Not under the law?

[MoreCoffee]

That's right, it's cheap law. Based in the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus. It weakens God’s demand for perfection and breaths life into the old creature and his quest for a righteousness of his own making.

It's a human-tradition-that-nullifies-the-law-of-God rather than cheap law. It is in fact lawlessness in the worst sense because it does exactly what the "traditions of the elders" did when Jesus complained that such traditions were used to nullify the law.

Matthew 15:1-9 KJV 1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
​

 

[Sophrosyne]

The problem with christians "law"yers is they seem to pick which laws they want to follow for some reason.

And they also seem to follow them the way that is easiest for them instead of by the book.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Jesus' own words tend to add fire to the debate more than anything Paul said with Matthew 5:17-18.

 

[from scratch]

Jesus' own words tend to add fire to the debate more than anything Paul said with Matthew 5:17-18.

Yes and Jesus said all things were fulfilled concerning Him as quoted by the dear Dr. Luke in 24:44.

Heb 7:12 shows the jots and titles of the law have indeed been changed or Jesus is a sinner and can't be the Messiah.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I am starting to think the big confusion between "grace christians" and "law christians" is that the law guys think we are obligated to follow the law as christians to maintain spiritual discipline. The grace guys don't see service to the Lord as a obligation, but open submission and love to following God because of grace as their discipline. I could be wrong.

Thats just a brief summary of these repeated discussions I've noticed.

I think you've got a start on it, but it goes farther than this in that Christians were never given the Law to even consider obligation to it. One must become essentially a Jew including circumcision to partake of the Law properly and then there is a lot more "laws" that are in addition to the 10 commandments. Once one obligates themselves legally to the Law by becoming a legal part of Israel (Jew) then one's righteousness is based upon its adherence. In other words we have people who want to push laws on us that aren't ours to begin with that in essence by keeping these laws puts us under a covenant that is inferior to the New Covenant which replaces it for those who believe in Jesus.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I think you've got a start on it, but it goes farther than this in that Christians were never given the Law to even consider obligation to it. One must become essentially a Jew including circumcision to partake of the Law properly and then there is a lot more "laws" that are in addition to the 10 commandments. Once one obligates themselves legally to the Law by becoming a legal part of Israel (Jew) then one's righteousness is based upon its adherence. In other words we have people who want to push laws on us that aren't ours to begin with that in essence by keeping these laws puts us under a covenant that is inferior to the New Covenant which replaces it for those who believe in Jesus.

I think people tend to confuse Gods immutable nature with inclusion of Hebrew law as universal for all and not one just the Israelites, but if that was true why God didn't just sit down with ALL people of ALL nations to clarify the law to ALL people?

 

[SAAN]

Where do you find this in the Bible?

IN regards to:
"We are delivered from the curse of the law. Now when we sin we have grace to repent. If we dont repent we are still under the curse of the law."

This is pretty much all of Paul's teachings.


And for
"
The bible says no murder will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but that is assuming you murdered someone and never repent. But the bible also say not to abuse grace either, ie commit the same sin over and over again."


THOSE WHO WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN.

Galatians 5:19-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[a] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[b] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Ephesians 5:5
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 7:21-23&version=NKJV;NIVMatthew 7:21-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[SAAN]

If fear isn't the motivator, what is?

Are you running scared you missed repenting of any particular sin? Is it sin only if you know about it?

This is not about a sin or particular sin, but mainly to these so called believes that were saved at a young age, but have lived a life that has noting to do with God and goes against most of what Jesus teaches. There are many Christians out there who commit adultery all the time, get drunk all the time, have pre marital sex all the time, and many other things the bible says to not do if you are a believer. So it is basically their lifestyle rather than a sin and repentance to turn away from that sin.

 

[SAAN]

I find that that plumb silly. One isn't bound to the law as long as they're in compliance. Really? Isn't that double speak? Why do the pro law people run from the law to grace when they sin? Why doesn't a criminal ask and beg for the law to be administered?


What does the prophet Jeremiah say about the new covenant? Remember the old covenant doesn't provide for eternal life. If one want eternal life they must participate in the New Covenant which is not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; Jer 31:32.

No one can break a law that has no jurisdiction over them.

People were saved in the Old Covenant just like in the New Covenant through Faith.

 

[SAAN]

The first part of Gal 3 does a great job addressing this issue. I believe it. The law doesn't affect me as a Christian.

Romans 8 also does a great job explaining this.

As a Christian you are still expected to obey Gods commands. While all the animal sacrificial commands for your sins no longer apply as they were ceremonial, everything else still stands an carries over into the New Testament.

 

[Steeno7]

As a Christian you are still expected to obey Gods commands. While all the animal sacrificial commands for your sins no longer apply as they were ceremonial, everything else still stands an carries over into the New Testament.

There it is again....Judaism light.

 

[SAAN]

To all who say Gods commands dont apply to Christians, who did God make the New Covenant with? It wasnt Christians, so to say you dont have to follow Gods commands isnt biblical.

Love God, Love One Another ARE COMMANDS and SUM UP no other Gods, no idolatry, no graven images, dont lie, dont steal, dont kill, dont covet, no adultery, refrain from sexual immorality. You are 100% required to follow these commands as a believer and that is backed from the front of the bible to the back of the bible.

 

[SAAN]

There it is again....Judaism light.

Im not a Jew, what I stated is easily backed from the front of the bible to the back of the book.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I'm starting to think another difference between the grace and law guys is that law guys see it as a labor to show righteousness, but the grace guys see it as a natural behavior as a christian. No different than breathing the air. Someone want to correct me if I'm wrong?
I'm just trying to figure out the issue of difference .

 

[Harry3142]

The video is an example of a knight-works-exegesis argument. The speaker has taken verses out of context and stitched them together in order to have them 'prove' his theology.

For example, the verses in Deuteronomy which he quoted have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation and eternal life. Instead, they were a warning to the Hebrew society as a whole that if their society didn't follow the laws and commandments found in Torah, it would weaken to the point at which it could be conquered and enslaved.

But not only were the Hebrews not to believe that the laws and commandments of Torah were a prerequisite for heaven; they were also not to believe there was a heaven. Instead, they were to see the laws and commandments of Torah solely as the means whereby they could form a cohesive society which would prosper:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There's the reward for keeping the set of laws found in Torah. It has nothing whatsoever to do with eternal life, but instead is a pragmatic, here-and-now contract, with the Hebrews' loyalty to the laws of Torah in this life being rewarded in this life. That's why even today many Jews do not believe that an afterlife exists in any form.

As for the verse he quoted in I John, that epistle states exactly what 'commandments' John is referring to:

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us. (I John 3:21-24,NIV)

 

[from scratch]

To all who say Gods commands dont apply to Christians, who did God make the New Covenant with? It wasnt Christians, so to say you dont have to follow Gods commands isnt biblical.

Love God, Love One Another ARE COMMANDS and SUM UP no other Gods, no idolatry, no graven images, dont lie, dont steal, dont kill, dont covet, no adultery, refrain from sexual immorality. You are 100% required to follow these commands as a believer and that is backed from the front of the bible to the back of the bible.

Yes and the not according to part is being ignored in favor of an invalid personal opinion/agenda unsupportable with the Bible.

 

[from scratch]

Im not a Jew, what I stated is easily backed from the front of the bible to the back of the book.

Where did he say you were/are?

 

[from scratch]

I'm starting to think another difference between the grace and law guys is that law guys see it as a labor to show righteousness, but the grace guys see it as a natural behavior as a christian. No different than breathing the air. Someone want to correct me if I'm wrong?
I'm just trying to figure out the issue of difference .

Hmmm! grace is that easy for sure. I don't think that can be applied to the law even if one says the Spirit enables them. Hehe!

 

[from scratch]

The video is an example of a knight-works-exegesis argument. The speaker has taken verses out of context and stitched them together in order to have them 'prove' his theology.

For example, the verses in Deuteronomy which he quoted have nothing whatsoever to do with salvation and eternal life. Instead, they were a warning to the Hebrew society as a whole that if their society didn't follow the laws and commandments found in Torah, it would weaken to the point at which it could be conquered and enslaved.

But not only were the Hebrews not to believe that the laws and commandments of Torah were a prerequisite for heaven; they were also not to believe there was a heaven. Instead, they were to see the laws and commandments of Torah solely as the means whereby they could form a cohesive society which would prosper:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There's the reward for keeping the set of laws found in Torah. It has nothing whatsoever to do with eternal life, but instead is a pragmatic, here-and-now contract, with the Hebrews' loyalty to the laws of Torah in this life being rewarded in this life. That's why even today many Jews do not believe that an afterlife exists in any form.

As for the verse he quoted in I John, that epistle states exactly what 'commandments' John is referring to:

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us. (I John 3:21-24,NIV)

and Well done!

 

[from scratch]

IN regards to:
"We are delivered from the curse of the law. Now when we sin we have grace to repent. If we dont repent we are still under the curse of the law."

How that is arrived at from Roman 7:6 I'll never understand.

This is pretty much all of Paul's teachings.


And for
"

The bible says no murder will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but that is assuming you murdered someone and never repent. But the bible also say not to abuse grace either, ie commit the same sin over and over again."

And Christians don't practice those things as a lifestyle. Therefore I don't accept that those who do such things are Christians.

THOSE WHO WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN.

Galatians 5:19-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[a] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[b] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But you stopped with the thing the Christian doesn't do? What do the next couple verses say Christians do? And what does it call those actions? I read it calls them fruit. Can a healthy fruit tree no have fruit? It can't help itself. Is it forced? No!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Again it doesn't sound like Christians.

Ephesians 5:5
5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

ditto

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

ditto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 7:21-23&version=NKJV;NIVMatthew 7:21-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Now threaten us with your heavy hammer of death to follow the law. No sale, ever!!!! Hear?