A paradigm shift

[Frogster]

in other words, your focusing is at the center, as it seems by your wordage.

i know there are texts that read or say that which you speak of, but in the end, i think it best to release all effort to him, in the weakness births the power, not my focussing.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

well again, you put it all on you, when you said we focus...

so what happens if we don't focus, no growth?

se what I mean? if your focussing is the center, that is your will at the steering wheel.

So you believe that we are all mindless robots who have no ability to think or act for ourselves? Why then are we judged on the things we did, on our works as Christians, if God does them for us? We have to cooperate with grace for grace to be effective in our lives. This is just but one way, a MAJOR way, to do so... Paul mentions it in Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Colossians, and perhaps others, but those are some of his major works! Surely he thought it was an important element to the Christian walk, so should we.

Surely you don't think God's grace is so extensively that He controls our every thought and whim like we are all string puppets that God controls from Heaven (like Pinnochio). Even Paul said bring every thought under obedience to Christ(2 Corinthians 10:5) If they were that way because Christ makes them so then why would Paul so to do it? Kind of redundant and pointless don't ya think?

 

[Frogster]

it's the death life principle here..

2 cor 4:11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death is at work in us, but life in you.

that spread the gospel.


15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

which as you know is elaborated on more in chapter 12, power in weakness, glory in the sufferings, those of chapoter 11.

Paul was pressed down in asia, beyond life, trusting not in his tools, focusing, fasting, praying, but in God who raises the dead, that bees us.

 

[Frogster]

So you believe that we are all mindless robots who have no ability to think or act for ourselves? Why then are we judged on the things we did, on our works as Christians, if God does them for us? We have to cooperate with grace for grace to be effective in our lives. This is just but one way, a MAJOR way, to do so... Paul mentions it in Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Colossians, and perhaps others, but those are some of his major works! Surely he thought it was an important element to the Christian walk, so should we.

Surely you don't think God's grace is so extensively that He controls our every thought and whim like we are all string puppets that God controls from Heaven (like Pinnochio). Even Paul said bring every thought under obedience to Christ(2 Corinthians 10:5) If they were that way because Christ makes them so then why would Paul so to do it? Kind of redundant and pointless don't ya think?

well, he was not talking about his own thoughts in 2 Cor 10, it was thier thoughts, the false apostles, and the wayward ones..their obedience was at issue, according to the surrounding context.
Paul was not coming to corinth to take down his own arguments.

well, lets see...

why was paul so successful, was it the weakness, or his tools of self strength?

 

[Frogster]

then we have to wonder what it means to get our minds on Christ above? God displayed Paul in to the weakness arena. So getting his mind on Christ, meant getting in tuned with weakness, not his own tools, they were useless alot of times, death at work in Paul, was having the mind of Christ.



1 cor 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute.

 

[turned around]

Hi,
Weakness is a beautiful thing in the kingdom of his dear Son.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Frog, I am not advocating works of self... I don't know how else to express that to you...

I re-read 2 Corinthians 10 just for reclarification and I notice Paul uses that pesky word, "we" there.... If I were to say, we are having a discussion, that means me and you correct? or me and my party... but we includes the person of whom the term is used by...

So when Paul says we take captive every thought and bring it under obedience to Christ, he is including himself in that...

 

[Frogster]

Hi,
Weakness is a beautiful thing in the kingdom of his dear Son.

so that no flesh can boast.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

then we have to wonder what it means to get our minds on Christ above? God displayed Paul in to the weakness arena. So getting his mind on Christ, meant getting in tuned with weakness, not his own tools, they were useless alot of times, death at work in Paul, was having the mind of Christ.



1 cor 4:9 For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are held in honor, but we in disrepute.

As I said in my OP and I'll let Paul explain it himself...

1 Thes 5:16-18
16Rejoice always, 17pray continually, 18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

Just as he and Silas did in the Philippian jail in Acts 16 when the foundation was shaken.....

 

[Frogster]

Frog, I am not advocating works of self... I don't know how else to express that to you...

I re-read 2 Corinthians 10 just for reclarification and I notice Paul uses that pesky word, "we" there.... If I were to say, we are having a discussion, that means me and you correct? or me and my party... but we includes the person of whom the term is used by...

So when Paul says we take captive every thought and bring it under obedience to Christ, he is including himself in that...

the "we" was about his comrades, look whose obedience was the issue, those of whom arguments were to be destroyed upon his coming there.

we/they, destoryed others arguments.. punish their disobedience, not his own. How could he destroy his own arguments?


5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.

same here, against the false apostles, not himself. They said Paul was in the flesh, that is whose arguments he was coming to take down.


2 I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh.

 

[Frogster]

As I said in my OP and I'll let Paul explain it himself...

1 Thes 5:16-18
16Rejoice always, 17pray continually, 18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

Just as he and Silas did in the Philippian jail in Acts 16 when the foundation was shaken.....

in other words, how could he come there to take down his own arguments?

more in 13, it was about them, not Paul, their thoughs, their philosophies.

10 For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

he was fighting them in 10-13, not himself. The false gospel teachers, their pride, the sinners in the church. Them, their thoughts and disobedience.

 

[turned around]

Hi,
I believe the KJV nails it to the obedience of Christ. Arguments and lofty positions submit to Christ's obedience.

Grace to you.

 

[Frogster]

going to bed, nighty night, see ya tomorrow.




Punish YOUR, not himself, not his thoughts at play, not punishing himself.


2 Cor 10:6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.


It is military wordage there in early 10, butresses or something like that, paul was coming to fight, hoped he did not have to, did not want to, but was ready too.

 

[Frogster]

Hi,
I believe the KJV nails it to the obedience of Christ. Arguments and lofty positions submit to Christ's obedience.

Grace to you.

wel..yep, paul was going to make sure they did too!

nighty night.

 

[Frogster]

one more quickie, he had to exert this>>



113:0 For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

It would be silly of Paul to act submissive to the dominate false apostles, he had to let them know he was ready for the challenge, there is no reason for him to use his authority against himself, his obedience or teachings were fine, it was their offense to be dealt with at corinth.

 

[Frogster]

i can't resist one more...

here is a verse that sets the stage for the challenge against those who insulted paul..


the insult..


10 For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account.”


the rebuttal, for the future arguments.



11 Let such a person understand that what we say by letter when absent, we do when present.

So the fight was against the false apostles that mocked Paul weakness, all of which he boasted in, his true power, so the false aopostles boasted in their great oratory skills, while they mocked Paul's personna..but he lets them know, he can and will be tough in person, if need be, tough in letters and in person, all set for that fight, against thier arguments, taking down thier lofty ways.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Haha Froggie are you an AOG minister? I've known quite a few who say they are about to close their sermons about 5 times before they actually do so.

I don't see things the way you do, I just hope the message reaches those who will accept it.... God bless!

 

[gideons300]

These are the very words of Paul (with English translation of course)

Romans 8:5-8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Everyone, how can that be misconstrued? It really is that plain!

Those who live by the flesh have their minds set on the flesh! Those in this condition can not please God and are hostile to Him!

Those who live by the Spirit have their minds set on the Spirit! Those in this condition have life and peace!

How is this an improper or wrong teaching? How can this be improved upon? I am simply re-emphasizing something I felt strongly the Lord wanted me to.

Colossians 3:1-3
3 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

This is possible for all who believe! We have the mind of Christ in us! That is a birth right of the Spirit! (1 Corinthians 2:16)

You must believe this! It really is that simple! Immerse yourself in the Spirit, in the heavenly, in the Father and Son! Be consumed with Him! It is that simple not because our minds accomplish it, but the focus of our thoughts does.

Actually. I do not think it is as plain as how many interpret that scripture.

When most read that, their thought processes is....

Ok, if I focus on the Spirit, I will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and so, they try to focus on the Spirit...until they lose focus.Then guess what happens? They fall back into sin.

I believe what must....MUST... first happen, is that we must cross over Jordan, plant our flag of independance from the flesh, and truly appropriate our new nature. If we do not, then we see our setting our minds on things above as a work, whether or not we mean to. If it is ANYTHING we are called to do, and yet we are in the flesh still by our testimony, it becomes a work.

When we put off the old man, believing that when Jesus died, so did we, and when Jesus arose, so did we, and this becomes our shield of faith and we enter into the good fight of faith..... THEN we can set our affections on things above and not walk in the flesh, and find to our delight that our nature, our NEW nature....it obeys God.

It is one thing for us to "theoretically" discuss how to stop sinning against our God, how to obey God in all things, but I ask this in all humility to all, and none in particular..... have we found this theory workable, practical, foolproof? In the end, unless we are planted across Jordan IN the land of promise, we simply do not have the constitution to walk all day, every day, in the Spirit. We do not have the power to stop sinning by resisting all temptation.

When we cross over Jordan, there is no "reverse", no going in for a week and back out for two. It is DONE. Dead is dead. LOL.

When satan comes accusing us and then tempting us to fall, if, in our heart of hearts we do not KNOW and BELIEVE that we are no longer "just sinners saved by grace", but that God has made us every whit whole, it is just a matter of time before one of the arrows gets through for our shield is not up, and when it does, we do what the flesh by nature does...... we sin.

It is time we combined the one missing ingredient to the blood of the lamb that insures our becoming overcomers.

OUR testimony.

Who do we believe deep inside that we are? Are we dead to sin and alive unto Him? Is the old us dead or is it "in the process of dying"? In the scripture quoted in Collosians 3, do we REALLY believe we have been raised with Christ? The old nature cannot be raised. It must stay DEAD. If faith in what Christ accomplished for ME is not my foundation, my shield of faith when satan attacks, I will fall. WILL. Until we can answer satan's temptations with a shout of faith and quote Galatians 2:20 without flinching, we will mean well, and want to defeat self, but it will become just another lap around Sinai.

The real paradigm shift is that we must FIRST see ourselves as DEAD and with Him now alive in us, causing us to walk in true obedience.

Blessings, dear brother

Gideon

 

[ByTheSpirit]

But gideon, brother what does Paul say in Romans 6?

By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. (Romans 6:2, 3, 6, 11 ESV)

Consider yourselves dead.... Consider is a mental word... If you are considering something that means you are THINKING about it right?

Furthermore Paul says here (as in the whole passge I just shortened it for brevity sake) and even in Colossians 3:1-3 that we DIED with Christ, past tense... It has already happened right? That is why we must consider ourselves dead to the old nature and in the new. It is a frame of mind because we have already been placed in Christ by faith.

Saying I must put off my old nature first before I can think on the Spirit is actually a legalistic way of saying I must accomplish what Christ has already done for me. Paul says that here in Romans 6 even in Colossians 3, when we were joined to Christ we died at that moment to our old nature, we must consider it so before we can walk in that newness of life.

Why do you thinking advertising is so important in society and television markets? Because i you can plant that image of the juicy cheeseburger in the mind of viewers they will want a cheeseburger right? How many times has that happened to us? You watch your favorite team or show and see something advertised and then desire it? It targetting our thought process. The world already knows what Paul was trying to say, what is in the mind affects the actions. It science even. The brain affects behavior.

If I fill my mind with the old nature and its sinful tendencies I will live with incredible temptation. If I fill my mind with things of the Spirit I walk in the newness of life Christ has given me. The problem is remaining focused on Christ because that old nature is powerful and always fighting to come back to life. Just like Peter when he walked on water. When he was mindful of Christ and had his attention on Him, he was fine. When he put his focus on things around him and realized what he was doing (walking on water a humanistic impossible thing) then he sank.

Be mindful of Christ! Think on the Spirit!

 

[Frogster]

Haha Froggie are you an AOG minister? I've known quite a few who say they are about to close their sermons about 5 times before they actually do so.

I don't see things the way you do, I just hope the message reaches those who will accept it.... God bless!

actually i could bloviate more, i was giittiinn tired last night!

nothing wrong with what you say on technically, it's just not supposed to be about making tools be the base, instead of his power, perfected via weakness. It's like when people talke about Paul buffering his body, to support your view.


Well, did Paul preach asceticism? no, not according to col 2, all he was saying was he dragged around his tired beat up body, like anyone might do when tired, like maybe a guy on a construction site after a work day, but that simple truth, should not be turned into a lifelong teaching, turning the gospel into asceticism. So again, on a whole, the power is in us, not walking by mind control. Do people heal by mind, or power?


see ya round, I am going to go and take down my own arguments today.