Why people hate Calvinism so much?

[Metal Minister]

Uh yeah. Sin (missing the mark, error) would include actions by yourself that cause pain to another person or involves deception and dishonesty.

Ummm. Yes.

Yay?!

Sure sin can be evil. Evil is just a strong word. Not waving at someone who lets you into traffic because you are rushed, in a bad mood and late for work could also be sin, but I wouldn't say that's evil. Sin is less what we do wrong and more what we don't do right.

Not waving to someone in traffic isn't a sin. Anything that separates us from God is evil. Yes, all sin is evil. We may make distinctions between the level of a sin, but God does not. All sin is evil in His eyes.

 

[twin1954]

Not waving to someone in traffic isn't a sin. Anything that separates us from God is evil. Yes, all sin is evil. We may make distinctions between the level of a sin, but God does not. All sin is evil in His eyes.

While I would agree that all sin is evil as the Lord said in Gen. 6:6 that every imagination of the thoughts of the heart are evil and that continually I would disagree that God treats all sin as the same. In the Law there are different retributions for different sins. Some required death and others didn't. The Lord Jesus said that it will be more tolerable for Sodom in that day than for those of His generation who did not believe Him. There are degrees of evil and sin. There are other references that I can't recall off the top of my head right now as well that show that there will be degrees of punishment.


Also the evil that we do is not all categorized as sin though sin is often used in the generic sense to cover all the evil that we do. Sin is missing the mark, iniquity is what it sounds like: inequity, and transgression is breaking the Law. Each has a different aspect of the evil that is man and each has its own distinct evil.


But praise be to the Lord that there is forgiveness with Him and His mercy endures forever. The Lord Jesus was made to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 2Cor. 5:21

 

[twin1954]

Haha. An ignorance fest of religious fruit loops. I've been wondering if it's atheists that mostly hate Calvinism, but I doubt an atheist would explore Christianity into reformed theology. It would make sense though, since they expect "having a loving God" to mean we should live in a blissful fairyland.

It isn't atheists who hate Calvinism they just hate any mention of God. It is the religious "Christians" who hate the truth of God. It wasn't atheists who nailed the Lord to that cursed tree it was the religious leaders who thought they were doing God a favor. It will not be the atheist who persecute and seek to destroy but those of your own household who claim to be believers. Religion has taught us to think that the world are those who do not profess faith but the world are those who do, the rest are just heathens. Satan wants folks to join churches and live like believers and be zealous for false religion called 'Christianity" and seek to destroy the truth of God. 2Cor. 11:15 The danger isn't from Islam or Budhist or whatever false religion it is from the false religion called Christianity. You will never experience the utter hatred against you from anyone more than from those who claim to be your brothers.

 

[Unix]

I agree. I've been waiting to see if there is any Church I want to join, and I'm clinging to my freedom to choose which Church to attend. My parents would like me to attend certain Churches. I also have a long way to go to most Churches by bus - I'm trying to save money for a "moped"-car (about the same size as an ordinary car but with highest gears taken out and revolution restriction, the insurance and tax for such a car is many times lower than for an ordinary car) - that would help going to Church - it may take close to 10 years to buy it because I will probably buy some books too - I'm researching Christianity by myself:

Satan wants folks to join churches and live like believers and be zealous for false religion called 'Christianity" and seek to destroy the truth of God. 2Cor. 11:15 The danger isn't from Islam or Budhist or whatever false religion it is from the false religion called Christianity. You will never experience the utter hatred against you from anyone more than from those who claim to be your brothers.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

It isn't atheists who hate Calvinism they just hate any mention of God.

Actually it's not god atheists have a problem with, it's the GOD of the Bible the God of Christianity they tend to have particular hatred for, and I can understand why.

It is the religious "Christians" who hate the truth of God.

Not according to Scripture, it reaches far beyond mere religious Christians. All non-believers hate the truth of God, and it is pure grace that any should love the "truth of God" as you say. "Religious Christians" love the Bible, it is obvious from Bible sales, what they do not love is the true interpretation of Scripture, correct? Is that what you mean?

It wasn't atheists who nailed the Lord to that cursed tree it was the religious leaders who thought they were doing God a favor.

True, they instigated it, however, a non-believer was in the midst of the disciples and betrayed our Lord.

It will not be the atheist who persecute and seek to destroy but those of your own household who claim to be believers.

Persecution, another long discussion, while there is a grain of truth in what you say, atheists do seek to persecute Christians, but I know, you do not get involved. Non-believers of every stripe can and are part of Christian persecution. If you want to see some real persecution, go to China and try preaching the Gospel, or go to a country where Islam is the dominant religion and try preaching the true Gospel of Christ. Perhaps it would shed some light and give perspective.

Religion has taught us to think that the world are those who do not profess faith but the world are those who do, the rest are just heathens.

But we know there is more to faith than the kind of profession even demons can make, huh?

Satan wants folks to join churches and live like believers and be zealous for false religion called 'Christianity" and seek to destroy the truth of God. 2Cor. 11:15 The danger isn't from Islam or Budhist or whatever false religion it is from the false religion called Christianity. You will never experience the utter hatred against you from anyone more than from those who claim to be your brothers.

I must say, I really do not like how you called "Christianity" false. I believe what you mean is false Christianity is false, but maybe I am a stickler for precision, since precision and truth go hand in hand.

The irony of the last sentence...I can feel that just browsing the "Trinity Foundation" website, as a Van Tillian, the hatred for anything or anyone holding anything other than a tee-total Clarkian view. Nothing grieves me more than hatred from my brothers, my true brothers in Christ. All danger is from Satan, and it is his influence within the Calvinist camp (actually 'outside the camp' but profess to be within the camp) that concerns me the most, that I want to particularly be on guard against.

 

[twin1954]

Actually it's not god atheists have a problem with, it's the GOD of the Bible the God of Christianity they tend to have particular hatred for, and I can understand why.

They have the same problem that all unbelievers have, a rebellious heart. They will not submit to the rule of God in Christ. BTW there is no such thing as an atheist there are only those who claim to be atheists. Rom. 1:18-23

Not according to Scripture, it reaches far beyond mere religious Christians. All non-believers hate the truth of God, and it is pure grace that any should love the "truth of God" as you say. "Religious Christians" love the Bible, it is obvious from Bible sales, what they do not love is the true interpretation of Scripture, correct? Is that what you mean?

No, what I mean is that those professing faith hate God as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures. It isn't a matter of interpretation it is a matter of submission. While they love the Bible, at least how they read into it, they hate the God it reveals. It is a matter of who is God not how we interpret Scripture. That is the root of the problem and if we are to deal with them we must deal with them at the root. Having been a builder most of my life I can tell you that you must get the foundation right or everything you build on it will be wrong.

True, they instigated it, however, a non-believer was in the midst of the disciples and betrayed our Lord.

He was a Jew just like the rest of the religious leaders of that generation in that region who hated Christ Jesus and feared to loose their power and influence. They acted just like the religious "Christians" today do by not wanting to give up that which they didn't really have to begin with. The Jews of the Old Testament and the New are analogous to "Christianity"( used in the generic) today. They want to bear the name of God but hate God. That is why they shape for themselves a god they can worship and call it Jesus. The golden calf that the people danced around at the mountain they called Jehovah.

Persecution, another long discussion, while there is a grain of truth in what you say, atheists do seek to persecute Christians, but I know, you do not get involved. Non-believers of every stripe can and are part of Christian persecution. If you want to see some real persecution, go to China and try preaching the Gospel, or go to a country where Islam is the dominant religion and try preaching the true Gospel of Christ. Perhaps it would shed some light and give perspective.

It is true that persecution in the from of physical harm and death is rampant around the world and I have never denied that. But that form of persecution isn't nearly as dangerous as the more subtle form that comes from those whom we call brothers and who call themselves our brothers. I suspect that you have never experienced the utter desire to kill you from one who claims to be a "Christian" just for telling them about who God is according to the Bible. I have many times. I often get the same reaction that the Apostles got when they preached the Gospel, folks either believed or they wanted to kill them.

As far as me getting involved you are mistaken. I get involved every time God gives me opportunity to preach His Gospel. I don't target "atheists" though and I don't waste my time debating things with fools. I take a different view of what "apologetics" is than most of this religious world. The simple fact is that if you can debate what you believe then what you believe is debatable.

But we know there is more to faith than the kind of profession even demons can make, huh?

You didn't read the reference did you? Of course there is more to faith than just assent to facts. Faith rests totally and completely outside of self and in the person and work of Christ alone.

I must say, I really do not like how you called "Christianity" false.

What passes for Christianity in this generation is false. If you refuse to recognize that fact I make no apologies.

I believe what you mean is false Christianity is false, but maybe I am a stickler for precision, since precision and truth go hand in hand.

I think you just wanted to stir up a little dust and used my use of the word to do it.

The irony of the last sentence...I can feel that just browsing the "Trinity Foundation" website, as a Van Tillian, the hatred for anything or anyone holding anything other than a tee-total Clarkian view. Nothing grieves me more than hatred from my brothers, my true brothers in Christ. All danger is from Satan, and it is his influence within the Calvinist camp (actually 'outside the camp' but profess to be within the camp) that concerns me the most, that I want to particularly be on guard against.

Just visit the soteriology room to get a firsthand grasp of that truth.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Just visit the soteriology room to get a firsthand grasp of that truth.

Amen brother.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

They have the same problem that all unbelievers have, a rebellious heart. They will not submit to the rule of God in Christ. BTW there is no such thing as an atheist there are only those who claim to be atheists. Rom. 1:18-23

yes, and I know.

No, what I mean is that those professing faith hate God as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.

Ok, so we're on the same page...

It isn't a matter of interpretation it is a matter of submission.

yes I agree authority, the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue for all varieties of non-believers. What I meant in the question about interpretation is that non-believers will take a low view of Scripture and interpret Scripture with humanistic principals according to the principals of the world, and create a god of their own making, their vain imagination, that suits their liking. Non-believers do read Scripture, and any time we read Scripture, interpretation is involved, you know that.

While they love the Bible, at least how they read into it, they hate the God it reveals.

Exactly the point of my question about interpretation.

It is a matter of who is God not how we interpret Scripture.

And we know more specifics about who God is how? By reading Scripture, and the Holy Spirit illuminating our understanding, which involves our mind, mental processes and methods leading to an interpretation. The problem is not with the process of interpretation, the problem for us, as creatures, is coming to that one true interpretation, especially Scripture which is not literal. The historical narratives, Mosaic law, genealogies, etc. are literal, where the poetry, proverbs, prophecy, and parables etc. are not so much.

That is the root of the problem and if we are to deal with them we must deal with them at the root. Having been a builder most of my life I can tell you that you must get the foundation right or everything you build on it will be wrong.

Sounds kinda Van Tilish.

He was a Jew just like the rest of the religious leaders of that generation in that region who hated Christ Jesus and feared to loose their power and influence. They acted just like the religious "Christians" today do by not wanting to give up that which they didn't really have to begin with. The Jews of the Old Testament and the New are analogous to "Christianity"( used in the generic) today. They want to bear the name of God but hate God. That is why they shape for themselves a god they can worship and call it Jesus. The golden calf that the people danced around at the mountain they called Jehovah.

All we can do is trust God, the situation is in His sovereign hands. There have always been religious people, and will be until the Lord comes and cleans house. Being made in the image of God, man is inescapably religious. Even the humanist claiming no religions makes the creature an idol of worship, even nature worship in the shrine of evolution bowing before the idol of scientism. Personally, religious folks do not bother me nearly as much as the zealous nuts who create organizations, hold conventions and rallies promoting atheism/agnosticism/skepticism. What is it that motivates them? If they really believed life ends at the grave why would they put so much effort into trying to convince others of their view? Many of them have a chip on the shoulder because they had religion once, and angry over the years of time, effort, and money they put into religion, what a waste! Evangelizing such people is nearly a complete waste of time. In the case of religious people, all hope is not lost, remember the story from John about the Pharisee that came and visited Jesus at night? Yes he was a religious man, but he was different from the others. Perhaps one of the most religious men of all, Saul/Paul, God converted, and used mightily!

It is true that persecution in the from of physical harm and death is rampant around the world and I have never denied that. But that form of persecution isn't nearly as dangerous as the more subtle form that comes from those whom we call brothers and who call themselves our brothers.

I disagree. So long as true Christians live, counterfeit Christianity can be countered with the true Gospel of Christ. If all true Christians were to be killed, there would be no real counter to false Gospels. Maybe I am being contentious at this point, maybe you're right. With a wife and child, danger is a place I try to avoid, so I feel my words have little weight on the subject.

I suspect that you have never experienced the utter desire to kill you from one who claims to be a "Christian" just for telling them about who God is according to the Bible. I have many times. I often get the same reaction that the Apostles got when they preached the Gospel, folks either believed or they wanted to kill them.

I do not know the desires of peoples hearts. I know in the past, I have had that experience with non-Christians.

As far as me getting involved you are mistaken. I get involved every time God gives me opportunity to preach His Gospel. I don't target "atheists" though and I don't waste my time debating things with fools.

I suspect you are the better man, at some point, I decided to just keep my mouth shut for the most part.

I take a different view of what "apologetics" is than most of this religious world. The simple fact is that if you can debate what you believe then what you believe is debatable.

All of this religious world rejects the view of apologetics I subscribe to, and the view of apologetics I subscribe to rejects all of this religious world.

What passes for Christianity in this generation is false.

I wholeheartedly agree.

If you refuse to recognize that fact I make no apologies. I think you just wanted to stir up a little dust and used my use of the word to do it.

Not really, I had similar thoughts about your post I initially responded to.

Just visit the soteriology room to get a firsthand grasp of that truth.

I try to do more than visit when/as I can am so moved/inclined.

 

[Faith In God]

I know most people hate it because they want their happy free will but is it more than that? Some Arminians and Synergists believe that the Reformed theology is evil. Apparently believing in the countless references and biblical teachings to man's depravity and election in the New Testament makes you a filthy evil Calvinist. A huge ignorance fest, as theologian James White would say.

Look at this picture. I know the Bible says we will be persecuted for our beliefs, but dang. This is just a shame.

...
I'm sorry, this is funny.

 

[J0SHUA]

...
I'm sorry, this is funny.

Haha it is man.

 

[Metal Minister]

...
I'm sorry, this is funny.

Haha it is man.

Can I ask what's so funny?

 

[J0SHUA]

Can I ask what's so funny?

I can't speak for "Faith In God" but I find the picture I included to be humorous.

 

[Faith In God]

Can I ask what's so funny?

If I were to replace "Calvinists" with "Americans" in this photo (of which I am one), and still found it funny, would you understand the humor without feeling like I'm belittling another group of people?

 

[Metal Minister]

If I were to replace "Calvinists" with "Americans" in this photo (of which I am one), and still found it funny, would you understand the humor without feeling like I'm belittling another group of people?

No, I guess I still don't understand.....

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Isn't sin just 'missing the mark'? Error?

It's a mockery of the Holiness of God. Sin is often selfish, often about self, all while the chief purpose of man is to glorify God. Sin is irreverent showing no fear of the Lord, no concern for the purposes of God. It's far more than just missing the mark or error, and as you probably know, the efforts which are made to minimize sin and maximize self.

 

[gord44]

It's a mockery of the Holiness of God. Sin is often selfish, often about self, all while the chief purpose of man is to glorify God. Sin is irreverent showing no fear of the Lord, no concern for the purposes of God. It's far more than just missing the mark or error, and as you probably know, the efforts which are made to minimize sin and maximize self.

You put it well.

I suppose though that 'missing the mark' could be a good way to put it too as it is shown that the mark is really not possible for one to hit. Catch my drift? And I think sin is hebrew is 'missing the target' or something.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

You put it well.

I suppose though that 'missing the mark' could be a good way to put it too as it is shown that the mark is really not possible for one to hit. Catch my drift? And I think sin is hebrew is 'missing the target' or something.

I know little about Hebrew language and cultural background. In our day "missing the mark" is too often spoken in a flippant manner followed by some sort of excuse or attempt at self-justification, kind of like "well, nobody's perfect" or "who hasn't sinned?"...these miss the mark of what sin is and aim to shed responsibility. And I am as guilty as anybody of making those kinds of remarks, which seem to originate from the sin of pride. Good point about the mark not possible to hit, not in self, nor while living in the flesh.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

I know little about Hebrew language and cultural background. In our day "missing the mark" is too often spoken in a flippant manner followed by some sort of excuse or attempt at self-justification, kind of like "well, nobody's perfect" or "who hasn't sinned?"...these miss the mark of what sin is and aim to shed responsibility. And I am as guilty as anybody of making those kinds of remarks, which seem to originate from the sin of pride. Good point about the mark not possible to hit, not in self, nor while living in the flesh.

That is what Paul referred to as the 'curse of the Law'.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I know little about Hebrew language and cultural background. In our day "missing the mark" is too often spoken in a flippant manner followed by some sort of excuse or attempt at self-justification, kind of like "well, nobody's perfect" or "who hasn't sinned?"...these miss the mark of what sin is and aim to shed responsibility. And I am as guilty as anybody of making those kinds of remarks, which seem to originate from the sin of pride. Good point about the mark not possible to hit, not in self, nor while living in the flesh.

The law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. Rom 4:15

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Poor Calvinists. Hated for all the same reasons as Lutherans, but everybody knows who you are, while nobody knows we exist.