Why people hate Calvinism so much?

[J0SHUA]

Poor Calvinists. Hated for all the same reasons as Lutherans, but everybody knows who you are, while nobody knows we exist.

Hahaha thank you for your sympathy towards us unwanted Calvinists.

 

[stenerson]

Most Christians I engage with concerning the doctrines of grace react predictably. They claim this would make God "unfair" by not giving everyone the same shot at salvation. This is why Arminianism often move into a liberal views of salvation such as "Hindus, Muslims etc. can be saved, in Christ and not know it." This stemming from the assumption that everyone gets the same shot at redemption whether or not they've been privileged to hear the gospel.
I was raised in a hyper-Arminian church. Had to watch your step or else you might lose it.
I didn't get angry when I was first shown the doctrine of election. I got very depressed and scared wondering if I would never get a winning lottery ticket. But once faced with the doctrine it was too clear for me to deny it. With time I came to realize that it is used in scripture as a very comforting doctrine.. The world simply scoffed at it or blasphemes against it.

 

[jamantc]

Most Christians I engage with concerning the doctrines of grace react predictably. They claim this would make God "unfair" by not giving everyone the same shot at salvation. This is why Arminianism often move into a liberal views of salvation such as "Hindus, Muslims etc. can be saved, in Christ and not know it." This stemming from the assumption that everyone gets the same shot at redemption whether or not they've been privileged to hear the gospel.
I was raised in a hyper-Arminian church. Had to watch your step or else you might lose it.
I didn't get angry when I was first shown the doctrine of election. I got very depressed and scared wondering if I would never get a winning lottery ticket. But once faced with the doctrine it was too clear for me to deny it. With time I came to realize that it is used in scripture as a very comforting doctrine.. The world simply scoffed at it or blasphemes against it.

Same thing here, but I was 10 in a fully extreme Arminian church with lots of questions that no one could answer that matched scripture. I was too young to be depressed. As I got older I embraced it. I figured if I understood it at 10 then God had already showed me the truth. I am the only member of my family (other than my wife and children) who has embraced the doctrines of grace according to scripture. All I can say is God is awesome and those that are His know His voice, no matter their age

 

[saintboniface]

I would guess the arrogance of Calvinists might feed this condition. Its odd that all Calvinists just happen to be elected. And it probably has something to do with them being Dutch. Remember the Austin Powers movie where someone says "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch." I'm just answering the question of why people might feel this way.

 

[stenerson]

I would guess the arrogance of Calvinists might feed this condition. Its odd that all Calvinists just happen to be elected. And it probably has something to do with them being Dutch. Remember the Austin Powers movie where someone says "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch." I'm just answering the question of why people might feel this way.

Are you an Arminian believer and a Christian? Do Arminian Christians believe that they are elect?

If no, then how can they be saved since only the elect will be saved?

If yes does that mean that they are arrogant?

 

[lesliedellow]

Because they have the instinctive response, "It's not fair."

Unfortunately, that kind of instinctual response tells you nothing about whether or not it is true, and the philosophical and biblical reasons for thinking it is true are both good.

Even amongst so called "Bible Believers," emotion can easily take precedence over the Bible.

And saintboniface might want to consult Thomas Aquinas on the subject of predestination. He will find his views no more palatable than those of Calvin. It isn't quite true that you can't get a cigarette paper between them, but they are very similar.

 

[twin1954]

The problem isn't that the Arminian thinks that God's sovereign election is unfair, that is just an argument that they come up with, but that it takes their own salvation out of their hands and will and puts them in the dust at the feet of a sovereign God. That they cannot allow. They must have a part in their own salvation and must keep their own "right" to decide whether they will let God save them.

St Boniface, if you have ever met an arrogant Calvinist you have never actually met a Calvinist. Election properly understood never makes the sinner arrogant but humbles him.

 

[JM]

...if you have ever met an arrogant Calvinist you have never actually met a Calvinist. Election properly understood never makes the sinner arrogant but humbles him.

tweeted!

 

[JustAsIam77]

The problem isn't that the Arminian thinks that God's sovereign election is unfair, that is just an argument that they come up with, but that it takes their own salvation out of their hands and will and puts them in the dust at the feet of a sovereign God. That they cannot allow. They must have a part in their own salvation and must keep their own "right" to decide whether they will let God save them.

St Boniface, if you have ever met an arrogant Calvinist you have never actually met a Calvinist. Election properly understood never makes the sinner arrogant but humbles him.

I absolutely agree, very well said.

 

[saintboniface]

Are you an Arminian believer and a Christian? Do Arminian Christians believe that they are elect?

If no, then how can they be saved since only the elect will be saved?

If yes does that mean that they are arrogant?

I don't believe God predestines anyone to Hell. When I say predestine I mean predetermine. That is, God allows men to freely choose Hell. If that makes me an Arminian so be it. I don't think it is arrogant to be working out one's salvation with fear and trembling. Not knowing whether one will have eternal life or not is not arrogant.

Why will the Apostles sit on the thrones in God's kingdom judging the twelve tribes of Israel? What is there to judge if God already chose who will have eternal life and who will be cast into Hell?

 

[saintboniface]

Because they have the instinctive response, "It's not fair."

Unfortunately, that kind of instinctual response tells you nothing about whether or not it is true, and the philosophical and biblical reasons for thinking it is true are both good.

Even amongst so called "Bible Believers," emotion can easily take precedence over the Bible.

And saintboniface might want to consult Thomas Aquinas on the subject of predestination. He will find his views no more palatable than those of Calvin. It isn't quite true that you can't get a cigarette paper between them, but they are very similar.

You may know more Aquinas than me. Whether your statement is true or not it is somewhat irrelevant because Aquinas, though very esteemed, doesn't decide Church teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that no man is predetermined to Hell. Yes, God knows ahead of time what men will go to Hell and what ones will not, but He does not cause any man to go to Hell.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I don't believe God predestines anyone to Hell. When I say predestine I mean predetermine. That is, God allows men to freely choose Hell. If that makes me an Arminian so be it. I don't think it is arrogant to be working out one's salvation with fear and trembling. Not knowing whether one will have eternal life or not is not arrogant.

Why will the Apostles sit on the thrones in God's kingdom judging the twelve tribes of Israel? What is there to judge if God already chose who will have eternal life and who will be cast into Hell?

It certainly doesn't make you an Arminian. Lutherans believe God predestines people to heaven, but that people go to hell of their own free will. There's a middle position.

However, from both a Lutheran and Calvinist perspective, I think the judging role of the apostles and of Christ at the end of days has more to do with meeting out punishment than any actual weighing of the scales. There's work to be done by both the court and the wider justice system after the judge or jury has made their ruling.

 

[saintboniface]

It certainly doesn't make you an Arminian. Lutherans believe God predestines people to heaven, but that people go to hell of their own free will. There's a middle position.

However, from both a Lutheran and Calvinist perspective, I think the judging role of the apostles and of Christ at the end of days has more to do with meeting out punishment than any actual weighing of the scales. There's work to be done by both the court and the wider justice system after the judge or jury has made their ruling.

Thank you. I believe that is the Catholic position too. There are numerous mentions of election in the bible and I think that is how the Church handles them.

There are plenty of other judgement passages in the bible. Most of Jesus' parables have to do with performing works and being judged on the works performed (parable of talents, etc). Parables about staying awake. Why must we stay awake if we are already elected or not elected? Matthew 25:31 God will separate the goats from the sheep. Enter through the narrow gate - why would Jesus even mention this if there was no choice?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Thank you. I believe that is the Catholic position too. There are numerous mentions of election in the bible and I think that is how the Church handles them.

There are plenty of other judgement passages in the bible. Most of Jesus' parables have to do with performing works and being judged on the works performed (parable of talents, etc). Parables about staying awake. Why must we stay awake if we are already elected or not elected? Matthew 25:31 God will separate the goats from the sheep. Enter through the narrow gate - why would Jesus even mention this if there was no choice?

As a Lutheran, I believe that salvation can be lost, even though it is given without any assent of the will (that is, through unconditional predestination). So I tend to take these parables in a similar way as Catholics do- we believe that Jesus is warning us against falling away- but also in a similar way to Calvinists- we believe that no choice is involved in being saved.

I'd hate to answer for them, therefore, and I'd like to see a variety of Calvinist replies, if that isn't asking too much of everyone on here.

 

[JM]

Calvinists do not deny our need to have faith, enduring faith, faith that lasts until the end of our lives. This is called perseverance of the saints.

"This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof." London Baptist Confession, 1689

We deny that we are saved because of our faith, rather, we are saved through faith because of Christ alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGqMn0ph3Q0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQKdj-dzIw&list=UUdDK-r9YRKXPPmwYNAz5xOA

 

[JustAsIam77]

You may know more Aquinas than me. Whether your statement is true or not it is somewhat irrelevant because Aquinas, though very esteemed, doesn't decide Church teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that no man is predetermined to Hell. Yes, God knows ahead of time what men will go to Hell and what ones will not, but He does not cause any man to go to Hell.

Please read and try to understand the Divine Sovereignty of God, He owes no one an apology for His actions which may be regarded as 'unfair' to some.

"Unconditional Election: REPROBATION" by Loraine Boettner

 

[lesliedellow]

You may know more Aquinas than me. Whether your statement is true or not it is somewhat irrelevant because Aquinas, though very esteemed, doesn't decide Church teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that no man is predetermined to Hell. Yes, God knows ahead of time what men will go to Hell and what ones will not, but He does not cause any man to go to Hell.

I seem to know more about Catholic doctrine than you, because, unusually for the Catholic Church, it doesn't lay down the law on the subject. Catholics are free to follow either the teachings of either Aquinas or Molina - although the latter is regarded as preferable.

 

[cubanito]

as a member of the PCA who does not hate Calvinism or Calvinists it is my experience that the harshest, most ad hominem, least informed comments I have received have been on this board when I have sought to discuss non-Rfeormed viewpoints I hold, like a "mild" form of dispensationalism. Also I have experienced similar attitudes from several PCA pastors, though not all. As to TULIP. the one pastor who took the time to listent to me says I am a classical van Tilian. So I do not say as one who rejects all aspects of Calvinism.

In my very limited experience, one of the main reasons that many people hate Calvinism is because so many Reformed are jerks.

JR

 

[JustAsIam77]

as a member of the PCA who does not hate Calvinism or Calvinists it is my experience that the harshest, most ad hominem, least informed comments I have received have been on this board when I have sought to discuss non-Rfeormed viewpoints I hold, like a "mild" form of dispensationalism. Also I have experienced similar attitudes from several PCA pastors, though not all. As to TULIP. the one pastor who took the time to listent to me says I am a classical van Tilian. So I do not say as one who rejects all aspects of Calvinism.

In my very limited experience, one of the main reasons that many people hate Calvinism is because so many Reformed are jerks.

JR

I'm hybrid Reformed and Dispy, you will get no argument from me brother.

 

[cubanito]

JustAs-as-you-are77, have you also experienced hostility from those holding Covenant Theology as well?

JR