness that people bow down to every day. This does not make Michael a false god. Those who worship him are wrong, but he himself is not judged by the actions of mankind.

The Bible does not state that the characters in my vision are "fallen angels who God has forbidden us to have any contact with." It does not mention any of them by name. The people were most definitely forbidden to worship at any of their idols, but does that automatically mean these guys are bad?

God sent me into the Underworld with Hekate as my guide. Had he sent me with Michael instead, nobody would have a problem. But what's the real difference between the two? They both have idols made in their image that people worship. But for some reason we "know" Michael is good, and the real Hekate that someone might meet out there in the spiritual realm is an evil pagan goddess.

It was mentioned earlier that one of the problems with Baxter's book is that Satan sat on the throne in Hell. If Satan and his goons don't get to rule over hell and get their jollies out of torturing humans, then who's in charge down there? Beelzebub? lol I think not.

Jesus never mentioned "Hell", nor does the Bible talk about it. Hel is the place of the dead in Norse mythology, and we have simply adopted that name in English. What Jesus did talk about though was Hades. Hades was the mythological place of the dead for the Greeks, which was ruled by the god Hades. I would think that the chances of a guy named "Hades" being the one appointed by God to rule over hell is a lot greater than it being ruled by Satan.

So while the Bible is very clear that we are not to worship other beings besides God (or their idols), it does not really specify which of these beings exist in opposition to God or in service to Him. I don't think it is too far of a stretch to think that maybe, sometimes, the pagans actually encountered beings that were loyal to God, but defiled their names by worshiping them.

 

[Tobias]

Other verses which may support what your saying or at least support the premise that Christians hold great forgiving or damning power are Matthew 16:19, the keys to the kingdom and John 20:23, the power of the disciple forgiving or retaining sin.

I take it you or many on here do not believe in "once saved always saved" as the concept you and Baxter touch on is of Christians through sin or lack of faith [maybe the same thing] entering into Hell.

It had never occurred to me that the Great White Throne Judgement would happen at the point of ones death so I see what you are saying. My limited understanding is that Hell would be thrown into the Abyss after the great judgement [which is only for unbelievers] there the Demons and Satan would suffer, notice in Baxter's account they don't suffer but inflict torment in Hell. Maybe they do actually meet their punishment in the Abyss.

Also what is Eternity? Is it forever as many understand it to be. We only understand the concept of Eternity within the limited and linear concept of time. Again this may support your vision of forgiving or freeing the couple from Hell. The abyss after the Great White Throne Judgement may well be a different matter though.

Your vision and Baxter's make the assumption or rest on the assumption that non Christians[ for want of a better word ] go straight to hell, Tobias how do you reconcile that with all the Ghosts and apparitions people see or have seen? How does the Astral plane fit in with this? I know many Christians say that ghosts and apparitions are Demons in disguise but this seems a bit of a black and white answer and appears to whitewash a very complex subject.

Last point how do you distinguish between a dream and a vision? I've never had a vision so am interested. Anyway thanks for sharing your vision.

Just by placing the Final Judgement into it's scriptural place in the future, changes Christian doctrine considerably. It leaves open all sorts of possibilities, and bridges the gap between Christianity and what everyone else reports seeing in the spiritual realm. It's amazing, really!

There is no reason to say that ghosts cannot be the spirits of the dead. Why not? Judgement hasn't happened yet! They missed their "door" to go to either heaven of hell, so they are left to wander till someone finds them or they choose to move along. Ghosts still might be demons, but at least Christian theology doesn't indicate that they have to be demons.

Things change too when it comes to angels, who also are not judged yet at this point. Leaving plenty of room for shades of gray. We like to imagine that angels are either 100% loyal to God, or 100% slaves of Satan. But that is not scriptural. I think they are more like people, who are still in the process of making a choice. An angelic being doing something for God is going to have the same type of anointing that we feel on people who are preaching a message or working miracles in the name of God. If we look for that anointing (instead of trying to judge the messenger), we can feel safe when we see God's signature of approval upon the person (or angel) that He has chosen to use at the time.

 

[Tobias]

Oh, and remember that Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit to go into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. During that time Satan took Jesus up to the top of the temple and asked him to jump off.

Hekate does not HAVE to be good, or loyal to God in any way, for Him to ask me to follow her into the Underworld.

 

[Faulty]

Hekate does not HAVE to be good, or loyal to God in any way, for Him to ask me to follow her into the Underworld.

Did this verse cross your mind at any point?

Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Amos 3:3​

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Things are pretty simple when it comes to deciding whether to accept someone else's visions or not. We can easily find 20 different things "wrong" with Baxter's book on hell; and with most Christians they'd rather be safe than sorry. So the policy of "reject first, ask questions later" seems to work... ok.


The real problem though is when you have a vision of your own. Especially one where God is a character who's involved, but many of the other details are questionable. I've had some time to think about my visions, so I've had to ask the difficult questions that we skip over most of the time when it comes to rejecting other people's stuff. Not to find any excuse possible to "prove" mine was from God, but simply to question if I have the right (or responsibility) to reject it as NOT from Him.


It is very difficult to try to apply biblical principles to visions that occur today. Visions in the Bible were very strange, and had hidden meanings that we often still do not understand. I don't think that most of the rules we find in the Bible actually apply to visions of heaven and hell. Take this for example:

Say I traveled to heaven and met Joan of Arc. Where I talked to her and noticed she was still wearing men's cloths and had short hair.

How would we judge such a vision, using the Bible? For one, Joan was burned at the stake, condemned for wearing men's cloths. The Bible forbids women from wearing men's clothing.

Would that be enough to prove the vision is false?

Or what about the short hair? Are women in heaven allowed to wear short hair, contrary to the scriptures? (Or am I just being stupid? )

Then there is the accusation of Necromancy. Because Joan of Arc is technically dead, some Christians seem to think that talking to saints in heaven falls under the "necromancy" clause. Somehow I can't imagine that is what they were talking about when the laws were written in the OT, but that's where many Christians like to take things.

Like I say, we often reject first just to play it safe. Many will reject this as "not a vision from God" because of the details I've mentioned. Some will even reject it just from hearing Joan of Arc's name, because they KNOW she's not in heaven, but in hell!

Can I ask you a question? Were these visions or dreams?

A vision would occur while you were awake. A dream while you were sleeping.

 

[idomin00]

I read Mary K Baxter's book, and it brought me closer to Jesus

 

[Tobias]

Did this verse cross your mind at any point?

Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Amos 3:3​

Honestly, no. It's not one I'm all that familiar with, so the chances of it popping into my head anytime during this experience was practically nill.

Wouldn't you think though that Jesus had to be in agreement with Satan to travel with him to the top of the temple? Or was Jesus kidnapped by Satan against his will?

From the scriptures, I think that there is a proper time to listen to Satan, and a proper time to tell him; "Get thee behind me!!!" Often we have to simply endure the trial (like Job), waiting till God says "Enough!" Then we can tell Satan where to go.

Can I ask you a question? Were these visions or dreams?

A vision would occur while you were awake. A dream while you were sleeping.

They weren't dreams. I knew they were about to happen and usually got comfortable on the floor. Though the post you quoted about Joan of Arc was mostly just a "what if" scenario.

 

[Alithis]

I read Mary K Baxter's book, and it brought me closer to Jesus

have to admit ..it was a very very long time ago and im beginning to wonder if i did read it haha am i mixing it up with a book called the visions of marietta davis
or if i read them both round the same time ..i should get and read both again .

 

[St Phoebe]

Hi Tobias
The bible says we must try the spirits whether it is from God. I watched a documentary about the beginnings of America. Spirits were communicating with philosopher Francis Bacon and also John Dee advising them they should not be in the frontline, be known and those sorts of wonderful things. When listening to what was said you would think it is good, kind of spiritual. As the communication continued in another part, the spirits told him not to talk about Jesus/God etc. Only at this point was it clear that these spirits could not be from God. Francis Bacon did lots of good work in his scientific research and his search for Atlantis the lost City and to prepare the world for this by doing his part about the language issue. (God confounded their language after the flood – tower of Babel but Bacon wanted the language to be one and easy) if you think about it, it is a good thing but what is the agenda behind it, maybe a New World Order against God??? Also in this documentary it indicated that Bacon could possibly be the writer of William Shakespeare’s books. Shakespeare is known as the greatest writer in the English language so, who wrote the books Shakespeare or Bacon because those spirits did inspire Bacon not to be in the frontline. 2 Cor 11: 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. In terms of the visions that you had, only the Holy Spirit can lead you into truth about it. If you are convicted by God’s Spirit that the visions are from God, who is anyone to tell you otherwise and the same applies to Mary Baxter’s visions. And if God gave you the visions, does it matter if anyone disagrees??? God told many of the prophets of the Bible that he is sending them to a stiffnecked people and He also said that Israel would not accept it. Do not lose heart, seek God regarding your visions and what the purpose of these visions are. I also suggest that you use the bible as a guideline, God speaks to us through His word and the word is Jesus (the word became flesh). When Peter had the vision of the sheet with clean and unclean animals, He said no Lord 3 times and later He understood that it was about the Gentiles that can receive the gospel. If Peter was so convinced about the vision, he could have possibly just do as God said straight away. After seeing so many manipulations in Christianity I am sure you can understand why it is so easy to reject first and ask questions later. With reference to long hair/short hair, men’s clothes etc. same principle, there are different spirits in the interpretations on the writings of Paul and also what interpretations are accepted and rejected but I suppose this is for another thread altogether as there are so many views. Did not have a chance to read through your other posts yet.

 

[talitha]

I have not read the books, so I cannot judge Ms. Baxter's teachings - I can only recount this memory..... Years ago I heard Baxter speak at a ladies' conference. One night she spoke about Hell. As I look back on it, it was rather Dante-an, but it's been a long time.... The next night she was going to speak about Heaven, but when she approached the platform she could not speak, the presence of God was so strong. I remember I was sitting on the floor against the wall, and I felt the weight of God's presence on me like a thick blanket. It was difficult to stay sitting up, and after a while I gave up and lay down. Others were going down to the floor too, some prostrating themselves in God's presence. At some point someone started to play the piano, and during that time was the first time I remember seeing visions. It was incredible.

 

[idomin00]

I have not read the books, so I cannot judge Ms. Baxter's teachings - I can only recount this memory..... Years ago I heard Baxter speak at a ladies' conference. One night she spoke about Hell. As I look back on it, it was rather Dante-an, but it's been a long time.... The next night she was going to speak about Heaven, but when she approached the platform she could not speak, the presence of God was so strong. I remember I was sitting on the floor against the wall, and I felt the weight of God's presence on me like a thick blanket. It was difficult to stay sitting up, and after a while I gave up and lay down. Others were going down to the floor too, some prostrating themselves in God's presence. At some point someone started to play the piano, and during that time was the first time I remember seeing visions. It was incredible.

Wow, you're blessed to taste the Glory or Kabod of God....I've heard they still happen these days in meetings with, Randy Clarke, Bill Johnson, Kevin Basconi, etc

 

[Alive_Again]

Hell in many ways is Dante like (worse really). As marvelous and creative and sense exhilarating as Heaven is, Hell is the same way in the inverse.

It's different in different places. The Outer Darkess is different from the pits. Reading from many accounts, it just depends on how you lived you life. One believer was allowed to experience 60 seconds of Hell and he was inside of a rock that was not tall enough to stand up in. He was constantly at the point of utter exhaustion; thought that he would perish just from the fumes; always at extreme thirst; hopelessness; despondency, etc.

The delusion is that everyone is going to Heaven. Also, as MANY have testified to, many who believed in the Lord and walked in His ways and gave up, end up in there.

Although there are many deathbed confessions, many don't get that opportunity.

Mary's testimonies are on Youtube and she has a sweet spirit. Her own son died several times. Each time the Lord spared him and brought him back. He was given a warning the last time that he won't tell his mother about.

 

[Alithis]

I have not read the books, so I cannot judge Ms. Baxter's teachings - I can only recount this memory..... Years ago I heard Baxter speak at a ladies' conference. One night she spoke about Hell. As I look back on it, it was rather Dante-an, but it's been a long time.... The next night she was going to speak about Heaven, but when she approached the platform she could not speak, the presence of God was so strong. I remember I was sitting on the floor against the wall, and I felt the weight of God's presence on me like a thick blanket. It was difficult to stay sitting up, and after a while I gave up and lay down. Others were going down to the floor too, some prostrating themselves in God's presence. At some point someone started to play the piano, and during that time was the first time I remember seeing visions. It was incredible.

i have no comment sis' -reading that just made me joyful.

 

[whatfor]

Just by placing the Final Judgement into it's scriptural place in the future, changes Christian doctrine considerably. It leaves open all sorts of possibilities, and bridges the gap between Christianity and what everyone else reports seeing in the spiritual realm. It's amazing, really!

There is no reason to say that ghosts cannot be the spirits of the dead. Why not? Judgement hasn't happened yet! They missed their "door" to go to either heaven of hell, so they are left to wander till someone finds them or they choose to move along. Ghosts still might be demons, but at least Christian theology doesn't indicate that they have to be demons.

Things change too when it comes to angels, who also are not judged yet at this point. Leaving plenty of room for shades of gray. We like to imagine that angels are either 100% loyal to God, or 100% slaves of Satan. But that is not scriptural. I think they are more like people, who are still in the process of making a choice. An angelic being doing something for God is going to have the same type of anointing that we feel on people who are preaching a message or working miracles in the name of God. If we look for that anointing (instead of trying to judge the messenger), we can feel safe when we see God's signature of approval upon the person (or angel) that He has chosen to use at the time.

This post has brought up memories of what I saw while in hospital just over a year ago, interesting

 

[Alithis]

This post has brought up memories of what I saw while in hospital just over a year ago, interesting

the part about angels having the same type of anointing etc... is questionable ..
isn't it written that the relationship of god and man via the Holy Spirit ..is something angels desire to look into? ..they don't know it .?

 

[Tobias]

the part about angels having the same type of anointing etc... is questionable ..
isn't it written that the relationship of god and man via the Holy Spirit ..is something angels desire to look into? ..they don't know it .?

idk. That's a good point. What is it about our relationship with God that the angels strive to understand?


I don't think they have any difficulties though with doing or saying specific things for God. That's how angels are usually depicted in the Bible. Either saying something, or doing a job for Him.

I think that the same type of anointing, or whatever it is that lets us know when God is speaking to us through a fellow human being, also is there when we hear a message through an angel. We sense God in the words delivered to us. With other humans we look at them funny because it is unusual to see them act that way. But with angels we are unfamiliar with their natural state, and many people in the Bible felt compelled to worship the angel. I would imagine that is because they recognized the authority of God coming through the angel, but didn't know enough to separate the Glory of God from the angel who was just the messenger.