Not under the law?

[Steeno7]

A sin may not cost you salvation, but living a constant sinful lifestyle will if you die unrepentant in your sins. Jesus will say he never knew you.

The wages of sin is death. That has never changed and never will change.

 

[from scratch]

We are delivered from the curse of the law. Now when we sin we have grace to repent. If we dont repent we are still under the curse of the law.

The bible says no murder will inherit the kingdom of heaven, but that is assuming you murdered someone and never repent. But the bible also say not to abuse grace either, ie commit the same sin over and over again.

Where do you find this in the Bible?

 

[Sophrosyne]

A sin may not cost you salvation, but living a constant sinful lifestyle will if you die unrepentant in your sins. Jesus will say he never knew you.

I don't buy the dying unrepentant bit, because if you believe that then everyone probably dies unrepentant of a sin of some sort that they forgot about (didn't repent of). As far as the scripture about Jesus never knowing you it relates more to people "being" good and "doing" good rather than having faith in him for their salvation. It is about works vs faith.

 

[from scratch]

If you follow the teachings of Christ you will look like someone who is keeping the Ten Commandments.

Ah appearances are all that matter. A big NOT!

 

[Sophrosyne]

The wages of sin is death. That has never changed and never will change.

Actually it has changed somewhat as under the Law one could be put to death (physically killed usually by stoning) for infractions of the Law. Jesus did away with that in two ways: first he made a way to God not through the Law of Moses which evades that penalty, and second he destroyed the temple and made it so that the Law could not administer death any more (till the temple is rebuilt).

 

[from scratch]

A sin may not cost you salvation, but living a constant sinful lifestyle will if you die unrepentant in your sins. Jesus will say he never knew you.

If fear isn't the motivator, what is?

Are you running scared you missed repenting of any particular sin? Is it sin only if you know about it?

 

[Shema Yisrael]

My thought is that God says we are no longer under the law, because we are no longer under the law. Simple. No need to jump through so many theological hoops just to try and make it say something it doesn't. Christ IS the end of the law for all who believe. Believe it.

The very sad thing with this mindset is it usually reads or interprets this to mean 'Messiah is the end of Israel' for all who believe. How can the Messiah (savior) of Israel put an end to that which he comes to redeem? Or does Christianity believe the coming of Israel's Messiah abolished our existance?

 

[Steeno7]

Actually it has changed somewhat as under the Law one could be put to death (physically killed usually by stoning) for infractions of the Law. Jesus did away with that in two ways: first he made a way to God not through the Law of Moses which evades that penalty, and second he destroyed the temple and made it so that the Law could not administer death any more (till the temple is rebuilt).

No, it hasn't changed. It was never speaking of physical death. Mans problem is not that he dies physically, mans problem is that he is spiritually dead and needs life....and that as the result of sin. Life that only Christ has.

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

But, the point as it relates to the post I was responding to is that either you are in Christ and HAVE forgiveness and life, or you are dead in your sins and tresspasses. There is no in between state of partially forgiven, partially saved, partially made alive.

 

[Steeno7]

The very sad thing with this mindset is it usually reads or interprets this to mean 'Messiah is the end of Israel' for all who believe. How can the Messiah (savior) of Israel put an end to that which he comes to redeem? Or does Christianity believe the coming of Israel's Messiah abolished our existance?

Only if your existence is dependent upon law, in which case being sad would be the least of your problems.

 

[from scratch]

The very sad thing with this mindset is it usually reads or interprets this to mean 'Messiah is the end of Israel' for all who believe. How can the Messiah (savior) of Israel put an end to that which he comes to redeem? Or does Christianity believe the coming of Israel's Messiah abolished our existance?

I think you're confused. I've never seen that version or interpretation of the verse.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No, it hasn't changed. It was never speaking of physical death. Mans problem is not that he dies physically, mans problem is that he is spiritually dead and needs life....and that as the result of sin. Life that only Christ has.

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

But, the point as it relates to the post I was responding to is that either you are in Christ and HAVE forgiveness and life, or you are dead in your sins and tresspasses. There is no in between state of partially forgiven, partially saved, partially made alive.

I can agree with this, it speaks volumes about the Law one cannot be made partially saved either by it by keeping it nor can one be unsaved by not keeping it if one isn't trying to do so. Salvation is a free gift and God isn't an indian giver he won't take back your salvation each time you sin. I think that some people have mindsets that they never truly were saved by faith but more by fear of being found sinful and being judged for breaking commandments.

 

[from scratch]

I think the misunderstanding is the "not under the law". We are expected to follow Gods laws though. ALL might not apply to us as Christians as some were ceremonial, apllied to priests only, some to women.

Now the big problem comes when you think you can actually gain your righteousness from being obedient to the law and not realize its your faith that saves you. I know many who will eat , sleep, and drink Torah and every other word out their mouth is Torah and think they are so holy because they keep Torah.

The pro law crowd issue is not their trying to be obedient to Gods commands, but its the constant misjudgementation and condemnation of others when they feel they are not living right according to them.

The first part of Gal 3 does a great job addressing this issue. I believe it. The law doesn't affect me as a Christian.

Romans 8 also does a great job explaining this.

 

[from scratch]

The law is for the lawless who break it. As Christians if we are not doing those activities, we are not under the law and dont have to worry about the penalty of breaking it applying to us.
Usually when the Sabbatrian crowd jumps in, they go on the, if you break one commandment you break all of them rant and start comparing Sabbath breaking to murder and stealing.

I find that that plumb silly. One isn't bound to the law as long as they're in compliance. Really? Isn't that double speak? Why do the pro law people run from the law to grace when they sin? Why doesn't a criminal ask and beg for the law to be administered?


What does the prophet Jeremiah say about the new covenant? Remember the old covenant doesn't provide for eternal life. If one want eternal life they must participate in the New Covenant which is not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; Jer 31:32.

No one can break a law that has no jurisdiction over them.

 

[from scratch]

Ummm, no. What you will look like is someone with plucked out eyes and cut off hands.

Now that might make keeping the law easier.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

The problem with christians "law"yers is they seem to pick which laws they want to follow for some reason.

 

[MoreCoffee]

For those of you who enjoy 'reformed' preachers and 'reformed' doctrine this sermon will be of interest and it speaks directly to the thread's topic.

Spiritual Depression - Martyn Lloyd Jones - YouTube

 

[Steeno7]

The problem with christians "law"yers is they seem to pick which laws they want to follow for some reason.

That's right, it's cheap law. Based in the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus. It weakens God’s demand for perfection and breaths life into the old creature and his quest for a righteousness of his own making.

 

[from scratch]

The problem with christians "law"yers is they seem to pick which laws they want to follow for some reason.

The only people I know who really love lawyers are those married to them.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I am starting to think the big confusion between "grace christians" and "law christians" is that the law guys think we are obligated to follow the law as christians to maintain spiritual discipline. The grace guys don't see service to the Lord as a obligation, but open submission and love to following God because of grace as their discipline. I could be wrong.

Thats just a brief summary of these repeated discussions I've noticed.

 

[Shema Yisrael]

I think you're confused. I've never seen that version or interpretation of the verse.

You've not seen the doctrine of supersessionism being taught by Christian leaders? That Messiah is the end of the law given Israel, and that all Jews are to convert to Christianity or be damned, because there is no more 'under the law' (read Judaism) in Messiah? Your right, it is confusing to consider when one reads the Scriptures, and I have seen it rear it's head in most Christian circles I have entered. The whole 'not under the law' spiel usually has it's heart in this doctrine (supersessionism). Which is why I bring it up here, as I believe it is the focus of the objections to the OP.