Not under the law?

[from scratch]

This is not about a sin or particular sin, but mainly to these so called believes that were saved at a young age, but have lived a life that has noting to do with God and goes against most of what Jesus teaches. There are many Christians out there who commit adultery all the time, get drunk all the time, have pre marital sex all the time, and many other things the bible says to not do if you are a believer. So it is basically their lifestyle rather than a sin and repentance to turn away from that sin.

Fine. Go preach to them and leave us alone. We don't need your message. This is part the reason I no longer attend. The constant badgering about sins that weren't and aren't part of my life.

 

[from scratch]

People were saved in the Old Covenant just like in the New Covenant through Faith.

No sir. They didn't possess salvation till after the cross just like me.

 

[SAAN]

Fine. Go preach to them and leave us alone. We don't need your message. This is part the reason I no longer attend. The constant badgering about sins that weren't and aren't part of my life.

Dude dont get your udies in a wad, your the one questioning me and I gave youa response.

You seem to be a big believer of OSAS and that people can live as trhey please after they are saved and suffer no consequences and I am a believer in you must live holy and endure to the end. The second I point out where scriptures say you cannot be saved, yet lived a sinful lifestyle afterwards, you always jump in to question that. What is so bad about reminding people if they are saved, they cant be practicing sexual immorality and stuff like that because they think OSAS. Do many Christians live and do many of the things the bible says not to do? Does the bible not say to help each other? Yet when I say we are to still follow Gods commands, you and many Christians on here are quick to jump in a question that.


Why are you and many Christians on here so against the term "FOLLOW GODS COMMANDS". He says from Gen to Revelation to not live a life of sin and to follow his commands, yet people are so against what God himself demands to his followers. And when I say commands , im not referring to the ceremonial commands and the book of Hebrews says are no longer needed.


And yes if you actually do an unbiased study of what UNDER THE LAW means, it really does mean being under the curse of the law. It would make no sense that Paul would say Gods law is perfect, holy and just and turn around and say it is a curse. We would consider him bipolar if that is what he really believed.
Love God and Love One Another is a sum what God wants of us and if we teach people other wise, we are teaching false doctrine. And how do we love God and One another? By keeping his commands and teaching others to do so. Telling someone not to worship other Gods, dont lie, dont steal, commit sexual immorality, etc is not putting them back under the law. they put themselves under the curse of the law when they dont keep those commands.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Who would want to be under law if they had a choice? The wonderful thing about the gospel is that you do have a choice. No one need be under the law. That's why the gospel tells us that we are no longer under the law.

Romans 6:8-14 8 If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him. 10 As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God. 11 Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus.

12 Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. 13 And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness. 14 For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.
​

 

[Shema Yisrael]

No sir. They didn't possess salvation till after the cross just like me.

You like they are STILL required to have faith in your 'future' salvation. Meaning, you don't possess your salvation any more than they did. You are believing in a promise to come, your future redemption from your body of sin. You 'believe' it has already been accomplished in Messiah. Good, because they also believed it would be accomplished in Messiah. And so lived accordingly to the tests and commands of our Abba.

Grace and Truth were not void before the comming of Messiah, to think that you now have something that was not possible to others. Or is G-d the G-d of the nations only? Our G-d is One, and there is only One way to Him, pre or post Messiah. Or do you believe G-d has forsaken those pre-cross because your false assumption that faith was not imparted to the world before Messiah came in the flesh?

 

[Steeno7]

You like they are STILL required to have faith in your 'future' salvation. Meaning, you don't possess your salvation any more than they did. You are believing in a promise to come, your future redemption from your body of sin. You 'believe' it has already been accomplished in Messiah. Good, because they also believed it would be accomplished in Messiah. And so lived accordingly to the tests and commands of our Abba.

Grace and Truth were not void before the comming of Messiah, to think that you now have something that was not possible to others. Or is G-d the G-d of the nations only? Our G-d is One, and there is only One way to Him, pre or post Messiah. Or do you believe G-d has forsaken those pre-cross because your false assumption that faith was not imparted to the world before Messiah came in the flesh?

Not true. Whereas theirs was a prospective faith, looking ahead to the prospect of a Savior, ours is a settled faith in the reality of the Savior who has come...and who has come to live in us as the Savior. Our salvation is not some hope for the future, as was theirs, ours is a present reality. He has saved us, He is saving us, and He will save us.

 

[Shema Yisrael]

Not true. Whereas theirs was a prospective faith, looking ahead to the prospect of a Savior, ours is a settled faith in the reality of the Savior who has come...and who has come to live in us as the Savior. Our salvation is not some hope for the future, as was theirs, ours is a present reality. He has saved us, He is saving us, and He will save us.

And yet you expressed your 'present' day reality in past and future terms as well?

Romans 8
22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
​

Your (and our) reality is a hope. Just like Yisrael's reality in G-d was a hope in the promises given to them. Or is G-d done with all his promises? You are 'being' saved, and it is proved by the Spirit of G-d within you. You are not saved yet, but in faith you believe in what is not yet seen. Adoption as a son of G-d and the resurrection of your body.

We have been gracefully blessed with the first fruits of the Spirit, but we have NOT attained salvation. We continue to hold faith in the promise.

And, in faith we believe what is not yet seen, the resurrection of Yisrael included.

As far as pre-cross faith, Hebrews 11 explains it perfectly. The people before the cross recieved their commendation, not condemnation for having been born at the wrong time.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. ...............

​

Have you received your full reward yet? Or are you believing in the comming resurrection? What makes you any different than the people of old? Surely not 'faith', because we can see that without it nobody pleases G-d ever. So if the people of old did not have this faith they would have never pleased him. You find that true? G-d was never pleased with Yisrael or the people of old? They could never draw near to G-d because they lacked the proper faith? Scripture proves that is not correct. We have numerous accounts of 'the people of old' being counted as righteous. Even in the NT Zechariah and Simeon should jump out at you in Luke.

​

 

[Steeno7]

And yet you expressed your 'present' day reality in past and future terms as well?

Indeed. What was for them only a future hope, is our present and everlasting reality.

Romans 8
22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
​

Your (and our) reality is a hope. Just like Yisrael's reality in G-d was a hope in the promises given to them. Or is G-d done with all his promises? You are 'being' saved, and it is proved by the Spirit of G-d within you. You are not saved yet, but in faith you believe in what is not yet seen. Adoption as a son of G-d and the resurrection of your body.

We have been gracefully blessed with the first fruits of the Spirit, but we have NOT attained salvation. We continue to hold faith in the promise.

And, in faith we believe what is not yet seen, the resurrection of Yisrael included.

As far as pre-cross faith, Hebrews 11 explains it perfectly. The people before the cross recieved their commendation, not condemnation for having been born at the wrong time.

Christ is our salvation, we have salvation because we have Him.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. ...............

​

Have you received your full reward yet? Or are you believing in the comming resurrection? What makes you any different than the people of old? Surely not 'faith', because we can see that without it nobody pleases G-d ever. So if the people of old did not have this faith they would have never pleased him. You find that true? G-d was never pleased with Yisrael or the people of old? They could never draw near to G-d because they lacked the proper faith? Scripture proves that is not correct. We have numerous accounts of 'the people of old' being counted as righteous. Even in the NT Zechariah and Simeon should jump out at you in Luke.

​

Yes, my reward is complete, I have received Christ, Christ is my reward. In Him I have been given everything. There is nothing that can be added to everything. What makes me different from OT believers is that I have what was for them only future hope. Some have a tendency to project new covenant principles back onto those before the cross. Believing that the grace of God was receivable by faith so as to effect regeneration, salvation, righteousness and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When none of that was possible until after the cross.

 

[Shema Yisrael]

Christ is our salvation, we have salvation because we have Him.

No sir, we have a hope of salvation. We will die because of sin, every man does. We have a first fruit of what is to come. He is not come back, He has left us a comforter, even His Spirit, but He has not fulfilled the act of redemption of our sinful bodies. We have Faith that he has made the way for it to happen. And we walk it out through His power. But we are not yet perfected.

Yes, my reward is complete, I have received Christ, Christ is my reward. In Him I have been given everything. There is nothing that can be added to everything.

Matthew 5
11"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.12Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

​

You have no need of your heavenly reward?

Matthew 16
27 The Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory. His angels will come with him. And he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done.
​

Don't you see yourself receiving this reward when Messiah comes back?

Luke 6
23Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.
​

Why did Messiah continually mention that when he comes back he will bring our reward from heaven?

Now, there are those in the scriptures that are indicated as receiving their reward now. But I do not believe you nor I would want to consider ourselves one of these:

Matthew 6:2

"Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:5

[The Lord's Prayer] "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:16

[Fasting] "And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
​

We have been given all we need to be preserved by G-d in this world. There is a world to come, and when Messiah comes back we will be transformed, putting off this body of sin and imperfection and clothed with a body of perfection. Sorry sir, you are not perfected yet. Neither am I, nobody is. We live in sin, are called to righteousness and by the power of the Spirit live righteously. But we can fall, and have much need to be continually cleansed by the Spirit daily. This is our faith walk.

 

[Steeno7]

No sir, we have a hope of salvation. We will die because of sin, every man does. We have a first fruit of what is to come. He is not come back, He has left us a comforter, even His Spirit, but He has not fulfilled the act of redemption of our sinful bodies. We have Faith that he has made the way for it to happen. And we walk it out through His power. But we are not yet perfected.

Matthew 5
11"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.12Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

​

You have no need of your heavenly reward?

Matthew 16
27 The Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory. His angels will come with him. And he will reward everyone in keeping with what they have done.
​

Don't you see yourself receiving this reward when Messiah comes back?

Luke 6
23Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.
​

Why did Messiah continually mention that when he comes back he will bring our reward from heaven?

Now, there are those in the scriptures that are indicated as receiving their reward now. But I do not believe you nor I would want to consider ourselves one of these:

Matthew 6:2

"Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:5

[The Lord's Prayer] "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:16

[Fasting] "And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
​

We have been given all we need to be preserved by G-d in this world. There is a world to come, and when Messiah comes back we will be transformed, putting off this body of sin and imperfection and clothed with a body of perfection. Sorry sir, you are not perfected yet. Neither am I, nobody is. We live in sin, are called to righteousness and by the power of the Spirit live righteously. But we can fall, and have much need to be continually cleansed by the Spirit daily. This is our faith walk.

Salvation is not some "thing" imparted or dispensed; rather it is the present and ongoing saving activity of Jesus Christ our Savior.

 

[Shema Yisrael]

Salvation is not some "thing" imparted or dispensed; rather it is the present and ongoing saving activity of Jesus Christ our Savior.

So in your understanding was salvation even possible to those before the cross? If so, how?

 

[Steeno7]

So in your understanding was salvation even possible to those before the cross? If so, how?

As a present reality as Christians today enjoy, no. As I have already said, theirs was a prospective faith as Hebrews 11:13 tells us, "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."

 

[Shema Yisrael]

As a present reality as Christians today enjoy, no. As I have already said, theirs was a prospective faith as Hebrews 11:13 tells us, "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."

You may have qualified your 'no' but it remains just as damning. You too are a foreigner on this earth, (not of this world), and you too have yet to receive your promised reward from heaven. We live in a body that sins, and will die accordingly. We need faith in the Spirit to become clean. We are in this type of relationship continually in this world. Seeing through a mirky glass, not knowing what we will be when he returns but knowing we will be like Messiah. We hold on to faith, hope and love, our reward is with Him. What we have received is a down payment, a promise note. We are being prepared on the way to being rewarded. Our full unity with Messiah is complete in his coming back. Not in his departure. We are left waiting for Messiah to redeem us from this world, of which we are not a part of, but living within. He is in us when we are faithful to him. We are 'being made' into a temple of G-d, we are not perfected yet. Least you call G-d a liar and suffer accordingly.

 

[Steeno7]

You may have qualified your 'no' but it remains just as damning. You too are a foreigner on this earth, (not of this world), and you too have yet to receive your promised reward from heaven. We live in a body that sins, and will die accordingly. We need faith in the Spirit to become clean. We are in this type of relationship continually in this world. Seeing through a mirky glass, not knowing what we will be when he returns but knowing we will be like Messiah. We hold on to faith, hope and love, our reward is with Him. What we have received is a down payment, a promise note. We are being prepared on the way to being rewarded. Our full unity with Messiah is complete in his coming back. Not in his departure. We are left waiting for Messiah to redeem us from this world, of which we are not a part of, but living within. He is in us when we are faithful to him. We are 'being made' into a temple of G-d, we are not perfected yet. Least you call G-d a liar and suffer accordingly.

I am fully united with Christ at this very moment. You are certainly free to continue to cling to your faith and hope and love....for myself, I will continue to cling to Him.

 

[from scratch]

You like they are STILL required to have faith in your 'future' salvation. Meaning, you don't possess your salvation any more than they did. You are believing in a promise to come, your future redemption from your body of sin. You 'believe' it has already been accomplished in Messiah. Good, because they also believed it would be accomplished in Messiah. And so lived accordingly to the tests and commands of our Abba.

Grace and Truth were not void before the comming of Messiah, to think that you now have something that was not possible to others. Or is G-d the G-d of the nations only? Our G-d is One, and there is only One way to Him, pre or post Messiah. Or do you believe G-d has forsaken those pre-cross because your false assumption that faith was not imparted to the world before Messiah came in the flesh?

What does salvation mean to you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What does salvation mean to you?

It doesn't really matter what salvation means to Shema Yisrael all that matter is what salvation is. And one thing that salvation is is no longer being under the law.

Romans 6:8-14 8 If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him. 10 As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God. 11 Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus.

12 Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. 13 And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness. 14 For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.​

 

[Shema Yisrael]

What does salvation mean to you?

Forgivness of sins and resurrection from the dead to life eternal. And you?

 

[Shema Yisrael]

It doesn't really matter what salvation means to Shema Yisrael all that matter is what salvation is. And one thing that salvation is is no longer being under the law.

It always matters what the Word means to others. And salvation never came by being under the law.

What matters most to G-d is our love for others. Not how much you say you love or are united with him. Our actions and words expose our heart. Salvation is not an impersonal thing, as if it is between you and your doctrine (not under the law..). It's a very personal thing between G-d and us, and how we address the offer of G-d's salvation is of utmost importance.

My name is Kal

 

[Steeno7]

Forgivness of sins and resurrection from the dead to life eternal.

In whom is your forgiveness of sins? Who is the resurrection? Who IS eternal life?

 

[Shema Yisrael]

In whom is your forgiveness of sins? Who is the resurrection? Who IS eternal life?

Isaiah 42

The Lord's Chosen Servant

1Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. 2 He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street; 3a bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice. 4 He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law. 5 Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:

6 "I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, 7to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness. 8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them."