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Sophrosyne

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Jesus never honored Sunday. Jesus never taught us anything about Sunday. Sunday is not the Lord's Day. If we are going to exalt the name Christian then we had better be walking like Jesus.

1 John 2:6 The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked.
You are beating a dead horse comparing Sunday to the Sabbath here. NONE of us "Christians" consider the two on par with each other. I don't exalt the name "Christian" neither do I trivialize it like you seem to do here. Paul himself was proud to be called one as I am.

In other words for most Christians you are playing straw man here. You are equating the Lords Day (or Sunday) with equal to the Sabbath Day and then attacking it on the same level as the Sabbath when they are not comparable in a fashion to do so. I will agree there are some Christians who do indeed make an effort to treat Sunday as a Sabbath but they are probably around as many as there are SDA's out there and are in effect a minority of Christians. If you are speaking of Catholics I don't represent nor defend them and their theology but I would say by practice that they don't treat Sunday on the level of a Sabbath either. Until you start producing major amounts of Christians who prepare to cease from working all Sunday prior to it and make a concerted attempt to refrain from work on Sunday then you only have your straw man to play with here.
 
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maco

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Sophrosyne;Never been proven, if you equate the sun god with Sunday worship then you must equate the worship of Saturn with Saturday also which likewise makes it pagan. I could care less about Sunday being called the Lord's day. Nobody here is defending Sunday replaces the Jewish Sabbath Day at all which is your straw man.

Do your research.

My works aren't for the sake of salvation. I don't keep commandments to BE saved or to STAY saved. I love God and my neighbor because I AM saved. My identity isn't about keeping rules but about he who rules within my spirit.

This all sounds nice but it's all fluff, every relationship has rules. You can't even love God or neighbor without rules.

Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Do away with the rules and then same sex marriage is okay along with a whole slew of ungodly things.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Do your research.
No need to, I don't need to defend against straw men
This all sounds nice but it's all fluff, every relationship has rules. You can't even love God or neighbor without rules.



1 Corinthians 13 (New American Standard Bible)

The Excellence of Love

13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body [a]to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 [b]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Did you even READ this? This actually destroys your position entirely.
Do away with the rules and then same sex marriage is okay along with a whole slew of ungodly things.
Rules do nothing to stop sin. People sinned before the 10 commandments the SAME as after them. David had the 10 commandments and it did nothing to stop him from sinning. God could have told him to love his neighbor and the result would be the SAME... he would have been a murderer and an adulterer with OR without rules in place.
Without enforcement rules can be ignored the same as those who refuse to love their neighbor. If one loves their neighbor they won't be thinking of rules but they will think is it nice for me to sleep with his wife? It is nice and loving to murder him or steal his stuff?? We need no commandment to tell us such behavior isn't of God and doesn't honor they way he created us to be.
 
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Sophrosyne

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There lies the problem.
Yes, it is your problem. Your ideas that I am "keeping" and honoring specific days over others when in fact I have not done so. I don't need to look at my calendar to say "I need to prepare for keeping this or that day". I don't need to be concerned on Sunday about working or not. I don't feel the least bit sinful about working Saturdays and getting paid for it even. I've read the Bible, done my research and found that Paul equates no day as special over another for Christians. Paul says the Law is no longer mandatory upon us we can choose or not choose to follow it as we please and not be seen as a sinner for doing or not doing so if we keep that mindset. The minute you make the Law mandatory you exalt it to your judge and jury and it replaces Grace as your judge.
 
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You are beating a dead horse comparing Sunday to the Sabbath here. NONE of us "Christians" consider the two on par with each other. I don't exalt the name "Christian" neither do I trivialize it like you seem to do here. Paul himself was proud to be called one as I am.

In other words for most Christians you are playing straw man here. You are equating the Lords Day (or Sunday) with equal to the Sabbath Day and then attacking it on the same level as the Sabbath when they are not comparable in a fashion to do so. I will agree there are some Christians who do indeed make an effort to treat Sunday as a Sabbath but they are probably around as many as there are SDA's out there and are in effect a minority of Christians. If you are speaking of Catholics I don't represent nor defend them and their theology but I would say by practice that they don't treat Sunday on the level of a Sabbath either. Until you start producing major amounts of Christians who prepare to cease from working all Sunday prior to it and make a concerted attempt to refrain from work on Sunday then you only have your straw man to play with here.
I noticed they love scarecrows.
 
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Do your research.



This all sounds nice but it's all fluff, every relationship has rules. You can't even love God or neighbor without rules.

Romans 13:8-9 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Do away with the rules and then same sex marriage is okay along with a whole slew of ungodly things.
You're only skewing to promote the law over grace refusing the free gift. Most unfortunate.
 
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pshun2404

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2 Corinthians 3 - 3 Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (the 10 Commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart (by the indwelling Spirit of God). 4 And such is the trust have we through Christ toward God: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything of ourselves (like as if we keep the commandments and others do not); but our sufficiency is of God (because it is not by what we do or have done, but of Christ); 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills (brings death), but the spirit gives life (His life in us the expectation of glory).

7 But if the ministration of death (the sin consciousness brought on by the Law), written and engraved in stones (that is the 10 Commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance; which glory eventually faded (because by the commandments they were all guilty): 8 How shall the ministration of the Spirit not be even more glorious (who while we were yet sinners Christ dies for the ungodly…by love and grace)?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory (that righteousness which is by faith and not works).

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels (for it never ends). 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more is that which remains glorious.

In the Exodus Pentecost (Shavuot), 50 days after the deliverance of Israel, the Lord gave the letter of the Law engraved in stone. It was at Mount Sinai in Arabia (called also Horeb), the mount of God in the land of Jethro of Midian…as Moses came down declaring the Commandments the people fled and 3,000 eternally died

(You shall, you shall, you shall not, you shall not…it is all about “Thou” and the eye turns onto self)

In the Acts Pentecost, 50 days after deliverance of whosoever will that would come, the Lord gave the Spirit, and wrote all we need in our hearts. It was on Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem the city made Holy by God. Jesus went UP giving the Spirit and 3,000 were eternally saved.

(And they went about preaching the wonderful works of God…they glorified Christ, led them to salvation…it’s all about God and the eye turns to Christ…what He said and what He did and His gracious offer of love – 2:37-39)

Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…though grace the love of God to-usward…the ministry of death was engraved on stone and the ministry of righteousness engraved on our hearts by the knowledge of salvation.

Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Alive apart from the law…dead by the law! Alive through Christ’s sufficient and pleasing sacrifice.


Colossians 2 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (the Law), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
.

So He not only nailed our sins to the cross but also the ordinances against us so they no longer have any effect…by grace we are SAVED.

Paul
 
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maco

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2 Corinthians 3 - 3 Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (the 10 Commandments), but in fleshy tables of the heart (by the indwelling Spirit of God). 4 And such is the trust have we through Christ toward God: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything of ourselves (like as if we keep the commandments and others do not); but our sufficiency is of God (because it is not by what we do or have done, but of Christ); 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills (brings death), but the spirit gives life (His life in us the expectation of glory).

7 But if the ministration of death (the sin consciousness brought on by the Law), written and engraved in stones (that is the 10 Commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance; which glory eventually faded (because by the commandments they were all guilty): 8 How shall the ministration of the Spirit not be even more glorious (who while we were yet sinners Christ dies for the ungodly…by love and grace)?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory (that righteousness which is by faith and not works).

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels (for it never ends). 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more is that which remains glorious.

In the Exodus Pentecost (Shavuot), 50 days after the deliverance of Israel, the Lord gave the letter of the Law engraved in stone. It was at Mount Sinai in Arabia (called also Horeb), the mount of God in the land of Jethro of Midian…as Moses came down declaring the Commandments the people fled and 3,000 eternally died

(You shall, you shall, you shall not, you shall not…it is all about “Thou” and the eye turns onto self)

In the Acts Pentecost, 50 days after deliverance of whosoever will that would come, the Lord gave the Spirit, and wrote all we need in our hearts. It was on Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem the city made Holy by God. Jesus went UP giving the Spirit and 3,000 were eternally saved.

(And they went about preaching the wonderful works of God…they glorified Christ, led them to salvation…it’s all about God and the eye turns to Christ…what He said and what He did and His gracious offer of love – 2:37-39)

Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin…though grace the love of God to-usward…the ministry of death was engraved on stone and the ministry of righteousness engraved on our hearts by the knowledge of salvation.

Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Alive apart from the law…dead by the law! Alive through Christ’s sufficient and pleasing sacrifice.

Colossians 2 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all your trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (the Law), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

So He not only nailed our sins to the cross but also the ordinances against us so they no longer have any effect…by grace we are SAVED.

Saved from your sins, the Law is not sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Sophrosyne
You are beating a dead horse comparing Sunday to the Sabbath here. NONE of us "Christians" consider the two on par with each other. I don't exalt the name "Christian" neither do I trivialize it like you seem to do here. Paul himself was proud to be called one as I am.
I noticed they love scarecrows.
:)

NKJV) Luke 9:62
But Jesus said to him, "No one having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

NKJV) 1 Corinthians 9:10
Or does He say [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written, 'that he who plows should plow in hope,
and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope'.

Rain on the Scarecrow - YouTube
Yup... like the one that says that Sunday worship is the sign of the beast.. scary crow that is :p
:angel: :cool:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7444322-13/#post54205421
Is Sunday worship mark of the beast? Poll Thread

Since a thread on this topic was closed by the OP awhile back, I thought I would start one it.
The below is the OP of that thread and would like to ask if this view is held by only a few sects/denominations within Christianity or is it more widespread?
I never heard of this view until I saw it on another thread.
So how many here agree with this "Sunday being the mark of the Beast?

http://www.christianforums.com/t6982465-107/#post44368491


.
 
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Sophrosyne

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pshun2404

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Yes but no longer UNDER the Law...commandment keeping cannot save we have entered into the Lord's rest (the Lord's Shabbat) IN CHRIST....Christ did not do away with the Law, it still stands against all who are not IN HIM...but Christ did fulfill the Law and we are in HIM...as Jesus says in

So likewise ye, when you have done all that was commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have only done that which was our duty.

Oddly though there is no commandment anywhere OT or NT where one is commanded to go to Tabernacle, Temple, synagogue, or church on the 7th day Sabbath...
 
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BobRyan

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I have a question for SDA'S, I have heard they believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel, but they never admit it, especially their leaders. Does anyone have an answer? I have found this little known fact on the Net.

May God bless, John

here is a little known "secret" -- We believe that Abraham met God in Genesis 18 just like the Bible says. So even though the text says "3 men" in fact it was infinite God and two angels appearing in the form of men. Shhhhhhhhh tell no one.... it is a big secret among us SDAs.

Genesis 18

1. Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”

 
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BobRyan

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Yes but no longer UNDER the Law...commandment keeping cannot save .

Commandment keeping never could save the lost - OT or NT.

I thought we were all on the same page on that point.

Still Paul is correct when he says to the saved saints "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

And of course John is correct in 1John 5:1-4 with his agreement with Paul on that point.

What is great is that even pro-Sunday sources like those listed below - seem to have figured this out.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Commandment keeping never could save the lost - OT or NT.

I thought we were all on the same page on that point.

Still Paul is correct when he says to the saved saints "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

And of course John is correct in 1John 5:1-4 with his agreement with Paul on that point.

What is great is that even pro-Sunday sources like those listed below - seem to have figured this out.
keeping commandments is a worthless venture.... at least the mosaic ones. The commandments in the New Testament are worthwhile of which many are missing including the sabbath. As for your pro sunday argument it is nothing but spam laced hogwash.
 
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LarryP2

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I have a question for SDA'S, I have heard they believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel, but they never admit it, especially their leaders. Does anyone have an answer? I have found this little known fact on the Net.

May God bless, John

They taught that for many years and some still do quietly. Their false prophet, Ellen White, wrote about it many times in voluminous books, the content of her writings are probably 90 percent stolen (Plagiarized). SDA publicly states they believe in the Trinity, but they use a radically different definition of it than does orthodox Christianity. They use their own definition, but dishonestly call it the Trinity in official documents. It emphatically is not the Trinity. At best, SDAs teach "Tritheism," or watered down Arianism, a cultish heresy denounced by Christianity at the First Council of Nicaea. While their present Tritheistic non-trinitarian beliefs DO grudgingly admit the Divinity of Christ, it is nothing like orthodox Christianity's concept of the Trinitarian Godhead. Arianism asserts that Jesus Christ was not God. Extreme Arian beliefs were held by all of the early church leaders, and quietly today by much of the Church leadership. http://www.cultorchristian.com/


According to SDAs, virtually NOTHING was accomplished on the Cross. Which is their underlying motive for their ugly, slanderous smearing of devout and Godly Christians for worshipping on Sunday and celebrating Easter, which are entirely based on celebrating the Resurrection of Christ. To an SDA, the REALLY important work of Christ is being done right now in heaven with the "Investigative Judgment." At best, Jesus was a good example that we should strive to follow. Ultimately, you are "sealed" and actually saved by keeping the Jewish Sabbath.http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2011/1/easterisabigdeal.html

Their entire non-Christian theology was unequivocally denounced in the Book of Galatians and Colossians 2:14-17. Their various cultish and heretical views are a toxic stew of Arianism/Tri-theism, Ebionite and Marcionate heresies.

The Investigative Judgment according to cult expert Donald Barnhouse, is nothing more than a massive face-saving effort after the extremely embarrassing false and failed prediction of Christ's return in 1844. The SDA cult was founded almost entirely on one verse in the Bible, Daniel 8:14, and NOT on the Gospels as was Christianity.https://adventistbiblicalresearch.o...hite-and-interpretation-daniel-and-revelation; http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/sda/id17.html

The ugly, dishonest and non-Christian 1844 debacle spawned a huge profusion of anti-Christian cults like SDA, Jehovah's Witnesses, World Wide Church of God and the Branch Davidians. While such Timesetting is specifically denounced in the New Testament, Ellen White set many false dates for the time of Jesus's return.
http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_Time_Setting.htm

Their unbelievably ugly, slanderous and historically-false view that Christianity celebrates the Resurrection on Sundays and Easter because they are following Pagan customs is a horrific, deliberate smear against Christianity with no basis in history or fact. http://redlands.patch.com/groups/br...ter-not-a-saturday-for-seventh-day-adventists

In reality, their boastful keeping of their non-Christian Sabbath (falsely smearing Sunday-keeping Christians as the "Anti-Christ") their ugly "Pagan" libel against Christianity for celebrating Easter, and their reluctant half-baked embrace of false Trinitarian beliefs are tied together with a common thread: That Christ's Death on the Cross was a partial atonement that we complete by keeping the Mosaic Law.
 
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VictorC

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The Investigative Judgment according to cult expert Donald Barnhouse, is nothing more than a massive face-saving effort after the extremely embarrassing false and failed prediction of Christ's return in 1844.
Dr. Donald Barnhouse provides one of my favorite quotes regarding Adventism's IJ doctrine:
The [sanctuary] doctrine is, to me, the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history. ... We personally do not believe that there is even a suspicion of a verse in Scripture to sustain such a peculiar position, and we further believe that any effort to establish it is stale, flat, and unprofitable. ... [It is] unimportant and almost naïve.
 
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LarryP2

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There is only one common theme that runs through every single important SDA doctrine, either overtly or subtly: Denigrating and Degrading the effect of the Resurrection, or denying the Divinity of Christ.

Unless you understand that, they will stitch together an impressive and mind-numbing stew of half-verses and unrelated and out of context verses to baffle the unwary, illiterate and non-Biblically savvy. It is an extremely devious and deceptive non-Christian cult. I wasted my first 22 years in it, so I know of what I speak. If you understand how their corrupt and un-Biblical system works, you need not debate then on their specific stitched-together rambling collection of half verses and verses taken out of context, because they all are held together with the common "glue" of denying or denigrating the divinity of Christ, or the effect of the Cross, or the effect of the Resurrection. Or all three.

First and foremost, the SDA Church would not exist were it not for their multiple false predictions of Christ's return between 1843 and 1850. They devised an amazing stitched-together and botched misinterpretation of Daniel 8:14 to repeatedly falsely predict the return of Christ. Throughout the cult's lifetime, there have been a truly-jaw dropping massive number of their own theologians who have denounced the 1844 scandal and its mutant bastard child: The Sanctuary Doctrine or the "Investigative Judgment(IJ)" Many of their own top theologians have declared the entire debacle unscriptural and unbiblical. Sadly, the cult's General Conference always fires their dedicated theologians and pastors for being honest about this clearly non-Biblical doctrine.

Misusing Daniel 8:14 like that denigrates Christ, how? By making his return the subject of human prediction, by binding him time wise into your erroneous scripture-sculpting and stitching fetish. Like the Bible is some sort of esoteric code that only a few insiders can crack, rather than the extremely simple and plainly-obvious story of Gospel salvation that was given to the entire world at the Cross.

The IJ was strictly a face-saving fraud, devised out of thin air to compensate for the colossal disaster of 1844. The cult now posits Jesus entered the Holy of Holy places in Heaven in that year, to commence review of our conduct to see if we have earned our salvation with good works. This necessitates an incomplete and unfinished work on the Cross, and a severe denigration of the effect of the Resurrection. This is the REAL reason that Adventist do not worship on Resurrection Day (Sunday and Easter) and insist on their Salvation by works-based Sabbath instead. They want to cow their terrified and panicked members into huddling together in paranoid fantasy, and relieving them of their money most importantly. They instill a paranoid and panicked fear of Roman Catholicism, who they falsely claim "changed Saturday to Sunday," and that one day the Catholics will hunt them down and murder them for keeping the Sabbath. Hence, their Sabbath keeping is really based on virulent Anti-Papacy paranoia coupled with an Un-Biblical fetish of Salvation by Works. Again, this entirely non-Biblical doctrine of Sabbath Keeping was absolutely proven false by their own theology professor, Dr. Samuele Bachiochi.

The IJ itself led logically to many satanically cult doctrines like Sabbath Keeping, Works based Salvation, following the Levitical dietary laws, and various forms of non-Christian and heretical views on the Trinity. In fact, for the first 100 years, the cult revived the ancient Arian Heresy and outright denied the Divinity of Christ. Due to the outcry from orthodox Christendom, they watered down their Arianism, and now deceptively teach a modified Aryanism known as Thritheism (while deceptively claiming they believe in the Trinity). It still is not the Trinity that has provided Salvation "once and for all" and that is THE CENTRAL doctrine of Christianity. The Adventist anti-Trinitariansm heresy eventually spawned such overtly Satantic cults such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Worldwide Church of God and the Branch Davidians. Adventism is much more deceptive and thereby much more successful than those three satanic cults in that the genius of Adventism is to disguise mutant and unbiblical cult doctrines with a thin veneer of superficially Christian-sounding doctrines that disguise its true core. They even managed to sucker cult expert Walter Martin into believing that they were Orthodox Christianity, even though at the end of his life, Martin was ready to write a new book denouncing them as a non-Christian cult once he realized that he had been "Had."

So when they focus obsessively on the Sabbath (which in actual practice, is MUCH more important to them than the Cross or the Resurrection) beware of their perspective. Disregard their ludicrous scripture-sculpting and scripture stitching, and go right for the jugular: Their odious and anti-Christian history of teaching heretical cult doctrine denying or denigrating the Divinity and his role in the unified Godhead of the Trinity.
Last edited by LarryP2; 20th March 2014 at 02:01 PM.
 
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