A Pondering of the Peculiar (3)

[Mainframes]

Where to begin after that spectacular display of ignorance of the mechanics of evolution. I suggest a google of evolution of sexual reproduction would answer those queries very quickly.

 

[USincognito]

Tell me.. Is it easy to give half truths and call them the whole truth?

How would I know? You asked a question and I have you a factual answer. There was nothing in that quote from Wikipedia that said atheism was foundational to Marxism-Leninism (a slightly different strain from Leninism) and, axiomatically, it mentioned nothing about Maoism.

 

[USincognito]

Ok... Let me see if I have this right. While evolution was allegedly working in producing biological life? How could a fetus form in a body that had to be made ready for it before a embryo could ever be produced? To survive in that body? The woman's body had to be fully prepared before a fetus could ever begin. She had to have breasts suddenly appear (million years) to feed the baby. Also, an umbilical cord had to be there to nourish the unborn fetus. It just happened by chance... I get it. (about you)

Wow. Just wow. Every time I see this particular "argument" I'm blown away by the scientific illiteracy it manifests.

Are you unaware that that embryos, fetuses, uterii, placentas and mammary glands existed long before humans evolved?
Are you unaware that the population from which humans evolved was, reproductively virtually identical to humans?
Are you unaware that mammal reproduction for eutherian mammals follows a nearly identical process with nearly identical organs?
Are you unaware that populations evolve, not individuals?
Are you unaware that speciation does not occur in one generation?

And, you are telling me that evolution was at work with the opposite sexes simultaneously, so that one sex could produce sperm and the other an ovum? And all by random chance? That's insane to consider if you can understand all the complexity involved. What did animals do for the first million while there were no glands present to lubricate the vagina, as to make it penetrable?

We are adults here.

And some of us were taught the birds and the bees. Others appear to only have been taught that when a mommy and a daddy love each other...

So, the male genitalia just formed by magic, and somehow knew it needed to become erect in order to procreate? yes! Its very smart! It has a brain of its own! And, lucked out to find itself in the right location to be able to penetrate a vagina? A vagina that was also to luck out and find itself in the right location to procreate? And, all by chance?!

The human (and every animal) body plan forms during embryological development. And it's only the presence of a Y chromosome along with the presence of some hormones and proteins that form the reproductive system from the same cells in the same area. There was no chance involved. The eventual layout of the human reproductive system was set in motion by evolution 300 million years earlier.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I did not need to. I simply knew at that point of my life I was a sinner and turned to the Cross as a means to deal with my messed up life. I was not seeking Christ like you might assume. I saw Jesus as a historical figure that did something in the past in regards to paying for my sins.

I did not bother to analyze much. I simply knew I was a sinner and very unhappy, with no hope in finding happiness on my own. I already tried finding happiness. That is how my life got messed up.

I was not seeking Jesus to make himself real to me. I had no idea that could even happen. I was simply seeking the benefit of my own tainted conscious in relation to the reason he died on the Cross. In spite of my ignorance, God began to transform my life. To say the least, it mystified and perplexed me as to what was going on. It was almost like reaching puberty while not knowing a change was to take place..

Now... I will leave that to your cynicism to make it into something you will feel comfortable with. Something it is not.

So your life was messed up and you felt bad about yourself. You'd tried one method of finding happiness, apparently, and that had helped mess up your life. Sounds like drink or drugs, but it could have been other things. The important bit is that you needed some way to stop you feeling so bad about yourself, some way to stop your conscience bugging you. We know that the conscience is seeing yourself and your actions through other people's eyes, so mending that pain needed a specific type of sticking plaster. Enter jesus. Religion gave you hope and helped come to terms with what had gone wrong and make a new start. You don't analyse the sticking plaster because it works. Things improved for you. Now people are telling you that your sticking plaster isn't real. I can see why you reject it so vehemently. Not only does it go against what you think you have experienced but if they are right and you are wrong then everything you have relied on to help you through the tough times suddenly vanishes. You have a lot riding on it. I'd say that need was paramount in you finding jesus/god.

 

[GenemZ]

Where to begin after that spectacular display of ignorance of the mechanics of evolution. I suggest a google of evolution of sexual reproduction would answer those queries very quickly.

Mechanics of evolution?

Tell me, please.. What would have had to come first?


The needed protective coating we have in our stomach? Or, the needed digestive juices?

Logic says? The protective coating had to precede the digestive juices. Why? The stomach would have been destroyed before any food could be digested.

Don't you ever ponder the logical order of function?! Thinking people with stability do.

Evolution in order to be accepted requires a blinding desire to believe something, combined with an intense self induced state of superficiality. That in the face of the complex data, which should scream at you that evolution would be impossible without a Genius Designer. That it all just could not have possibly fallen in place and lived. Boring! Its self evident.

A car can not form itself. But, you will say its not living and therefore can not evolve. Yet, to become living? That requires infinitely more interaction of the elements, demanding that someone be there to make what is ineret, to become alive!

Why doesn't anyone here have the capacity to think with depth of logic? Or, is it only to be all these superficial wiz kids skating on the surface while imagining themselves superior, because they picture themselves skating circles around those who are standing firm?

There is a wall over there...

 

[lasthero]

Don't you ever ponder the logical order of function?! Thinking people do.

Question - it's a fact that the vast majority of scientists accept evolutionary theory. Somewhere on the order 95%...and that's the conservative estimate. People with degrees, people who've spent and dedicated their lives to this study. 'Thinking people'.

Do you believe that the 'problem' you present never occurred to them? That it's a complete unknown? A simple yes or no, please - no need for a diatribe.

 

[GenemZ]

So your life was messed up and you felt bad about yourself. You'd tried one method of finding happiness, apparently, and that had helped mess up your life. Sounds like drink or drugs, but it could have been other things. The important bit is that you needed some way to stop you feeling so bad about yourself, some way to stop your conscience bugging you. We know that the conscience is seeing yourself and your actions through other people's eyes, so mending that pain needed a specific type of sticking plaster. Enter jesus. Religion gave you hope and helped come to terms with what had gone wrong and make a new start. You don't analyse the sticking plaster because it works. Things improved for you. Now people are telling you that your sticking plaster isn't real. I can see why you reject it so vehemently. Not only does it go against what you think you have experienced but if they are right and you are wrong then everything you have relied on to help you through the tough times suddenly vanishes. You have a lot riding on it. I'd say that need was paramount in you finding jesus/god.

You always only get half of what I say. Then use that half against me.

When are you going to get all of it?

(when you get rid of your tunnel vision)

 

[Mr Strawberry]

You always only get half of what I say. Then use that half against me.

When are you going to get all of it?

(when you get rid of your tunnel vision)

The issue was that belief is driven by need. You identified your need then denied that that was the reason. I just pointed out what you had said, that is all.

 

[GenemZ]

Question - it's a fact that the vast majority of scientists accept evolutionary theory. Somewhere on the order 95%...and that's the conservative estimate. People with degrees, people who've spent and dedicated their lives to this study. 'Thinking people'.

Do you believe that the 'problem' you present never occurred to them? That it's a complete unknown? A simple yes or no, please - no need for a diatribe.

If it had occurred to them why are you not citing examples?

I have presented this to those qualified. The kind of response I received? Oh, you do not know how evolution really works.

So... at least we have 5% who are sane thinking and honest with themselves. Good!

God does not look for high numbers that you so easily praise. After all. Only eight souls walked off an ark that had left the rest of the entire human race drowned and forgotten.

And, only ten righteous were required for God to turn around Sodom. An entire city. And only ten righteous would have caused God to spare it.

5% of all scientists is much higher number than eight, or ten. We're in good shape.

 

[GenemZ]

The issue was that belief is driven by need. You identified your need then denied that that was the reason. I just pointed out what you had said, that is all.

The Cross was not my only option. Its the only one that fit perfectly. I looked into some of the new age things like psychiatry (primal scream), and had attended alternative spiritual presentations. This, mind you, after I had become regenerate unawares. I just kept seeing through these things and saw the superficiality in the thinking. The one that gave me the most consideration was primal scream therapy. But, after studying it a while it became apparent it depended upon people not knowing history to make it sound plausible. Primal scream had a big following... then vanished. It could not produce what it promised. It did produce evidence... But, not results that were lasting.

Again... When I became born again I was not aware that I was born again. As far as I was concerned I was still Jewish and not Christian. But, I also knew that something powerfully supernatural was working in my life that I could not explain. I received all the definition to my experience about ten years later after someone handed me a Bible in plain English. Yet, I did have one powerful encounter while in the army that I had no way of understanding why it was so at the time.

After being born again my thinking was becoming drastically transformed. While the people I knew continued in their same downward spiraling, I found myself pulling away and going it alone. This was during the Viet Nam era.

To make a long story short, my allotted time allowed for a college deferment was over and I got drafted. I went into the army national guard, and had a desire to serve my nation.

The army is a highly pressurized place for the recruits. Many drank on their off time. On a day off I went to the rec room and saw the others playing pool and drinking their beers. I felt no desire to join them. Instead, I went to a side room where there was a small library. I pulled out a book of famous quotations. I was reading and was taking note of the wisdom that many of the greats in history possessed. Then I came upon a section having quotes by Jesus Christ. I thought to myself... "That's odd! Why is he being quoted in a secular book?"

Well, being a Jew I felt a little hesitant, but kept reading. I do not recall what verse I read that was quoted. But what ever it was it vibrated through me from my head to my feet and shook me. I was stunned. I said to myself.. "All these great people I am reading about had wisdom. But, this one? HE KNOWS ME! Up until then I felt all alone in this new world I had entered into. That no one knew me anymore. But, this one called Jesus does.

I put the book back on the shelf and went about my business. I did not make any connection with what I had read with anything I could put my finger on. Only that this one named Jesus alone knew my experience and desire.


So be it.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Mechanics of evolution?

Tell me, please.. What would have had to come first?


The needed protective coating we have in our stomach? Or, the needed digestive juices?

As our ancestors have been tubes that ingest fuel at one end, absorb it in the middle and excrete the wastes at the other end for much of our 3.5 billion year history, it would be fair to say that the tube lining and any secreted fluids that break down the fuel would have evolved in response to what sort of fuel was available. The two would have been evolved together from previous tubes and fluids and will continue to do so. The human stomach didn't suddenly arrive in kit form like a car as your question implies.

Logic says? The protective coating had to precede the digestive juices. Why? The stomach would have been destroyed before any food could be digested.

Then it would seem likely that the low pH of digestive juices and a lining suited to that pH did not arrive millions of years apart. They would have evolved together, slowly, as the pH changed.

Don't you ever ponder the logical order of function?! Thinking people with stability do.

Order of function? Evolution happens in response to changes in environment, and environment means everything that affects a species. Animals with digestive problems don't thrive in the wild. It is only those most suited to digest the available food that will survive to breed. Look at the digestion of cow's milk in humans for a case in point. Only certain human populations can digest cow's milk. Why is that do you think?

I'd also hazard a guess that our digestive systems may have altered very slightly since we started cooking food. Do you think these possible changes might happen in a sequence one after the other or do you think they would all be selected for at the same time with the whole system adapting and changing little by little?

Evolution in order to be accepted requires a blinding desire to believe something, combined with an intense self induced state of superficiality.

Actually, almost everyone who really looks at the evidence comes to the conclusion that the theory of evolution is undeniable.

That in the face of the complex data, which should scream at you that evolution would be impossible without a Genius Designer. That it all just could not have possibly fallen in place and lived. Boring! Its self evident.

It didn't just fall into place.

A car can not form itself.

You are back to your kit assembly mistake again.

But, you will say its not living and therefore can not evolve. Yet, to become living?

It's always interesting to ask if viruses are alive. But, yes, comparing a car with something that grows and reproduces it pretty fatuous.

That requires infinitely more interaction of the elements, demanding that someone be there to make what is ineret, to become alive!

Well, as you know, evolution only deals with living things. But there are hypotheses for abiogenesis which I personally think are probably on the right lines. I certainly don't see any need for a special being to create the first self replicating molecules.

Why doesn't anyone here have the capacity to think with depth of logic? Or, is it only to be all these superficial wiz kids skating on the surface while imagining themselves superior, because they picture themselves skating circles around those who are standing firm?

Or perhaps most people here who accept evolution have studied the subject more than you and understand it better.

There is a wall over there...

...that you seem unable or unwilling to try to peer over.

 

[lasthero]

Oddly enough, a similar question was asked this forum, recently, though with Much less arrogance from the questioner.

EvC Forum: How did the stomach evolve?

 

[GenemZ]

As our ancestors have been tubes that ingest fuel at one end, absorb it in the middle and excrete the wastes at the other end for much of our 3.5 billion year history.

Your ancestors.

The human stomach didn't suddenly arrive in kit form like a car as your question implies.

It did not imply that. I said it would have been even more impossible.

Secular pontificating does not work with those who know truth. You should know that by now. The type of answers you provided require one to be ignoring too many details to be credible.

Your ability to believe anything that smacks data-talk makes reasoning with you near impossible. I know you believe that Christians believe in an imaginary God. You simply believe in your imagination.

Not one thing you stated as an alleged answer is verifiable. Its all conjecture working with certain facts. Its only in your imagination that it is true. Only conjecture that the evolutionist wants the secular world to accept without questioning its validity.

 

[GenemZ]

Oddly enough, a similar question was asked this forum, recently, though with Much less arrogance from the questioner.

EvC Forum: How did the stomach evolve?

One thing I learned from working with people from around the country. If someone has a strong accent to you? You have a strong accent to them. Arrogance works the same way.

 

[GenemZ]

Are you unaware that that embryos, fetuses, uterii, placentas and mammary glands existed long before humans evolved?
Are you unaware that the population from which humans evolved was, reproductively virtually identical to humans?
Are you unaware that mammal reproduction for eutherian mammals follows a nearly identical process with nearly identical organs?

Yes I am aware. OK.. Take it with animals. Its just as impossible to have happened by unguided CHANCE. By random actions just falling in place in a manner that even a genius could not have thought of. In your world, genius is inferior to nothingness.

 

[biggles53]

One thing I learned from working with people from around the country. If someone has a strong accent to you? You have a strong accent to them. Arrogance works the same way.

Excuse me...?

Who is the arrogant one....the person who makes a tentative explanation based upon the evidence he has observed, but concedes that his explanation may be wrong or require refinement.....OR.....the person who claims that they know the Truth, despite an absence of any empirical evidence, and who also claims that it would be impossible for them to be wrong...!?

 

[biggles53]

Yes I am aware. OK.. Take it with animals. Its just as impossible to have happened by unguided CHANCE. By random actions just falling in place in a manner that even a genius could not have thought of. In your world, genius is inferior to nothingness.

For the 1000th time......evolution does NOT occur due to "unguided CHANCE"....!

 

[lasthero]

One thing I learned from working with people from around the country. If someone has a strong accent to you? You have a strong accent to them. Arrogance works the same way.

The mentality of a third grader.

 

[GenemZ]

Excuse me...?

Who is the arrogant one....the person who makes a tentative explanation based upon the evidence he has observed, but concedes that his explanation may be wrong or require refinement.....OR.....the person who claims that they know the Truth, despite an absence of any empirical evidence, and who also claims that it would be impossible for them to be wrong...!?

Maybe my fault is impatience. For I have faced years of obviously arrogant people promoting TOE. After a while, when the same old cut and paste answers appear, I just become impatient... waiting for someone to think for themselves outside of the peer built box. Logically, using reason to head back to the alleged beginning.

What evolutionists promote could have happened. But, only with a living intelligence being there in the beginning to put all things into motion.

To insist on assuming it all could have possibly just began by random chance? Its not logical when you see the complexity that even a single cell creature has microscopically. It makes no sense to believe it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Like Intelligent Design has no evidence?

None what so ever?

Hard to say, really, it depends on what you consider intelligent design. ID of the sort in the bible doesn't have much evidence to support it and has a lot of evidence against it. Intelligent design suggesting guided evolution or the planting of the first microbes on earth is more plausible and has less evidence against it, but doesn't require the "designer" to be a deity (before anyone mentions it, I will, yes aliens, and I will be the first to say that this is not what I believe to be true, I just find it more plausible then the literal creation suggested by the bible).